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Overpower Jibe

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Created by Macroscien > 9 months ago, 4 Feb 2013
Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Feb 2013 9:52PM
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How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.
I thought that I have this scenario tested on the recent stormy weather but it seems that is not that easy yet.

Here is that situation . Wind as per graph ( 30 + knt ?) 5.7m2 and 92L JP, me 82 kg, quite a big chop.



Just freshly reviewed Alwarez Youtube video with 8 different jibes and plenty of time today I did try my best in practising jibbing.
Since I am moderate jibing begginer I am open for critics and advice as well.
How to jibe?
lay down jibe or step gybe ? ( I did try lay down the sail but it seem almost impossible to release that extreme power from sail )
try to loose some speed or get into jibe at full speed ?
commit to the gybe 100 % or keep relaxed and slow down?
I did test all possible scenarios with a bit miserable results if comnited too much then rail dig in into water, if lay down - then impossible to release power, if relaxed then ok but looks awfully



petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
4 Feb 2013 8:18PM
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If you watch the top sailors they approach the mark/buoy very high.

This will help to dump the power/wind from the sail.

That is,if you also pull the back-hand in radically with all your strength,while at the same time pushing really hard with front hand.

Forget about laying it down,just concentrate on above 3 techniques.

And 4th technique is use a smaller sail.

westozwind
WA, 1395 posts
4 Feb 2013 8:25PM
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Macroscien said...
Here is that situation . Wind as per graph ( 30 + knt ?) 5.7m2 and 92L JP, me 82 kg, quite a big chop.





Well there's your problem. If you we're out in 30 odd Knots with a 5.7 and a 92 ltr board then gybing would be the least of your problems.
Next time, go rig a 4.5 or smaller and you will find gybing (slightly) easier.
Eithe way, it's a different sport at 30 knots!

FormulaNova
WA, 14670 posts
4 Feb 2013 8:26PM
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30 knots with a 5.7m and 82kg? That sounds challenging to me, even if it were smooth water, and not choppy.

One strange thing about gybing, at least for me, is that you lose a fair bit of that power as you bear away from the wind. It feels scary initially, but bearing away calms things down a bit and is more comfortable than not bearing away.

Isn't a lay-down gybe just what you are doing with the sail. The footwork is still step-gybe or strap-to-strap, but you are oversheeting the sail and laying it down to make it a lay-down gybe.

I would suggest going with the wind, to lose some of that power, and then attempting the gybe.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Feb 2013 10:41PM
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FormulaNova said...

I would suggest going with the wind, to lose some of that power, and then attempting the gybe.


Yes I may try this next time more committed to go with the wind. With standard wind speed that my common practise to go with the wind , but with this a bit extreme i did try to access to gibing point at full speed at sharp angle and suddenly release that power by laying down the sail. That doesn't work for me yet
The only question is if I will be able to
get this reasonable speed down the wind at this choppy conditions
If that mean I should stay all the time in the straps and move straps to straps after the sail flip ?
To be fair I didn't try yet complete carve gybe when fully overpowered and preferred step gybe..

Trousers
SA, 565 posts
4 Feb 2013 11:54PM
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what works for me: (I step, but occasionally strap-to-strap in the heavy stuff, it's not preconceived, just what works at the time). i weigh 76kegs, and was out in a very lumpy 30+kt a week ago with a 6m free race and 100ltr board. however my kit is excellent at handling bumps and I've been sailing a looong time, so although I was not exactly comfortable, i was in control, which is important. you must be ready to gybe, it's a kind of zen moment - and you can't enter with confidence if you're having trouble just going in a straight line.

1. time the approach carefully. even in nasty chop, flat spots can be found in between 'sets'. find them, and let the rail bite before really loading the inside rail. pressure should be gradually increased thru the first half of the turn, not all at once

2. I use the sail to pull me inboard into a strong gybing position (hips should always be over the centre line, outside heel lifted off the board). get this right and gybing becomes a *lot* easier, plus mast foot pressure loads the nose of the the board to allow it to slice thru chop and keep up speed. personally I do this by letting the sail fall to the inside (and slightly forward) and my body will follow it in. this naturally extends my front arm and kinks the rear and without really trying - voila! i've depowered the sail. score!

3. despite my best intentions, it doesn't always go to plan, so real deep knees in the turn lets me recover if/when the board hits a big piece of chop and tries to buck me off.

4. on rig flip anticipate the power: I get low to control the surge that is certain in heavy conditions.

in any conditions gybing's a lot to get right compressed into a handful of seconds, and technique is most important in heavy conditions. but we have an important ally: speed. it's amazing how much I can get away with if I just come in hard and fast.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Feb 2013 11:53PM
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Trousers said...

2. I use the sail to pull me inboard into a strong gybing position (hips should always be over the centre line, outside heel lifted off the board). get this right and gybing becomes a *lot* easier, plus mast foot pressure loads the nose of the the board to allow it to slice thru chop and keep up speed. personally I do this by letting the sail fall to the inside (and slightly forward)

interesting .... I did try exactly that today and somehow I will not be able to force the sail to push me down regardless of all my effort....seem like my overall speed was not enough in relation to wind speed.. and i was going really fast indeed....

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
5 Feb 2013 12:00AM
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petermac33 said...
If you watch the top sailors they approach the mark/buoy very high.

This will help to dump the power/wind from the sail.

That is,if you also pull the back-hand in radically with all your strength,while at the same time pushing really hard with front hand.

Forget about laying it down,just concentrate on above 3 techniques.

And 4th technique is use a smaller sail.



Thanks peter
mac. I was discussing this exactly matter with my son that is much more capable and he point exactly to the same VERY IMPORTANT POINTS:
That is,if you also pull the back-hand in radically with all your strength,while at the same time pushing really hard with front hand.

jsnfok
WA, 899 posts
4 Feb 2013 10:03PM
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when you are seriously overpowered, bearing away just increases your speed really you wanna go hard and sheet it, bend your ankles and knees through the turn

LOOK through the turn it will help you to keep carving around

most sailers start good then get stuck when it comes to completing the carve and flipping the rig

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
5 Feb 2013 12:25AM
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jsnfok said...
when you are seriously overpowered, bearing away just increases your speed really you wanna go hard and sheet it, bend your ankles and knees through the turn

LOOK through the turn it will help you to keep carving around

most sailers start good then get stuck when it comes to completing the carve and flipping the rig

On your photo you have exact example what I did try today... but at specific wind speed is just seems impossible to press this sail down ... for lay down gybe....when the water is all white around..

but when discussing that matter with my son that is much more capable the same motive appears .......
naturally extends my front arm and kinks the rear and without really trying - voila! i've depowered the sail. score!

Carantoc
WA, 6650 posts
5 Feb 2013 7:56AM
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Macroscien said...

How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.



Why do you want to sail seriously overpowered ?

Even the 10,000 times world champion and the fastest person to ever sail a windsurfer say it is about control not about power.

Why not just sail seriously in control ??

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8019 posts
5 Feb 2013 11:18AM
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Carantoc said...
Macroscien said...

How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.



Why do you want to sail seriously overpowered ?

Even the 10,000 times world champion and the fastest person to ever sail a windsurfer say it is about control not about power.

Why not just sail seriously in control ??


A lot of the time you can't not sail overpowered if your a lightweight in strong winds. Maybe that's the smallest gear he has?
I seem to spend most of my time overpowered once it hits 25kts +.

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
5 Feb 2013 11:29AM
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Carantoc said...
Macroscien said...

How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.



Why do you want to sail seriously overpowered ?

Even the 10,000 times world champion and the fastest person to ever sail a windsurfer say it is about control not about power.

Why not just sail seriously in control ??




The problem I have is as sboardcrazy says, the smallest sail and board sizes. However that is being slowly remedied as funds permit. As it hasn't been that windy around Sydney for the last few years I've gotten away without having smaller gear. The last few months it seems to be very windy when it is windy.

Windsurfing is a very different sport once the wind gets over 25 knots. Its a lot of fun with the right gear but a struggle for me with gear too big.

Carantoc
WA, 6650 posts
5 Feb 2013 8:45AM
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Pretty sure you could pick-up a smaller sail for significantly less than 10,000 batteries, a new electric outboard and the rest of the gubbins for a non-functioning solar powered catamaran, a one man helicopter garden ornament or a TIG welder (with MIG function).


surfzup
WA, 57 posts
5 Feb 2013 9:26AM
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jsnfok said...
when you are seriously overpowered, bearing away just increases your speed really you wanna go hard and sheet it,


^ this

When you're over-powered you're not 100% in control, so yeah doing a typical carve gybe is probably going to end in tears. When seriously overpowered, I hit the rail pretty hard, sheet in and the board turns very tightly on the tail. I was gybing Ok in 38knots+ like this as well as using swell to help me turn.

qldnacra
QLD, 455 posts
5 Feb 2013 11:40AM
Thumbs Up

Macroscien said...

How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.
I thought that I have this scenario tested on the recent stormy weather but it seems that is not that easy yet.

Here is that situation . Wind as per graph ( 30 + knt ?) 5.7m2 and 92L JP, me 82 kg, quite a big chop.



Just freshly reviewed Alwarez Youtube video with 8 different jibes and plenty of time today I did try my best in practising jibbing.
Since I am moderate jibing begginer I am open for critics and advice as well.
How to jibe?
lay down jibe or step gybe ? ( I did try lay down the sail but it seem almost impossible to release that extreme power from sail )
try to loose some speed or get into jibe at full speed ?
commit to the gybe 100 % or keep relaxed and slow down?
I did test all possible scenarios with a bit miserable results if comnited too much then rail dig in into water, if lay down - then impossible to release power, if relaxed then ok but looks awfully






Firstly the wind was nothing like the graph shows. It hit maybe 26 at best but the problem was the holes in it which the graph doesn't show. Gusty is ok so long as there is some power in the lulls but it would have been lucky to be 10 knots in the lulls then 3 seconds later it would hit 26 then back to 10 again. It was hopeless hence why i packed up and left after less than 2 hours. I was hoping it would fill in but it got worse.
It was not the right conditions to be trying new stuff because it is hard to tell whether it is technique or extremely poor conditions when you fail a jibe. The last 2 days have been that patchy around here it crazy. I have been getting a good percentage of my jibes lately but yesterday and the day before made them VERY difficult to pull off. I got a few but in the end it was so unpredictable i just got the sh!ts with it and tacked instead. The direction of the swell and tide going with the wind, which takes away some of your power when you enter the jibe, made them hard to do. Guys that are much better than you and i would have been ok but it wasn't ideal so i recon wait until the conditions are more suitable then try the new stuff i think stick with what you know how to do in conditions like that.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
5 Feb 2013 12:30PM
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Carantoc said...
Macroscien said...

How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.



Why do you want to sail seriously overpowered ?

Even the 10,000 times world champion and the fastest person to ever sail a windsurfer say it is about control not about power.

Why not just sail seriously in control ??

Actually sailing with a bit of access of the sail is quite a fun. Like a good bike with 150+ HP needs delicate handling....
I feel like in full control on the straight and on the chop, just that gybe need a little tweaking.
Usually when gusting like that 30+ 35 ktn that is not a constant stable wind but one with plenty of dead holes that you will stack on smaller sail unless really going really fast.
That is the reason for me to have that slightly bigger sail - look at that comment above- because for me there was enough power all that time and wind feels strong and stable with sudden even stronger gusts which didn't bother me much when already in position and at speed.
Even on recent storm with wind gusting 90 km/h and me on 4.2m- I did drop few times into water but not because of catapult or chop or the wind but a luck of wind. at the times
When you are in strong position and committed and suddenly winds drops... I just fell on the back into water
I did even few gybes but at such wind (90+? )you don't even want to really commit, get speed or sheet in... all that matter is stay on the board above the water...because is much easier that doing waterstart
But 25-30 -35 ktn is worth to try to pull that gybe properly just need to find the proper technique.

Roar
NSW, 471 posts
5 Feb 2013 2:23PM
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Thr hardest part of gybing in strong winds in the JP slalom is getting the back foot out and into the opisite strap, on these boards your back foot really controlls the the load on the fin that keeps it stable.

In rough conditions you need to bear away and pick a flat section thru a trough and get the foot onto the opisite pad so yout foot is near the strap, pushing down on the edge to initiate the gybe,

At this point your body position should be bent knees and leaning into the gybe, this will keep the tail from sinking and stop the board from losing speed.

Saill wise at the same time pull in back hand push out front hand as mentioned above. what this does is puts a lot of downward pressure onto the board and helps keep the board from bouncing - lets you punch thru the chop rather than bounce over it.

As you rotatate slowly sheet out to maintian pressure in the sail. if you keep the sail too close to you as you rotate you will have a lot harder time when it comes to the flip.

Personally in strong winds i like to flip the sail really early. As you hit about 90 degree off the wind i release and and reaquire the sail on the opposite side before the board turns another 45 degrees. Ideally you want to be sheeting in while still on the reach and keeping speed up. By maintaining speed the apparant wind is very low and makes it A Lot easier to power it up for the exit.

As you sheeting in again you can just rotate your foot into the strap at this point you have both feet in straps and have the leverage you need to pull the sail into position. As soon as you feel comfortable pull youy back foot into the back strap and accelerate!

The biggest mistake most ppl do when learning is lack of commitment. almost never bend the knees enuf and lean forward into the gybe. Learning it is hard becase it really feels like you are going to get catapulted byt this only really happens because you sont commit enuf and the board slows down.
Simply put less speed = more apparent wind = harder to control.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8019 posts
5 Feb 2013 3:33PM
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Pull down into the boom as you get ready to unhook and keep pulling down throughout..easy for me to say.. need practise now....on entry really pull down into the boom and rake rig forward a touch so weight off rear foot & you can move it..Guy Cribb tip..really helped me..no more though..have to go to his clinics..

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
5 Feb 2013 1:12PM
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Roar said...
Thr hardest part of gybing in strong winds in the JP slalom is getting the back foot out and into the opposite strap,.



I'll agree with that, getting the back foot out and into a reasonable position on the leeward rail is the first difficult task. With the board bouncing around taking a foot out of the back strap is not something you look forward to. If this part does go OK the rest is easy....relatively.

Macroscien asked the question, he's an ideas man, so here goes, here's an idea. A travelling back strap. Travellers aren't new, yachties use them for all sorts of things.

So an " X " shaped track would be recessed into the deck. A footstrap on a small turntable can travel around the rear deck on a course that takes in the two standard back strap positions and the two back foot gybing positions.

So from normal starboard sailing position a slight lift of the heel would unlock the turntable and allow you to foot-slide the back footstrap on its little turntable diagonally across the deck and lock into the perfect gybing position on the port rail. Imagine that! No over-stepping the mark, no short-stepping the mark, no skating on non-skid.
The board always has back foot pressure so stays under control. The gybe will be perfect!

Take your foot out for the switch, the back strap on its turntable will slide back on a bit of shock chord, rotate on some cams and be in normal rear position for port tack sailing. Could be possible for this to go via the centre of the deck but maybe the "X" track should have top and bottom additions so the strap can go back to the rear position along the rail.

I can see the day DaKine footstraps are sold in sets of 3.







Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
5 Feb 2013 3:29PM
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This is the closest video describing conditions I am talking about.


this guys are seriously overpowered
some doing lay down gybe
some of them carve gybe
others even sort of step gybe
some couldn't do it at all
I guess they may have more sail that my 5.7m wind could be even stronger then 35 ktn (??),water seems to be similar quality, definitely have more skills and talent that me , but that is my dream to pull that gybe one day

busterwa
3777 posts
5 Feb 2013 1:30PM
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dowhaull the bollocks of your sail till its a 5.0 and wear a helmet!

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
5 Feb 2013 3:52PM
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Ian K said...
Roar said...
Thr hardest part of gybing in strong winds in the JP slalom is getting the back foot out and into the opposite strap,.



I'll agree with that, getting the back foot out and into a reasonable position on the leeward rail is the first difficult task. With the board bouncing around taking a foot out of the back strap is not something you look forward to. If this part does go OK the rest is easy....relatively.

Macroscien asked the question, he's an ideas man, so here goes, here's an idea. A travelling back strap. Travellers aren't new, yachties use them for all sorts of things.

So an " X " shaped track would be recessed into the deck. A footstrap on a small turntable can travel around the rear deck on a course that takes in the two standard back strap positions and the two back foot gybing positions.

So from normal starboard sailing position a slight lift of the heel would unlock the turntable and allow you to foot-slide the back footstrap on its little turntable diagonally across the deck and lock into the perfect gybing position on the port rail. Imagine that! No over-stepping the mark, no short-stepping the mark, no skating on non-skid.
The board always has back foot pressure so stays under control. The gybe will be perfect!

Take your foot out for the switch, the back strap on its turntable will slide back on a bit of shock chord, rotate on some cams and be in normal rear position for port tack sailing. Could be possible for this to go via the centre of the deck but maybe the "X" track should have top and bottom additions so the strap can go back to the rear position along the rail.

I can see the day DaKine footstraps are sold in sets of 3.









Rotating foot straps travelling to the back and forward in rails ? !! You are my genius !! I think it can be done... more like V not X rails....movement synchronized by chain joining two straps together... some smart locking mechanism....
Since I had a habit of starting with rear strap first ( that helps me always in rough conditions, I may never need to remove feet from the straps...

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
5 Feb 2013 4:54PM
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sboardcrazy said...
Carantoc said...
Macroscien said...

How to jibe when you are seriously overpowered ( on the choppy water)?
I need your advice.



Why do you want to sail seriously overpowered ?

Even the 10,000 times world champion and the fastest person to ever sail a windsurfer say it is about control not about power.

Why not just sail seriously in control ??


. Maybe that's the smallest gear he has?


You are right ! This is a result of the gybe practice session in rough terrain a few weeks ago. Full speed, 100% commitment , strong wind , no mercy on my favourite high wind 84L Naish.... but foot slipped and I landed knee on the board




I guess few patches of the fibreglass will do and she is back on the water soon

seanhogan
QLD, 3424 posts
6 Feb 2013 9:36AM
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qldnacra
QLD, 455 posts
6 Feb 2013 9:55AM
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^^That guy sucks because he doesn't

PhilSWR
NSW, 1104 posts
6 Feb 2013 11:53AM
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seanhogan said...





Bit off track Marco, but the answers to the following may be of interest to ya.

Right, that short clip is great. Now tell me, as a Gumby at any form of gybe, is the laydown any easier than a normal gybe? Any advantage to them? They do look sweet when done like the above.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
6 Feb 2013 11:08AM
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PhilSWR said...
seanhogan said...





Bit off track Marco, but the answers to the following may be of interest to ya.

Right, that short clip is great. Now tell me, as a Gumby at any form of gybe, is the laydown any easier than a normal gybe? Any advantage to them? They do look sweet when done like the above.

IMO Lay down gybe is much more difficult to perform, because need real commitment, possibility of catching chop with sail in rough terrain, sometimes dig rails too deep into water because sail actually try to sink the board when done too rapidly...
on another hand is very useful to release power, and keep board nicely sticking to the water in that choppy conditions as well pressing board nose down....
that is my opinion and that is way I am trying now to learn to do it properly....
Well done in the video above but condition quite comfortable. ON another hand world masters do this at extreme : Our speed master do this lay down gybe to brake speed down after beating world speed record in the narrow channel, PWA do this at very choppy condition above... for me just whole essence of the windsurfing... well performed gybe

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
6 Feb 2013 12:26PM
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I've found concentrating on just two things helps the most. Everything else seems to fall into place by itself. Er, when I get it right.

Macro: Gybing while overpowered in chop is hard. Keep practicing. The end.

Two things:

1) Come in from high and really pick your way through the chop. Concentrate on finding a smooth path and anticipating the bumps. The appropriate curve will vary depending on conditions, speed, lulls and the like, but momentum is the thing you want to keep.

2) Be aware of the wind. You'll flip the rig at the correct moment and angle much more when you are really aware of the apparent wind. If you've practiced on land even a little bit it should be instinctive.

If you have too many things to think about while gybing you're going to have a bad time.

This video illustrates #2 beautifully. Needs sound.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
6 Feb 2013 11:29AM
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beautiful example for usefulness of lay down gybe



Antoine could initiate this deep jibe any using sail....
no time wasted for moving your foot to the rail
almost all the time remains in the straps...

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
6 Feb 2013 11:37AM
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evlPanda said...
I've found concentrating on just two things helps the most. Everything else seems to fall into place by itself. Er, when I get it right.

Macro: Gybing while overpowered in chop is hard. Keep practicing. The end.

Two things:

1) Come in from high and really pick your way through the chop. Concentrate on finding a smooth path and anticipating the bumps. The appropriate curve will vary depending on conditions, speed, lulls and the like, but momentum is the thing you want to keep.

2) Be aware of the wind. You'll flip the rig at the correct moment and angle much more when you are really aware of the apparent wind. If you've practiced on land even a little bit it should be instinctive.

If you have too many things to think about while gybing you're going to have a bad time.

This video illustrates #2 beautifully. Needs sound.



I would add one more you to your two points, that always help Bend the knees
sometimes chop is so awfully irregular (over the sand bank in high tide) that I need to do gybe anyhow and couldn't expect anything...the worst thing is to find my board flying during gybe curve over the chop...



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"Overpower Jibe" started by Macroscien