i am a japanese foil beginner. i am sorry for my poor english.
strong wind often makes me luff up against my intension. so i would like to bear away a little.
at such time, i always sheet in and send the mast to the nose, or i have my front foot kick to the nose...but i do not think they work well...
what should i do for bearing away? and for continue to go downwind?
Luffing up wind in a gust is a natural reaction to the sudden lift you get from the foil. i don't think i've talked to anyone who hasn't experienced it while foiling.
generally i'll keep my back foot out of the strap (except in light wind) if im trying to hold a course even slightly off wind. If you want to go right off wind it then also becomes about bearing off further when you get hit by a gust.
controlling the up and down (pitching) in gusts takes some getting used to as well. As you get better you'll find it becomes easier to stay on a steady course and not luff up to react.
Are you comfortable in the back strap? We all started with the back strap onboard and make it big so exiting is easier. back foot out of strap when I head off the wind and a little mor central.
Looks like you are getting some pretty good stable flights.
Mostly I turn downwind by using the back foot to angle the board to leeward, resulting in turning down wind. But to do this my toes are usually across the center line, which I do not see your foot doing. Sometimes I turn downwind without foot pressure by moving the sail forward and to windward, kind of like you are turning a longboard downwind.
PS I would take that back strap off or at the minimum move it inboard. I think the outboard settings are move for race oriented foils
PPS usually when I hit a strong gust I weight my front foot and continue straight. If that is not enough then I will turn up wind until things settle down
> Subsonic
thank you for your reply.
i have tried the 'back foot out' method. see from 2:14 in the video, please.
i managed to keep foiling, but it was very sensitve at sail angle control, wasn't it?
if i get better, i might be able to go downwind with the sheeting in, i hope...
> BSN101
thank you for your reply.
i don't think my back foot is uncomfortable...indeed, infinity99 with star.foil122 needs a little more back foot pressure, but not so uncomfortable.
i have tried the back strap more inside, but the result was worse...i was made luff up more.
i might have a bad habit...for example, the back foot tends to kick laterally...
> thedoor
thank you.
so i should move the back strap inward...
i have tried it, but at that time, the result was worse...i was made luff up more.
i might have better try no back strap...
konichi wa Ameo san !
I used that board a whole week with the supercruiser, for your (apparent) size you could try moving the rear strap up a couple of holes.
It sails really well with both feet in the straps. Even going downwind
My advice would also be to hook in (use the harness), it should make your flights more stable and give you that little extra power to get more lift.
To bear away I let myself get lifted by the sail, as you unload the windward rail (and therefore perhaps lift it a little, although I dont think I go past horizontal), get more upright and push through the toes of the front foot your board bears away. Pretty much the same thing one would do on planing windsurf kit, except for the slight towindward movement of the sail to "catapult you forward" since thats a little too scary most of the time ;).
If you want to control the gusts while going downwind, just bear away even further. Across the wind I also have a harder time controlling the board in gusts, I bend my knees more and put my weight down and into the harness to keep the board accelerating if a gust hits, that seems the only way for me. I also bank my board quite hard towindward and have my sail very upright and forward, but I'm not sure if that is a "cause" or an "effect" in the process if you get what I mean.. If you have the harnesslines positioned correctly your sail should be able to open without the nose lifting (again, same as in slalomwindsurfing).
Select to expand quoteseanhogan said..
konichi wa Ameo san !
I used that board a whole week with the supercruiser, for your (apparent) size you could try moving the rear strap up a couple of holes.
It sails really well with both feet in the straps. Even going downwind
My advice would also be to hook in (use the harness), it should make your flights more stable and give you that little extra power to get more lift.
konbanwa seanhogan san!
but an ordinary tuttle box board with slingshot infinity99 needs the backward foot strap as possible. i have tried a little more forward setting, but it needed much more back foot pressure. so i think it might be difficult...
the sail joint could be a little more backward...(now the distance between the front tuttle box bolt and the joint is 109 cm).
i know i should use the harness...i am a just beginner...i will practice.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..
To bear away I let myself get lifted by the sail, as you unload the windward rail (and therefore perhaps lift it a little, although I dont think I go past horizontal), get more upright and push through the toes of the front foot your board bears away. Pretty much the same thing one would do on planing windsurf kit, except for the slight towindward movement of the sail to "catapult you forward" since thats a little too scary most of the time ;).
If you want to control the gusts while going downwind, just bear away even further. Across the wind I also have a harder time controlling the board in gusts, I bend my knees more and put my weight down and into the harness to keep the board accelerating if a gust hits, that seems the only way for me. I also bank my board quite hard towindward and have my sail very upright and forward, but I'm not sure if that is a "cause" or an "effect" in the process if you get what I mean.. If you have the harnesslines positioned correctly your sail should be able to open without the nose lifting (again, same as in slalomwindsurfing).
oh...it sounds scary...
before i started windfoil, i had been a beginner of windsurfing also. the level was that i managed to do planing if lucky.
i have never done a carving gybe.
so my way would be so long...
Ameo. What's your height and weight please? Do you use the 42cm stabilizer or the 48cm for the I99 wing.
IMHO: Hooking in error at 4:14 and 5:15. Wrong Right???
In both cases good flight than you hook in by PULLING your arms towards you; this causes the sail to move towards you and disturbs the counter weight of the board and weight is transferred windward. Move/thrust your hips towards the harness but keep sail trim and body height the same.
Notice at 4:14 there's a lot of distance between the hook and the harness lines 3cm gap. Is the boom too low or lines too long?
Elbows are bent most of the time in an outward angle. 1) Should arms be straighter, so there's a solid connection between body and sail; if there is a correction needed the body shifts to transfer weight not by flexing the arm. Does it matter?
Refresher for hooking in @4:24
Select to expand quoteVCRWoody said..
IMHO: Hooking in error at 4:14 and 5:15. Wrong Right???
In both cases good flight than you hook in by PULLING your arms towards you; this causes the sail to move towards you and disturbs the counter weight of the board and weight is transferred windward. Move/thrust your hips towards the harness but keep sail trim and body height the same.
Notice at 4:14 there's a lot of distance between the hook and the harness lines 3cm gap. Is the boom too low or lines too long?
Elbows are bent most of the time in an outward angle. 1) Should arms be straighter, so there's a solid connection between body and sail; if there is a correction needed the body shifts to transfer weight not by flexing the arm. Does it matter?
Refresher for hooking in @4:24
i am 171 cm (5.61 ft) and 67 kg (147.7 lbs). and i use infinity99 with 48 cm rear stabilizer.
thank you! this video is what i must watch!
i will try next time with straight front arm and leg, bend back leg, and the shorter harness lines.
but one more question?
the stretched front leg and the bend back leg tend to increase the rear foot load? and so it should tend to occur a catapult?
Select to expand quoteameo said..
i am a japanese foil beginner. i am sorry for my poor english.
strong wind often makes me luff up against my intension. so i would like to bear away a little.
at such time, i always sheet in and send the mast to the nose, or i have my front foot kick to the nose...but i do not think they work well...
what should i do for bearing away? and for continue to go downwind?
When you sail with open sail like you do on video,does board want go upwind?
I think you must sheet in more to bear away..
Nice video. You are really well on your way! Congratulations! Here is a couple of things that I would try:
- Hook in: it will stabilize the sail. which is now moving quite a lot and your arms must be getting tired doing all the work. I admire how long you can sail without the hooking in! but you need to anchor the sail with your weight.
- Front strap only. In the beginning I went all the way: both front and rear footstraps and hooked in, and there was too much going on for me to understand what was happening in order to control. So I took some advice on this forum and started sailing with front foot in strap only, and hooked in. My back foot was free to feel and experiment, and try to learn how to shift the weight forward. It really helped me. I can see you already doing lot of front strap only, but it should be with the hooking in.
- it looks like you are too much in 'windsurf mode' i.e. leaning out to the back, and far out. Try to stand more upright AND shift weight forward. If your nose touches the water too much while moving forward, try to move the mastfoot a bit to the back. Its important to find your own balance in terms of mastfoot position. And it will shift over time as your own style and weight distribution is also moving as you get more comfy.
- It's important to shift weight forward so that the board flies horizontal/level after take off. That way your front wing doesnt pushes against a mountain of water, and keeps stalling. The front wing needs to glide over that mountain of water (rather than against it). Its something you can almost feel... that the wing underneath becomes slippery. Beginners often can take off easily, i.e. board goes up, make some speed, but then they keep foiling with the board pointing 1-3 degrees up (i.e. still in take off stance). While the foil does generate lift, but also lots of drag... drag reduces speed, and the foil loses lift. And you touch the water again. When you learn to shift your weight forward, and stand more upright, and your sail is also more upright, the board levels from those 1-3 degrees to 0, and then the speed kicks in. Speed = lift. Lots of speed is so much lift that you can even point your nose -1 degrees. In this zone you also get nervous because you know that if you go -2 degrees you can plunge into the water!
- feel the entire underside of your foot against the board: when i get in trouble, a bit all over the place, I try to focus on feeling the board with my feet. I try to feel the whole surface, where I stand on the board. As I do this I start to feel every micro input the foil and board are giving me. It just helps you to become more active and aware instead of passive and letting everything to happen to you in that moment.
These tips by Sam Ross really helped me to be more relaxed while hooking in
The Getwindsurfing video posted is for Finning not Foiling. The basic such as hooking in applies to both. The bent/straight leg advice is for Finning. I would strongly suggest you follow the advice given in this thread.
If you haven't already done so I would also strongly suggest you look the at Sam Ross Flight School V2.0 playlist. He covers the Downwind section. In general, I found Sam Ross and Get Windsurfing videos very informative.
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLP7KGVZy0gFSyhgcUVkqS4_nSAlkFnaiW
I'm curious as to why you're using the 48cm and not the 42cm. I think the 48cm is holding you back from progressing.
In the CoreAS review of the I99 he weights in at 90Kg and used the 42cm. 10:23.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Full-Review--Infinity-99-wing-part-2
The advantage of the 48cm is for power/foil pumping whereas the 42cm is for control/speed.
Select to expand quotefpw9082 said..ameo said..
i am a japanese foil beginner. i am sorry for my poor english.
strong wind often makes me luff up against my intension. so i would like to bear away a little.
at such time, i always sheet in and send the mast to the nose, or i have my front foot kick to the nose...but i do not think they work well...
what should i do for bearing away? and for continue to go downwind?
When you sail with open sail like you do on video,does board want go upwind?
I think you must sheet in more to bear away..
sam ross sensei says that there are two ways to go downwind, one is sheet in and more speed ,and the other is opening the sail, the back foot out of strap, the later is easier. so i tried the easier method...
indeed it was easier but too sensitive to control the sail trim. and for the trim i had to bent my elbows, it was so hard for my forearms...
so i would like to master the faster method, but sam ross sensei said just sheet in. i don't think just sheeting in does not result going downwind, does it?
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..
Nice video. You are really well on your way! Congratulations! Here is a couple of things that I would try:
- Hook in: it will stabilize the sail. which is now moving quite a lot and your arms must be getting tired doing all the work. I admire how long you can sail without the hooking in! but you need to anchor the sail with your weight.
- Front strap only. In the beginning I went all the way: both front and rear footstraps and hooked in, and there was too much going on for me to understand what was happening in order to control. So I took some advice on this forum and started sailing with front foot in strap only, and hooked in. My back foot was free to feel and experiment, and try to learn how to shift the weight forward. It really helped me. I can see you already doing lot of front strap only, but it should be with the hooking in.
- it looks like you are too much in 'windsurf mode' i.e. leaning out to the back, and far out. Try to stand more upright AND shift weight forward. If your nose touches the water too much while moving forward, try to move the mastfoot a bit to the back. Its important to find your own balance in terms of mastfoot position. And it will shift over time as your own style and weight distribution is also moving as you get more comfy.
- It's important to shift weight forward so that the board flies horizontal/level after take off. That way your front wing doesnt pushes against a mountain of water, and keeps stalling. The front wing needs to glide over that mountain of water (rather than against it). Its something you can almost feel... that the wing underneath becomes slippery. Beginners often can take off easily, i.e. board goes up, make some speed, but then they keep foiling with the board pointing 1-3 degrees up (i.e. still in take off stance). While the foil does generate lift, but also lots of drag... drag reduces speed, and the foil loses lift. And you touch the water again. When you learn to shift your weight forward, and stand more upright, and your sail is also more upright, the board levels from those 1-3 degrees to 0, and then the speed kicks in. Speed = lift. Lots of speed is so much lift that you can even point your nose -1 degrees. In this zone you also get nervous because you know that if you go -2 degrees you can plunge into the water!
- feel the entire underside of your foot against the board: when i get in trouble, a bit all over the place, I try to focus on feeling the board with my feet. I try to feel the whole surface, where I stand on the board. As I do this I start to feel every micro input the foil and board are giving me. It just helps you to become more active and aware instead of passive and letting everything to happen to you in that moment.
These tips by Sam Ross really helped me to be more relaxed while hooking in
Hopes this helps a bit and enjoy the journey to longer and steadier flights!
thank you!
yes, my forearm was so tired.
thanks to many advises at this forum, i will try next time, 'no back foot strap' and 'hooking in', they should be what i should practice now.
the distance between the mast foot and the front tuttle box bolt is 109 cm.
i think i can change it to 107 cm but it may be limit.
Select to expand quoteVCRWoody said..
The Getwindsurfing video posted is for Finning not Foiling. The basic such as hooking in applies to both. The bent/straight leg advice is for Finning. I would strongly suggest you follow the advice given in this thread.
If you haven't already done so I would also strongly suggest you look the at Sam Ross Flight School V2.0 playlist. He covers the Downwind section. In general, I found Sam Ross and Get Windsurfing videos very informative.
www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLP7KGVZy0gFSyhgcUVkqS4_nSAlkFnaiW
I'm curious as to why you're using the 48cm and not the 42cm. I think the 48cm is holding you back from progressing.
In the CoreAS review of the I99 he weights in at 90Kg and used the 42cm. 10:23.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Full-Review--Infinity-99-wing-part-2
The advantage of the 48cm is for power/foil pumping whereas the 42cm is for control/speed.
?list=PLHYh9gxC2LTphnrV0K0f6VHVfCRdWAPEf
I would try the mast/fuselage connection in position B instead of C. See how it feels; experiment!
Let us know how you progress.
so i mistaken...
i should not do the bent/straight leg method...
yes, i will try to hook in.
rc glider is also one of my hobbies. and so i calculate 'the tail volume ratio', it should be between 0.5 - 1.0, i think.
i99 + 48rs: 0.62
i99 + 42rs: 0.39
i84 + 48rs: 0.70
i84 + 42rs: 0.36
i76 + 48rs: 1.25
i76 + 42rs: 0.79
so i think the best combinations are (i99 + 48rs), (i84 + 48rs) and (i76 + 42rs). maybe...
does i99 with B position need more back foot pressure? even with C position needs quite much back foot pressure for a beginner like me.
Hi Ameo
As VCRwoody mentioned the 48 rear wing on the i99 is probably causing this unbalance, you are a pretty light guy and you are dealing with a huge amount of foil pressure with the i99/48 rear.
I use B with the i99 and 42 rear (178cm 90kg) the only time I feel back foot pressure is in the gybes so I lean back alot more than say the i84.
Select to expand quoteCoreAS said..
Hi Ameo
As VCRwoody mentioned the 48 rear wing on the i99 is probably causing this unbalance, you are a pretty light guy and you are dealing with a huge amount of foil pressure with the i99/48 rear.
I use B with the i99 and 42 rear (178cm 90kg) the only time I feel back foot pressure is in the gybes so I lean back alot more than say the i84.
hi CoreAS
oh i see.
so i will try also infinity99 + 42 rear stab. next time.
Select to expand quoteameo said..fpw9082 said..ameo said..
i am a japanese foil beginner. i am sorry for my poor english.
strong wind often makes me luff up against my intension. so i would like to bear away a little.
at such time, i always sheet in and send the mast to the nose, or i have my front foot kick to the nose...but i do not think they work well...
what should i do for bearing away? and for continue to go downwind?
When you sail with open sail like you do on video,does board want go upwind?
I think you must sheet in more to bear away..
sam ross sensei says that there are two ways to go downwind, one is sheet in and more speed ,and the other is opening the sail, the back foot out of strap, the later is easier. so i tried the easier method...
indeed it was easier but too sensitive to control the sail trim. and for the trim i had to bent my elbows, it was so hard for my forearms...
so i would like to master the faster method, but sam ross sensei said just sheet in. i don't think just sheeting in does not result going downwind, does it?
No it doesnt, but if you sheet in and let your weight be lifted a little you will! As long as your weight is on your heels / the windward side of the board you're not going to bear away.
When practicing I would start in only underpowered / controllable conditions, there are only few who go downwind in the straps! Most, even loads of racers, use the easy method.
Select to expand quoteWhiteofHeart said..ameo said..fpw9082 said..ameo said..
i am a japanese foil beginner. i am sorry for my poor english.
strong wind often makes me luff up against my intension. so i would like to bear away a little.
at such time, i always sheet in and send the mast to the nose, or i have my front foot kick to the nose...but i do not think they work well...
what should i do for bearing away? and for continue to go downwind?
When you sail with open sail like you do on video,does board want go upwind?
I think you must sheet in more to bear away..
sam ross sensei says that there are two ways to go downwind, one is sheet in and more speed ,and the other is opening the sail, the back foot out of strap, the later is easier. so i tried the easier method...
indeed it was easier but too sensitive to control the sail trim. and for the trim i had to bent my elbows, it was so hard for my forearms...
so i would like to master the faster method, but sam ross sensei said just sheet in. i don't think just sheeting in does not result going downwind, does it?
No it doesnt, but if you sheet in and let your weight be lifted a little you will! As long as your weight is on your heels / the windward side of the board you're not going to bear away.
When practicing I would start in only underpowered / controllable conditions, there are only few who go downwind in the straps! Most, even loads of racers, use the easy method.
i see well, thanks to your advice.
i would practice the easier method well.
Hi Ameo
I watched your video
You are going good for a beginner
You have been given great tips from accomplished windfoilers
Time on the water sailing as many days a month as possible is the best way
Long day sessions are the best for improvement
Try to stay out on the water 2 to 3 hours each sailing day
I am learning and do at least 2 hours, most sailing days and aim for 3 hours
l look forward to seeing you progress
Hope see a new video in 6 months showing your improvement
Get out there soon and have fun doing it
Cheers
TK
Select to expand quotetonyk said..
Hi Ameo
I watched your video
You are going good for a beginner
You have been given great tips from accomplished windfoilers
Time on the water sailing as many days a month as possible is the best way
Long day sessions are the best for improvement
Try to stay out on the water 2 to 3 hours each sailing day
I am learning and do at least 2 hours, most sailing days and aim for 3 hours
l look forward to seeing you progress
Hope see a new video in 6 months showing your improvement
Get out there soon and have fun doing it
Cheers
TK
hi TK
thank you for your reply.
i would like to learn foiling as long as possible.
but my forearms always get too tired very soon. so i should practice the riding with hooking in immediately, maybe...
Select to expand quoteMProject04 said..
Ameo,
do you have a 2020 hydra pro sail? seeing your profile pic? looks nice!
yes! yes!
that is a 2020hydra pro8.5
hydra8.5 and infinity99 can make me so early flying!!! i love them so much.
I find that when I wear gloves for warmth my arms get tired quicker; its not from overuse; its more from constriction of the blood vessels. Winter suits are thicker so that will also add to the blood flow constriction. Winter gloves may not have curved finger so you're expanding strength just to hold on to the boom. As an experiment wear the gloves at home when you're watching TV and pretend you're holding on to the boom and see how long you can hold that position without getting tired.
I have hooked in 1000's of time; but it was 1000's of times inefficiently. It was only after 20+ years of sailing did I pick up the skill of hooking in without excessive arm movement. We all want to move from Taxi to Flight ASAP; but make sure the fundamentals are in place. Control your ride height; mastery of this is fundamental. What Skills will I have when I can EASILY control my ride height. Mastery of body position, foil setup, correct rig setup.
Fly safely.
Select to expand quoteVCRWoody said..
I find that when I wear gloves for warmth my arms get tired quicker; its not from overuse; its more from constriction of the blood vessels. Winter suits are thicker so that will also add to the blood flow constriction. Winter gloves may not have curved finger so you're expanding strength just to hold on to the boom. As an experiment wear the gloves at home when you're watching TV and pretend you're holding on to the boom and see how long you can hold that position without getting tired.
I have hooked in 1000's of time; but it was 1000's of times inefficiently. It was only after 20+ years of sailing did I pick up the skill of hooking in without excessive arm movement. We all want to move from Taxi to Flight ASAP; but make sure the fundamentals are in place. Control your ride height; mastery of this is fundamental. What Skills will I have when I can EASILY control my ride height. Mastery of body position, foil setup, correct rig setup.
Fly safely.
i don' t like to use gloves.
so even midwinter, i use mittens with opening the palms, without constriction.
i don't think that the reason why my forearms would get tired so soon is the gloves but my skill.
i would like to practice hooking but it would need the skill and it must be so hard...ok
Hi ameo, you are doing great. Here are a few other ideas you can try. 8.5 is a big sail. I am 105kg and i use 7.0 even in light winds. Its not as fast around a race course but way lighter and easier. I think at your weight a 6m cambered race sail or preferably a free foil cambered sail like a severne hyperglide would be ideal. I havent used one but a good friend is your size and loves his. This size would be good to learn all the techniques. also use a short carbon boom with small diameter tubes, much easier to grip and lighter than the boom on your 8.5 sail. I foil with no straps and no harness for up to 6 hours straight.I think you should try it. With booties you have good grip. I know many will disagree but i like it because i have no fear of getting stuck in straps and harness and i can perfectly position my feet. Next thing is think less power and stand upright. Practice going down wind as far as you can go. There can be almost no pressure in yhe rig and you can stand really upright and square across the board. Think no power and then you will get used to it. Then later you can add power and straps and harness but unless you are course racing you dont need either. I am not strong or fit. On the fin i need a harness and cant sail 30seconds unk
hooked. On a foil i dont need a harness. I will wear one if i am going to sail for 10 minutes on one tack, but to learn faster i think its better to tack and gybe more and with a smaller lighter rig and good boom you dont need a harness on the foil. Try it and feel the freedom.
