Modern Stance for Maneuverbility?

I know the "modern" stance as advised by most coach is to use a waist harness and a slightly higher boom--neck height when standing close to mast with the sail upright? But I prefer to put boom at shoulder height or just under, with a seat harness (a very low hook height) and short lines (mostly 22 inches). Short lines allow me to sail in an upright stance with the sail fully sheet in, in straps and my butt not touching water in chop. Much less spin out and better upwind.

I've tried raising the boom to see the effect but soon return to original height. With a high boom when planing in straps, I find all the weight is in the back foot and I have a feeling of pulling out of footstrap of my front foot (especially with modern slalom boards), which is very unsecured and TIRING! The board also slows down more going over chop. In terms of maneuverbility, in fact a lower boom is much better. With a lower boom, my arms are parallel to water surface so easier to push or pull the sail. Easier gybes (plane out of some for my level), duck gybes, waterstarts. In fact I fall more in gybes with a high boom. More difficult waterstart (need to stretch more to get sail upright, thus requires slightly more wind) and even uphaul (easy to fall backwards). I question whether using a waist harness is productive at all, especially one needs to raise boom height. Anyway most moves are done hook out, so does not depend what harness is put on.

I know PWA slalom guys use a high boom, but that's their setting with wider board. I personally don't sail wide boards as I don't need to or I choose to. What do you guys think? How about the wave discipline? Feel free to share.

Are you talking about slalom or wave? Beacause you won't find any half decent wave sailors trying to make a seat harness and 22" lines work and nobody who does any discipline of windsurfing at a high level is using 22" lines either.

Haha, is this a question about stance or is out about the type of harness you prefer?
And of course those two go hand in hand.

But there are some issues here that need debunking.
Firstly, a seat harness doesn't necessarily have a lower hook than a waist harness.
Secondly, if you are in 'upright stance' then the pull of the rig is outwards and, if you view the sailor from the nose of the board backwards or else from tail of the board forwards, then the hook sits on the radius of a circle where your hands are more or less at the centre.
Your harness line length is then determined mostly by the length of your outstretched arms when they sit close together open the boom. And in that 'perfect 7' stance, 22 inch lines are much too short.

It's also helpful to talk about what sort of kit you are sailing on. With a bigger rig, the rise and fall of the boom is much greater, and the boom is obviously high when slogging but drops much lower as you get in the straps. So we tend to talk about boom height as being shoulder to chest height when sailing along.
Chosen boom height is mostly about personal preference, and it's only beginners who are told to use a higher boom to help them unload the back foot and to get more mast foot pressure when heading out.
A competent wave sailor can use a low boom and still apply mast foot pressure. Some wave heads say a low boom is good for wave riding, whereas a higher boom helps when you are jumping.
Slalom sailors use boom height adjustment for control, in conjunction with mast foot position. In windy weather they might drop their boom a bit or else shift the mast foot forwards a touch, or both.

I suspect the highest booms are used by those on bigger sails. As has been said, sailing a wide board where the straps are set outboard does complicate these matters.

Stance is something to experiment with as much as it's something you can copy from others. The key to upright stance is to set the mast foot further back and to then have your front foot straps nearer the mast foot. Watch out that this setting can seem twitchy or 'catapulty' at first. Boom height will ultimately be a function of preference and of your height.
Maximum harness line length is a function of your arm length, with 32inch being the modern average.
In this correct modern upright stance, your bum does not slap the water, and you don't spin out.

The problem most people have with adapting to this upright stance is that they have to unlearn the old school stance - where your body is more in the lavatory position which is why you get bum slap from the water, and where your mast is raked back too much which often goes hand in had with too much load on the back foot, which is, in turn, what causes spinout.

Old school stance can still work OK for blasting in a straight line or for speedsailing. But the reason to go for a more upright stance is that it allows you to move your body weight quickly - adjusting board trim, reacting to gusts, or when going into a gybe etc.
For freestyle and waves riding you absolutely need to be able to react and move fast, but this applies to a lot of slalom sailing too.

When people talk about bum slap or 22 inch lines or indeed about spinout problems you know they are in some sort of old school stance.
For sure there's old school, and then there's really old school.

I also see sailors in upright stance who are still what I call 'straight leg' gybers.
For those looking for change - or to solve a stance problem - it's probably worth getting someone to film you.

On wider tailed boards you are further away from the centre line so if the sail is sheeted at the same angle with respect to mast foot and direction you need longer lines. 22" lines sounds really short to me, even on the older narrower tailed slalom boards.

What do people mean by 'old school stance'?

To me its this from 2005.

And yes, a modern stance setup allows easier turning, hooked in or unhooked.
It allows air spin moves, is less locked down, needs smaller fins, and favors smaller sails or less power.
That is the opposite setup for what's needed for slalom or high jumping.
Where are your priorities?

Riding a wave, you hook out...unless you're just cruising along.
Heading out, most sailor hook in.
If you loop, go new school.
If you jump high, go old school.
Track setup since '85 was track back for sharper turns.
Strap width always wide.
Size of straps allow feet to slide well inside to weight leeward rail.
Nothing new here.

Speed slalom stance hasn't changed, only freestyle and freestyle in waves.
Freeride, depends what you want to do.

Spin out among decent sailors is caused by bad fin, or too small for wind and boardspeed,
Most often just a badly shaped...foiled...fin.

What Basher said + when I head upwind most times in both straps (lucky to be light enough) sometimes I place my back foot in front of the rear strap to be hanging farther forward.

My upwind stance has to be the ugliest stance someone would ever have! My front leg is super bent, body hiked out forward with sail "behind" me. When I used to have an uphaul line I often grabbed it so I could lean even farther out.

Now I just let go of my front hand. This is all done in marginal winds at the end of a session using a twin fin board.

Waist harness aren't as good as seats when it comes to hiding flaws, same with multi fins, same with gusty winds, rough terrain, current, etc.

When using a waist harness your abs should be doing the work. You want to drive your hips out into the harness. Your bum hitting the water shows that the sail reached a point where it was leaned too far windward.

Sails are most efficient when nearly upright, mast tip over the board. Now with short lines with an upright sail you will lack body leverage to deliver proper drive onto the board. That's why short line sailors tend to have their sail leaning towards the wind.

One thing that long lines let us do too is deal with great gear height variation while going through waves hooked in. We have more amplitude and range. It's easier to drive the board back down to maintain planing over white water and such.

This isn't the best image but it gives you a sense of commitment when trying to get the most out of our gear when heading upwind. Keep in mind that this is an 8.5 sail with a massive boat like board (really) so physics will differ and as you can imagine maneuverability is not an issue!

Thank you, PhilUK.
For my 72 kgs, the Speedster was easy in 14-21 mph winds with 6.6 sized sails. Good speed, 80% planing thru exit on jibes.
The problem became in 17-27 mph winds, with 5.8, 3 cam sails, when an 85 liter fsw's and 5 meter sail was more than adequate, with the bonus of easier landing on jumps. Speed not different because we sail in deep water at the downwind of a 4 mile fetch. Knee to lower thigh high cross windchop is common, as is jumps where the tip of the fin is 6' or higher off the water. Those are bump n jump conditions, not slalom or freeride.
Rear strap one hole forward of back setting, front straps one hole back from front setting, making a stance just over 22", mast track 22.5" from center of front strap, 33 and 35 Tectonics Phoenix fins.
I now use the Speedster 100 as one of my light wind boards in flat water.

The one thing I didn't quite understand was why stance age matters for maneuvering.
I unhook to turn.
Wave setups have always been wide stance, big open footstraps, and feet able to move deeper or shallower as needed. New or old has no bearing.
Slalom, still some version of old school?
Freestyle, we need mast track back new school to spin and ride those little fins.
But freeride. Shouldn't we set up the board by what we want to do?

Olympic course race stance is nowhere near the "modern" stance. It was used in D-2 before 1983.
I guess we should define what IS the "modern stance".

Thanks for the details Maxi! I was looking for a picture such as the second one you posted. Awesome.

We can see how hiked forward he is. If control wasn't an issue, he would also pull his rear foot out to get a touch more forward and in a more natural position. It can be harsh on knees when they are set inwards while dropping off a piece of chop for example.

Anyways this is the ugly upwind stance I was talking about earlier.