After some 10 foil sessions this season I am considering to buy a dedicated foil sail for 'recreational foiling' . I have a Goya Bolt 127 L, paired with Neilpryde Glide Wind (small) foil. My weight is 79 kg, and I have been using a Goya Nexus 6.7 freeride sail, and a North Sails 8.2 e-Type. Both sails are feeling overpowered in stronger winds (above 15kts). Also I am struggling to maintain constant height, constantly going up or down.
I saw the review of the Sailworks Flyer and they discussed the increased stability the Flyer concept brings with the 2 cams. I very much feel that this is what I need, on top of easier pumping-to-get-going ability.
Uhm, I'm not sure whether a different sail will help you much. The 8.2 sounds very big for your board (+/-75 wide with a 50cm ofo?), I would personally not even try such a combo. The 6.7 seems more reasonable, but is most probably already the max you should want to put on it, especially when combining it with a lower power (meaning due to wing position not that much power in the nose to keep it up with heavy sails) low aspect foil on a board with the straps situated too far forward.
Second, 6.7 is quite big for 15 knots. With that kind of foil and your weight you should be flying with a sail of about a 4.5!
A lot of stability can be gained by moving your straps and mastfoot back and angling the stab for more lift. As is known the pryde foils are quite backfoot heavy, and for 2020 the JP boards have been adapted to have their straps even further back than they were the last few years to compensate. (The backmost position is with the backscrew about 2cm behind the back foilscrew now).
If you want more ease of use, a dedicated foilboard would be a way better investment than a sail, especially at the stage you are in. Personally I mostly see racers who use the dedicated sails, since for the rest of the riders the difference between a normal sail and a foilsail is small. I've tried the loft skyscape and Duotone F-type, and in truth, they're not that different, move the usable range down a little but offer less top-end than they bring in the low-end compared to a regular sail. A lot of the "positive" reviews on freeride foilsails is more the hype of having something new and having just spent a lot of money (so it has to be about $600 better than what you had before otherwise you're stupid) on it instead of it really adding that much to the performance in my opinion.
I have the 5.8 duotone and really like it. I can't compare it to the sail works as I have never even seen one. I am in the UK.
I find the duotone lightweight, super easy to pump and very stable in the conditions I use it in. It is my biggest sail so it gets used from about 10 knots up to about 15 knots.
Not much info for you really but I am happy with it and would buy one again.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..
If you want more ease of use, a dedicated foilboard would be a way better investment than a sail, especially at the stage you are in. Personally I know only racers who use the dedicated sails, since for the rest of the riders the difference between a normal sail and a foilsail is small. I've tried the loft skyscape and Duotone F-type, and in truth, they're not that different, move the usable range down a little but offer less top-end than they bring in the low-end compared to a regular sail. A lot of the "positive" reviews on freeride foilsails is more the hype of having something new and having just spent a lot of money (so it has to be about ?600 better than what you had before otherwise you're stupid) on it instead of it really adding that much to the performance in my opinion.
I agree about the board.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..
Uhm, I'm not sure whether a different sail will help you much. The 8.2 sounds very big for your board (+/-75 wide with a 50cm ofo?), I would personally not even try such a combo. The 6.7 seems more reasonable, but is most probably already the max you should want to put on it, especially when combining it with a lower power (meaning due to wing position not that much power in the nose to keep it up with heavy sails) low aspect foil on a board with the straps situated too far forward.
Second, 6.7 is quite big for 15 knots. With that kind of foil and your weight you should be flying with a sail of about a 4.5!
A lot of stability can be gained by moving your straps and mastfoot back and angling the stab for more lift. As is known the pryde foils are quite backfoot heavy, and for 2020 the JP boards have been adapted to have their straps even further back than they were the last few years to compensate. (The backmost position is with the backscrew about 2cm behind the back foilscrew now).
If you want more ease of use, a dedicated foilboard would be a way better investment than a sail, especially at the stage you are in. Personally I mostly see racers who use the dedicated sails, since for the rest of the riders the difference between a normal sail and a foilsail is small. I've tried the loft skyscape and Duotone F-type, and in truth, they're not that different, move the usable range down a little but offer less top-end than they bring in the low-end compared to a regular sail. A lot of the "positive" reviews on freeride foilsails is more the hype of having something new and having just spent a lot of money (so it has to be about $600 better than what you had before otherwise you're stupid) on it instead of it really adding that much to the performance in my opinion.
Oh wow this is not the answer I was expecting! But that is why I appreciate it very much. Getting a new board is not one of my options right now. Just bought the 127 L Bolt to have a freerace windsurfer, and as its foil ready I thought it be good for dual use. So I must seek to optimize what I have:
1) the mastfoot I always place all the way back. And footstraps are completely rearward (see pic below). Would it help to move the front strap more inward?
2) I've been offered a 5.6 Goya Bounce (2018) for half the price of the DuoTone f-type. As the 6.7 is the smallest sail I have, perhaps the Bounce 5.6 (which fits my mast) is a step toward the recommended 4.5.
3) concerning your comments about 'lower power/lower aspect' foil, are you saying that the NP Glide Wing (small) is perhaps too small (and the board is too big)? I've been toying with the idea to get the medium wing for the NP Glide Wing.
Would these be 3 good options for optimizing?
Also, looking at the picture below, what strikes you? Would the front wing need to be more forward? I've been wondering if the foil is at all right for this board. I saw a RRD ALU 85 Flight with 120 cm fuselage and front wing more towards the front. Would that be better?
As you can see I am a bit lost. Appreciating your feedback!
Select to expand quotenimo1972 said..
I have the 5.8 duotone and really like it. I can't compare it to the sail works as I have never even seen one. I am in the UK.
I find the duotone lightweight, super easy to pump and very stable in the conditions I use it in. It is my biggest sail so it gets used from about 10 knots up to about 15 knots.
Not much info for you really but I am happy with it and would buy one again.
you are mistaken :) This IS very good info! I saw your comments earlier in the F-type discussion, where someone bought a 6.8 but had rigging problems.
What is the bend curve of the mast you use? What is your weight and foiling set up?
Tks!
A total newbie chiming in here... I would also agree on looking into a foil specific board. I learned on a Fanatic Falcon light wind and then bought a Slingshot Levitator 160. The difference is quite remarkable between the 2. The Fanatic does just fine, but the Levitator is so much better all the way around.
As far as sails go, I have the Flyer 6.0 and 7.0 and really like them. That being said, I am considering the Duotone Super Session in a 4.8 for myself. Mainly because my local wind sports dealer (MacKite) is a Duotone dealer. The super session is not necessarily a foil specific sail, but it's the size I'm looking for, and it will work will my Ezzy RDM 430 mast and my current boom.
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..WhiteofHeart said..
Uhm, I'm not sure whether a different sail will help you much. The 8.2 sounds very big for your board (+/-75 wide with a 50cm ofo?), I would personally not even try such a combo. The 6.7 seems more reasonable, but is most probably already the max you should want to put on it, especially when combining it with a lower power (meaning due to wing position not that much power in the nose to keep it up with heavy sails) low aspect foil on a board with the straps situated too far forward.
Second, 6.7 is quite big for 15 knots. With that kind of foil and your weight you should be flying with a sail of about a 4.5!
A lot of stability can be gained by moving your straps and mastfoot back and angling the stab for more lift. As is known the pryde foils are quite backfoot heavy, and for 2020 the JP boards have been adapted to have their straps even further back than they were the last few years to compensate. (The backmost position is with the backscrew about 2cm behind the back foilscrew now).
If you want more ease of use, a dedicated foilboard would be a way better investment than a sail, especially at the stage you are in. Personally I mostly see racers who use the dedicated sails, since for the rest of the riders the difference between a normal sail and a foilsail is small. I've tried the loft skyscape and Duotone F-type, and in truth, they're not that different, move the usable range down a little but offer less top-end than they bring in the low-end compared to a regular sail. A lot of the "positive" reviews on freeride foilsails is more the hype of having something new and having just spent a lot of money (so it has to be about $600 better than what you had before otherwise you're stupid) on it instead of it really adding that much to the performance in my opinion.
Oh wow this is not the answer I was expecting! But that is why I appreciate it very much. Getting a new board is not one of my options right now. Just bought the 127 L Bolt to have a freerace windsurfer, and as its foil ready I thought it be good for dual use. So I must seek to optimize:
1) the mastfoot I always place all the way back. And footstraps are completely outward, but can move 1 hole more rearwards. Will try this out.
2) I've been offered a 5.6 Goya Bounce (2018) for half the price of the DuoTone. As the 6.7 is the smallest sail I have to perhaps the Bounce is a good route toward the recommended 4.5.
3) concerning your comments about 'lower power/lower aspect' foil, are you saying that the NP Glide Wing (small) is perhaps too small (and the board is too big)? I've been toying with the idea to get the medium wing for the NP Glide Wing.
Would these be 3 good options for optimizing?
Tks WoH!
Noo no I dont think its too small, its a very lifty wing, just not such a powerful foil. Its a very hard difference to explain actually... The starboard race is a very powerful foil, but the standard 800 front wing is not a very lifty wing. The position of the front wing determines the power you get, in the last year I've come to see "power" from the foil as the kind of power needed to go upwind, fly early with a good pumping technique, carry bigger sails and stay balanced noseup when doing so, and "lift" as raw power from the wing. A low power high lift foil would be your low aspect NP glide or the I84 Slingshot. The wings are very lifty and dont take much technique to fly early, but they dont have the power to carry heavy sails well and dont excel in upwind performance. This means that the foils are excelent for a freeride purpose with a smaller sail ;).
EDIT: I dont know how much the difference would be between the S and M wings and whether it would be worth it, also partly because of the different design objective for the M, possibly being a profile which is "too slow".
I recently got on a high lift foil (SS i84) with a free ride 8.0 sail. I think I see MProj's point.
1st off, stability mostly comes from the length of the fuse first, then the sizes of the wing/stab second. If altitude stability is the issue, seek a longer fuse. As for angling the stab, don't do it. It's a complete joke. People angle stabs to help them get up (or lack of technique), but once up, you're fighting a force that constantly wants to pitch the board upward; different speeds will make you do some unnecessary weight shifting and cause instability at high speeds.
As for sails. You cannot go wrong with getting a foil specific sail. So if that's in the budget, do it. I have found that the foil specific sails make it easier on the sailor to focus on their foiling technique without getting all messed up with a sail that is fighting them. As for the choices above, i'd go with the non-cambered sail. I still don't understand (physics wise) why cambers help you once you're in flight. I used to use cambered sails foiling, but once up, you don't need all the draft/cord at all; you need flat. If you can, you should consider the new Hydra sport; its super light, easy to pump, and does VERY well in gusty winds (doesn't throw you off your game); and it flattens out automatically once you're in a flight. The sails will last and have been proven over time. Foiling is still so new, and my guesses are you'll be upgrading your foil set or board next.
Happy sailing!
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..nimo1972 said..
I have the 5.8 duotone and really like it. I can't compare it to the sail works as I have never even seen one. I am in the UK.
I find the duotone lightweight, super easy to pump and very stable in the conditions I use it in. It is my biggest sail so it gets used from about 10 knots up to about 15 knots.
Not much info for you really but I am happy with it and would buy one again.
you are mistaken :) This IS very good info! I saw your comments earlier in the F-type discussion, where someone bought a 6.8 but had rigging problems.
What is the bend curve of the mast you use? What is your weight and foiling set up?
Tks!
I use a unifiber 400 mast constant curve.
I am about 78 kgs and ride a wizard 125 with infinity 76 wing.
when I was first foiling I used a 5.8 loft free ride sail, 6 battens no cams. the problem with that sail was if I had enough wind to fill the sail I had too much wind! the duotone stays filled because of the cams. it rotates really soft and easy though. not at all like a cammed sail.
10 sessions in, you will be struggling with stability.
Also, 50 sessions you will find stability challenging in gusty breezes.
Above 15 knots, just windsurf.
Just buy used 4.0 and 5.0 sails.
My 2 cents...
You're rigging way too big.
That NP small wing is so tiny. I don't know why NP sells it with that wing. I've windsurfed the NP large wing. This is equal to the SS 76. That's more where you want to be on wing size. If the large wing scares you, at least get the Medium wing. NP small is not a great wing.
Thanks everyone... I must say its not getting any easier... I think in coming days when there is 10/15 kts I will rig all my sails at once, and try them all out in similar conditions.. just to gather data on what feels best.
By the way, anyone seen this review about the Flyer: groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/28754384?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,40,28754384
To be taken seriously?? Or BS?
I have a Flyer 7.0, the earlier one with the 2 cams and 4 battens.
I completely agree with the reviewer that you need to limit this sail to lighter conditions. When the wind is gusty, this sail becomes unruly. When I complained to BP about this, he said, yup, it's the 4 battens talking. When the wind is 13-15 mph and reasonably steady, this sail is a delight to use.
Yesterday I rigged this sail for some foiling in 10-20 mph gusty conditions. It was nearly impossible to get it dialed in. When I switched over to a 20 year old Sailworks XT 6.4, everything got a lot easier. Same for a XT 7.4. Those old XTs have 3 cams with 6 battens and a T-top while still being light weight. They are like the Energizer Bunny: they just keep going and going and going....
Yes, this is exactly the reason they added a batten to the Flyer 7.0 to make it the same 5-batten sail as their Flyer 8.2. I have not tried the newer 7.0, but local reports are that it is much more stable in gusty winds.
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..
By the way, anyone seen this review about the Flyer: groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/28754384?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,40,28754384
To be taken seriously?? Or BS?
That review makes perfect sense to me. The point is that freeride foiling will typically use a sail 1.5m smaller than freeride windsurfing in the same conditions. So it makes sense that my 8.2 Flyer is optimised for a completely different wind range to my 8.0 GTX - that would need to be compared to a 6.5M foil sail for windrange. Foil racing is, of course, a different matter, and those use more battens. Anyhow Sailworks did add a batten to the 7M, so appear to agree with the reviewer, to some degree at least.
I don't think there's any controversy that the most important issue in foiling is matching your board to your foil (& fuselage). In my opinion the sail issue is still significant, but a sail doesn't necessarily have to be marketed as a foil sail to work well in practice. To me the most important thing is avoiding too loose a leech. That tends to lead to altitude instability. You can rig a freerace with a little less downhaul but take care, I broke a batten that way and it was a PIA to fix. OTH I've a wave sail and a longboard sail that both foil nicely, so go ahead and experiment.
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
My 2 cents...
You're rigging way too big.
That NP small wing is so tiny. I don't know why NP sells it with that wing. I've windsurfed the NP large wing. This is equal to the SS 76. That's more where you want to be on wing size. If the large wing scares you, at least get the Medium wing. NP small is not a great wing.
This guy below would disagree. I think we need to be careful about the idea that everyone needs a 1500 cm2 wing for all conditions. I'm 70ish kg and I'm off the water pretty much before everyone at my spot with the same size sail. A few i76s and me with my 1000cm higher aspect wing. I have more experience than they do so that helps. Is the i76 nice? Sure it is. But a lot of the world is fine in lighter winds with 900-1200 wings for about this body weight, especially in flatter water. If you are 90-100kg, I fully get that it's a different conversation.
It's in French but this guy is doing just fine with the NP Glide small
Select to expand quoteDWF said..
My 2 cents...
You're rigging way too big.
That NP small wing is so tiny. I don't know why NP sells it with that wing. I've windsurfed the NP large wing. This is equal to the SS 76. That's more where you want to be on wing size. If the large wing scares you, at least get the Medium wing. NP small is not a great wing.
I wouldn't say the NP small wing is the problem. I sailed with it with the NS 8.2 e-type, with the back wing in neutral, and it constantly created lift. I am 75 kg. The problem is rather stability, steady trim of the foil. It's either up, too high, and then stall, splash. Here two videos of me with the biggest sail (my heaviest set up). Foil seems to generate enough lift.
May or may not be helpful, but I messaged Duotone yesterday and asked about the Super Session 4.8 as a foiling sail. The guy who replied said it makes a great foiling sail. I was mainly looking at it because it gets me down in the 5.0 + or - sails size that I feel I need. So I ordered one.
This was their reply to my question as to whether the Super session would be a good foiling sail....
Hey Ben, the Super Session works really well for foiling actually. The draft is high and forward, so you get plenty of lift out of it that helps get you going early. The 5 batten design is awesome because it offers great stability for going fast and sailing powered up when you get better at foiling. I'd recommend rigging it with less downhaul and more outhaul for foiling performance.Let me know if you have any other questions on them.
-Jon
MProject04, are you using your harness? Were you in the harness when you flew too high?
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..
Thanks everyone... I must say its not getting any easier... I think in coming days when there is 10/15 kts I will rig all my sails at once, and try them all out in similar conditions.. just to gather data on what feels best.
By the way, anyone seen this review about the Flyer: groups.io/g/nw-windtalk/topic/28754384?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,40,28754384
To be taken seriously?? Or BS?
I have the 4.5, 5.2, 6.0, 7.0 2018 Flyers.
I don't notice anything wrong with the 7.0. But I would never use it in 20. It's a 10-15 sail. I use the 6.0 as soon as I can. The 6 is my favorite size for my favorite wind....13-20 mph
I looked at the newer 7.0. It's way bigger. Mast too tall and boom too long for my gear. Plus the weight of the extra batten. Not for what I want.
The 5-batten 7.0 has a slightly higher aspect ratio than the 4-batten 7.0.
Going to higher AR is the trend going forward, especially for racing. Foil racers in Florida (and elsewhere) are cutting down their formula 12.5 to 10.0 by shortening the battens, but keeping the long luff length.
Yesterday on the Snake River I foiled my brains out with my trusty old XT6.4. My friend foiled his brains out with a Goya Nexus 6.4. It was too windy (14-16 mph) for my Flyer 7.0 4-batten.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..
MProject04, are you using your harness? Were you in the harness when you flew too high?
Hi, yes! In all of my sessions where I struggle to maintain level trim I happened to use harness. My harness lines in the video are the longer ones I have.
In a session more recently I switched to my shortest harness lines. Improved a bit but still too much up/down.
The other day here on the forum I read an advice to learn foiling without using the harness, this way you can learn / become more aware of weight transfer / pressure between front and back foot. I tried this in my very last session, and had my longest flight ever (not perfect but I felt much more aware of what my feet were doing)
Select to expand quoteexcav8ter said..
May or may not be helpful, but I messaged Duotone yesterday and asked about the Super Session 4.8 as a foiling sail. The guy who replied said it makes a great foiling sail. I was mainly looking at it because it gets me down in the 5.0 + or - sails size that I feel I need. So I ordered one.
This was their reply to my question as to whether the Super session would be a good foiling sail....
Hey Ben, the Super Session works really well for foiling actually. The draft is high and forward, so you get plenty of lift out of it that helps get you going early. The 5 batten design is awesome because it offers great stability for going fast and sailing powered up when you get better at foiling. I'd recommend rigging it with less downhaul and more outhaul for foiling performance.Let me know if you have any other questions on them.
-Jon
I saw your post on the DuoTone site this morning! 
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..Paducah said..
MProject04, are you using your harness? Were you in the harness when you flew too high?
Hi, yes! In all of my sessions where I struggle to maintain level trim I happened to use harness. My harness lines in the video are the longer ones I have.
In a session more recently I switched to my shortest harness lines. Improved a bit but still too much up/down.
The other day here on the forum I read an advice to learn foiling without using the harness, this way you can learn / become more aware of weight transfer / pressure between front and back foot. I tried this in my very last session, and had my longest flight ever (not perfect but I felt much more aware of what my feet were doing)
Thanks. Let us know how you get on with the cammed sail. I'm curious how you'll find it. Good luck.
Just got 4.8 and 5.2 SuperSessions.
About a month ago, used 6.6 Ezzy Infinity with Naish setup, worked great in 5-12 mph breeze.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Just got 4.8 and 5.2 SuperSessions.
About a month ago, used 6.6 Ezzy Infinity with Naish setup, worked great in 5-12 mph breeze.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's going to try the Super session for wind foiling.
I agree with WhiteofHeart. The board is important. You could try removing the back foot straps, gives more room to move the back foot around. Also, see if you can replace the mast with the NP pinky 85cm mast. I know someone did this on the NP Glide to give more scope on height control. Hope this helps.
Select to expand quotePaducah said..MProject04 said..Paducah said..
MProject04, are you using your harness? Were you in the harness when you flew too high?
Hi, yes! In all of my sessions where I struggle to maintain level trim I happened to use harness. My harness lines in the video are the longer ones I have.
In a session more recently I switched to my shortest harness lines. Improved a bit but still too much up/down.
The other day here on the forum I read an advice to learn foiling without using the harness, this way you can learn / become more aware of weight transfer / pressure between front and back foot. I tried this in my very last session, and had my longest flight ever (not perfect but I felt much more aware of what my feet were doing)
Thanks. Let us know how you get on with the cammed sail. I'm curious how you'll find it. Good luck.
hmm.. it was 9-10 kts, and I was not making any speed to reach lift off.. So I ended up practicing light wind gybes, and watching the sunset!
Select to expand quotepcw said..
I agree with WhiteofHeart. The board is important. You could try removing the back foot straps, gives more room to move the back foot around. Also, see if you can replace the mast with the NP pinky 85cm mast. I know someone did this on the NP Glide to give more scope on height control. Hope this helps.
Will try this: removing the back footstraps.
Do you know of the pink NP mast fits on the NP glide wing fuse without further modifications?
I saw a picture once of a pink NP mast that looked bent... perhaps structural issues there?
