Nothing new here but have to rant - other than deep tuttle/ tracks, the foil industry has zero standardization. I have n+too many foils in the garage and nothing interchanges. Not masts, not wings, not stabs. Stabs are the closest thing as a few companies have 2 screws 30mm apart but the connection shape still varies.
We all know this and we are all complicit as we all rush out to buy this brand and that. Add to that the 2-3 yr product cycle and good foils go "obsolete" way before they should because you can't update/replace wings, etc. I live in fear that my nice VMG foil gets banged on something and there is no wing available to replace it. There are faster and better foils than the IQfoil but one good thing is that you can still get a replacement 800-900 wing for it. But not any of the others including the popular 725 and 1000. I've got a decent freeride foil from my early days. If I could adapt a modern wing to it, I'd probably keep it. The current wing is a flat G-10 which lacks the roll stability of modern shapes. I can still foil it but it's a step down from my other gear and enough that I don't want to sell it to someone starting out. So, nice carbon mast, two nice fuses down the toilet although I'm contemplating repurposing the mast.
Props to Taaora and a few small, independents for offering an adapters but the number and options are very few. There are a couple of mast companies (Cedrus and No-Limitz) that offer options but the prices are eye-watering but understandable. Cedrus offers something like 15 different adapters for their masts. That's bananas.
Rant over... wind later this week will make me like a goldfish and I'll forget all of this.
Agreed. It's looking like maybe SB has an upgrade path with their masts but it still will require buying a new fuse and wings, so that's well over 1k to play. With slingshot changing to the new system, any old wings and tails won't be compatible.
Hopefully my skills will get better in the meantime so I can actually take advantage of the performance before I upgrade either SB or SS. Some of the improvements help regardless of skill, but this is a very rapidly changing sport at the moment.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
Nothing new here but have to rant - other than deep tuttle/ tracks, the foil industry has zero standardization. I have n+too many foils in the garage and nothing interchanges. Not masts, not wings, not stabs. Stabs are the closest thing as a few companies have 2 screws 30mm apart but the connection shape still varies.
We all know this and we are all complicit as we all rush out to buy this brand and that. Add to that the 2-3 yr product cycle and good foils go "obsolete" way before they should because you can't update/replace wings, etc. I live in fear that my nice VMG foil gets banged on something and there is no wing available to replace it. There are faster and better foils than the IQfoil but one good thing is that you can still get a replacement 800-900 wing for it. But not any of the others including the popular 725 and 1000. I've got a decent freeride foil from my early days. If I could adapt a modern wing to it, I'd probably keep it. The current wing is a flat G-10 which lacks the roll stability of modern shapes. I can still foil it but it's a step down from my other gear and enough that I don't want to sell it to someone starting out. So, nice carbon mast, two nice fuses down the toilet although I'm contemplating repurposing the mast.
Props to Taaora and a few small, independents for offering an adapters but the number and options are very few. There are a couple of mast companies (Cedrus and No-Limitz) that offer options but the prices are eye-watering but understandable. Cedrus offers something like 15 different adapters for their masts. That's bananas.
Rant over... wind later this week will make me like a goldfish and I'll forget all of this.
I agree it's not ideal to need to - but it's not so hard to adapt freeride front and rear wings and foil-masts to fit different brand fuses.
Use the fuse as a mold, level everything up - back in business.
Cutting down wings is also not rocket surgery 
Allow for an occasional failure esp. mast-fuse connection 
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
Nothing new here but have to rant - other than deep tuttle/ tracks, the foil industry has zero standardization. I have n+too many foils in the garage and nothing interchanges. Not masts, not wings, not stabs. Stabs are the closest thing as a few companies have 2 screws 30mm apart but the connection shape still varies.
We all know this and we are all complicit as we all rush out to buy this brand and that. Add to that the 2-3 yr product cycle and good foils go "obsolete" way before they should because you can't update/replace wings, etc. I live in fear that my nice VMG foil gets banged on something and there is no wing available to replace it. There are faster and better foils than the IQfoil but one good thing is that you can still get a replacement 800-900 wing for it. But not any of the others including the popular 725 and 1000. I've got a decent freeride foil from my early days. If I could adapt a modern wing to it, I'd probably keep it. The current wing is a flat G-10 which lacks the roll stability of modern shapes. I can still foil it but it's a step down from my other gear and enough that I don't want to sell it to someone starting out. So, nice carbon mast, two nice fuses down the toilet although I'm contemplating repurposing the mast.
Props to Taaora and a few small, independents for offering an adapters but the number and options are very few. There are a couple of mast companies (Cedrus and No-Limitz) that offer options but the prices are eye-watering but understandable. Cedrus offers something like 15 different adapters for their masts. That's bananas.
Rant over... wind later this week will make me like a goldfish and I'll forget all of this.
I agree it's not ideal to need to - but it's not so hard to adapt freeride front and rear wings and foil-masts to fit different brand fuses.
Use the fuse as a mold, level everything up - back in business.
Cutting down wings is also not rocket surgery
Allow for an occasional failure esp. mast-fuse connection
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..Paducah said..
Nothing new here but have to rant - other than deep tuttle/ tracks, the foil industry has zero standardization. I have n+too many foils in the garage and nothing interchanges. Not masts, not wings, not stabs. Stabs are the closest thing as a few companies have 2 screws 30mm apart but the connection shape still varies.
We all know this and we are all complicit as we all rush out to buy this brand and that. Add to that the 2-3 yr product cycle and good foils go "obsolete" way before they should because you can't update/replace wings, etc. I live in fear that my nice VMG foil gets banged on something and there is no wing available to replace it. There are faster and better foils than the IQfoil but one good thing is that you can still get a replacement 800-900 wing for it. But not any of the others including the popular 725 and 1000. I've got a decent freeride foil from my early days. If I could adapt a modern wing to it, I'd probably keep it. The current wing is a flat G-10 which lacks the roll stability of modern shapes. I can still foil it but it's a step down from my other gear and enough that I don't want to sell it to someone starting out. So, nice carbon mast, two nice fuses down the toilet although I'm contemplating repurposing the mast.
Props to Taaora and a few small, independents for offering an adapters but the number and options are very few. There are a couple of mast companies (Cedrus and No-Limitz) that offer options but the prices are eye-watering but understandable. Cedrus offers something like 15 different adapters for their masts. That's bananas.
Rant over... wind later this week will make me like a goldfish and I'll forget all of this.
I agree it's not ideal to need to - but it's not so hard to adapt freeride front and rear wings and foil-masts to fit different brand fuses.
Use the fuse as a mold, level everything up - back in business.
Cutting down wings is also not rocket surgery
Allow for an occasional failure esp. mast-fuse connection
That's the plan (mast conversion) that but it kind of bites to drop $3-600 US on a wing and then start drilling and grinding on it. Plus, when I adapt the mast, I lose the use of the previous fuses and wings. I've collected wings with the intent of doing some conversions but it turned out easier to get a matching fuse, instead, the windfoil version was so stupid cheap. I wish companies would offer wings with no drillings - that would be cool.
When I started foiling I was using Starboard, 6-8 months in I wanted to upgrade and already was facing some redundancy with fuse so jumped ship.
Been with Sabfoil since and could not be more pleased with continuity so far. Quality of build albeit at a cost has meant wear on kit is minimal so feel no need to upgrade. Let's face it the freeride gear was designed for Balz so it's not like my skills are going to catch up it's potential 
The Phantasm gear has been rock soild with lots of use so far. I dropped some serious coin on the 103W carbon mast, so hopefully it will last a long time. And the front Sab wings fit perfect with the conical reducer washers.
Pretty much every single engineer I have ever met thinks he or she knows it all though
Doesn't matter what the product is, foils, cars, buildings, bridges etc etc someone, somewhere thinks their idea is better than all the rest...
There will never be combability!
Select to expand quoteWsurfAustin said..
The Phantasm gear has been rock soild with lots of use so far. I dropped some serious coin on the 103W carbon mast, so hopefully it will last a long time. And the front Sab wings fit perfect with the conical reducer washers.
The Phantasm is superseded early next year, the One-lock is the new offering from Slingshot.
I went for the 103 phantasm ptm 926 pfi 730 and 850. I didn't realize each front wing needs different screw lenghts.
Select to expand quoteHydrosurf said..
I went for the 103 phantasm ptm 926 pfi 730 and 850. I didn't realize each front wing needs different screw lenghts.
Different thicknesses of foil
I'd like to see a standard joint between mast and fuselage ... or two, one flanged like phantom/F4 and the other slot like Starboard.
There is a lot of difference between how foils are attached to fuselages that greatly impact hydro dynamics but the fuselage to mast is less of a design advantage and more a blocker due to competition.
The reality is companies have spent a **** load of funds tooling up their range. Do you think they are just going to throw the tools away and agree on a common attachment??? Peace in the Middle East would be easier I reckon...
No denying Mr Loves point re: tooling costs etc.
Other side of the coin would be the value in opening up markets.
You may have just come up with THE BEST FOIL EVER!!! however in reality you'll primarily be marketing it to your existing install base plus a (relatively) small number of new clients who are prepared to fork out the $$$ to switch mast/fuse/stab from another brand to have the BEST EVER.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
Already tried him...
What were you asking for?
What was his answer?
Select to expand quoteGwarn said..Paducah said..
Already tried him...
What were you asking for?
What was his answer?
If he'd done any work with IQfoil gear. I thought using my nice, nifty IQ mast with a Slingshot compatible fuse would be a great use of it and justify my keeping the IQ gear. I'm sure I could just send him my mast and he could sort it but the cost of shipping a mast back and forth across the country plus what he should charge kind of makes the project unrealistic. He was very responsive and polite but wasn't acquainted with the IQ stuff.
Last night, it dawned on me that I have a bunch of alu NP masts so I'm going to persuade a friend who's a machinist to make adapters instead of going out and buying a another mast. Still looking at repurposing a different carbon mast for the SS gear.Select to expand quotemr love said..
The reality is companies have spent a **** load of funds tooling up their range. Do you think they are just going to throw the tools away and agree on a common attachment??? Peace in the Middle East would be easier I reckon...
They do well enough on their own without our help. Somewhere, a bunch of Slingshot tooling just went idol so they can update their mast/fuse connections. And, don't even get some of the folks here started on Starboard for a few years making an annual ritual of it. I think, though, in a few years, a couple of the big guys will collaborate and we'll see a collapse in the number of competing systems. I'll probably be left with the equivalent of the tiga, trim, Euro and Meritex fin boxes.
Hate to break it to you but manufacturers don't want compatibility. Want their foils ? you also need to buy their mast, fuselage, and stabilizer. They want to lock you into their ecosystem as a repeat customer since it will be expensive to switch to another brand 
Select to expand quotejdfoils said..
Hate to break it to you but manufacturers don't want compatibility. Want their foils ? you also need to buy their mast, fuselage, and stabilizer. They want to lock you into their ecosystem as a repeat customer since it will be expensive to switch to another brand
Sadly, this is probably true. But I think the logic is often wrong. I've switched brands twice, and know others who have switched more than that. There's a group of foilers who spent a lot of money on their toys, and some extreme cases are even happy to spend more when switching to a new brand. And than there's a group limited by budget restrictions that gets really p*ssed when "their" brand changes things in an incompatible way, making all their gear obsolete when one piece breaks.
But brands that innovate while keeping gear compatible, and deliver a well-engineered and competitive product, can be quite successful in keeping their customers.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
... There are faster and better foils than the IQfoil but one good thing is that you can still get a replacement 800-900 wing for it.
The IQFoil also shows the limits of standardizing too early; Starboard upgraded the front wing mount for their race foils just a year or two later. In windsurfing, it took quite a few years before the rig-board connection was standardized. The boards I learned on, more than 10 years after Jim Drake filed his patents, still had very different connection systems.
My original Patrik foil set could do all disciplines, windsurf ding sup surf with fuses from 500-1100 and wings & stabs to suit and masts from short to tall. The new AEON is for racing but still is customisable. 13 wings 4stabs 10 fuses & 4 masts. We all learnt on hard gear and the market and tech has evolved to now produce easier kit for us. Move the older kit so new kit can fit in the shed. Those with the skills to adapt kit will continue to cause headaches and AhhHaa moments, keep the grey matter bubbling, you're awesome. me, well I'll hold out for the next easier faster kit and let the smart kids do what they do and I'll try to FlyNoDie.
In the early days of windsurfing there were different fin and UJ connections which standardised into today's. We has US box, Powerbox and Tuttle as no single fin box design could meet all needs but it seems to work well. How did this happen?
Select to expand quotepatronus said..
In the early days of windsurfing there were different fin and UJ connections which standardised into today's. We has US box, Powerbox and Tuttle as no single fin box design could meet all needs but it seems to work well. How did this happen?
One thing is that windsurf boards and sails were usually bought from different brands early on. Sure, the windsurfer had its own sail, but other companies soon offered much better alternatives. Connecting them in a standardized way was somewhat important. Similar things happened in foiling with the foil-board connection.
A second thing is that mast bases and fins were a small-ticket item relative to boards and rigs, so if someone else sold them, no big loss for board or sail makers. In contrast, foil masts can be the most expensive piece of foiling equipment, so manufacturers see a big incentive to keep customers limited to their specific masts. The fuse becomes an instrument of locking buyers not just into masts, but also into the other "high revenue" items: front and tail wings.
Finally, standard screw-in mast bases with a mast track were clearly superior to older alternatives like the windsurfer plug-in mast feet. With the different mast-fuselage and fuselage-wing connections, it's much harder to see big differences in performance. Sure, some older models were clearly inferior by design, but many others are pretty similar in how well they work.
Unfortunately, the logical conclusion of this is that the different incompatible foil gear connection systems are here to stay.
