Have anyone have good video of the gybe and exit that account for 25 knots + at alpha 500 m?
It could be nice to see what general rules and position are for very high speed alpha.
What is the actually the record speed for alpha 500?
At this moment I am still around 20 knots but only waiting for right wind and flat water to improve ...
I guess also that board size matter and much easier will be board below 100 L (?)
Macro,
From GPSTC http://gpsteamchallenge.com.au/rankings/individual
the WR 30.34kn gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?team=67&date=2012-10-16
Izaak Perkins has the best recorded Australian Alpha 28.78kn gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?team=27&date=2012-01-26
There's been some great threads on here previously regarding all the ingredients for a cracking alpha.
Woow, this guy is incredible,
Jacques van der Hout
regularly alpha above 30 knots , nautical mile 42.6 ! , 1 hour 30 knots and distance 520 km !!
If will be extremely interesting to see video how he perform this 30 knots alpha...
Sausage.
The things I want to see for alpha 25+ is how much you need to lower the sail during the turn at this speed
Is that is the position when we do extreme fast gybe ?
Well it's what I aim for, but if I try to go that low, I usually drag the clue in the water, which tends to slow you down a bit. But going in fully lit, it is easier to depower the sail by laying it down. There's also the effect of lowering rotational inertia, (same as ice skaters lowering their arms to increase their spin rate), it allows you to turn a bit tighter.
The limiting factor is how much grip the rail and fin have on the water when the board is leaned over that hard and lots of Gs are developed.
I'd love to see how tight an arc Jacques is carving at those speeds.
I find it hard to do one much under 50m going in at 30kn.
if you go any wider then you have to go upwind to get the 50m separation, so what is he doing, an incredibly fast tight gybe and square run in and out, or a wider gybe with very fast upwind legs?
On my 65cm board I can do 21/22 knot alphas, on my 48cm board the odd 25, but I have a feeling that the 43cm and 53cm are capable of similar speeds in the right conditions.
The smaller board can go faster in stronger winds and turn a tighter arc. the bigger board doesn't loose as much speed in the gybe and accelerates quicker in lighter winds.
For my PB Alpha. I did it on my JP Speed 45, and NP RSREVO4 5.8, with a C3 Sweed 19cm....@Lake George.
There was a good topic a while back, that consists of a good alpha, may be worth searching for?
Here are some of my thoughts:
I have did the majority of my best Alpha's when I have come up from up high, then layed off (not too far off the wind) Then gradually rounding it back up to a square reach for 250m, maintaining a good in speed. Do my jibe (letting my sail flick round a little earlier than normal) then keep it to the 50M proximity, as close as I can. While trying to be as fast as I can heading back. This I think is defiantly the key... By getting back up to speed after the exit of the jibe. Another key is to be POWERED UP! but still in control.
Sometimes you may have a wider arc and have a faster min speed through the turn but then have to point back to get into the proximity. So i don't think min speed is all important, as long as you get back up to speed as fast as you can after the turn.
Genuinely the more you rail the board, your sail should be 90deg....For example in this photo, also im more on the front foot, for control and stop the board from bogging down in the turn.
Laydown jibes can be fast as well, due to you can do a tighter arc but then can take longer, to get the sail back up and flick it round. Causing a wider arc than you think.
Read this. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Tips-for-improving-alphas/
Cheers
Marty
Ah gybing. So satisfying, so fundamental, such a basic part of seamanship.
Yet so damn complicated!
Nice form Izaak! 
I agree with you. My fastest Alphas have always been without extreme 'laydown's for the same reasons you outline. It is slower and more disruptive to board trim as you recover the sail for the flip from a deep laydown. Also agree getting back to high speed ASAP after the gybe is critical.
To do a really fast Alpha you need very flat water. In very flat water there are not the advantages of the laydown that there are in open choppy water. IMHO, the Laydown was developed as a technique for downwind open water slalom where the water is quite bumpy and the turns can be quite wide and not through 180 degrees. It is not ideally suited to flat water Alphas where you go through a tight 180 degree turn.
For me, the delicate balancing act is to turn really tight (but not so much as to bog down as wipe off too much speed), keep the foot of the sail from dragging in the water too much but at the same time flip the sail as early as possible to get power back ASAP and keep speed up. Also being very smooth and light on the board (wobbles kill speed drastically) and very smooth and precise in the rig flip so the sail is back in the hands perfectly, the harness line hooks up quickly without effort and the feet are driving in the straps ASAP.
Mike, after looking at a lot of Alpha tracks, I think the fastest ones had jibes that where all pretty close to the 50m diameter from first turn in to top speed out. My fastest Alphas at Lake George didn't make to 50m proximity circle by about 10m! 
I recall hearing similar comments from one or two others. 
Yep, I had a 26 at 70m, Thought I'd lined up an horizon marker fairly well, but obviously I was miles off.
For my best one there I was lucky, I'd been talking to somebody near the start of my run, so had something to aim for on the way back.
Select to expand quoteizaak said..
,... to get the sail back up and flick it round. .....
I can see you Izaak hold the boom with "over grip" but Jacques " undergrip" before sail flip.
If that make any difference how fast and fluid the sail flip is - or just personal preference?
Interesting reading So tell me, I'm pretty new to sailing and GPS stuff, and would like to hear how folks view alpha speeds. I'm amazed at anyone consistently getting over 23 knots. 25 knots plus seems super human. 30 knts, my brain can't comprehend... For the average punter working on their numbers, what's a decent alpha speed to be proud off? I'm just happy not to fall off during my gybes...
For me the 20 knots is the magic barrier.
Below that you just making a turns, to do above 20 you really need to know what and how.
That is why I am asking guys for technical details, because everything counts, foot position on the board , hand works during the flip, etc
25 for me is holly grail of windsurfing but I think quite realistic in next few years for me.
For me educational plan for nearest future will be avoiding stalling speed after the flip.
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said...izaak said..
,... to get the sail back up and flick it round. .....
I can see you Izaak hold the boom with "over grip" but Jacques " undergrip" before sail flip.
If that make any difference how fast and fluid the sail flip is - or just personal preference?
Personal preference
Select to expand quoteMacroscien said...izaak said..
,... to get the sail back up and flick it round. .....
I can see you Izaak hold the boom with "over grip" but Jacques " undergrip" before sail flip.
If that make any difference how fast and fluid the sail flip is - or just personal preference?
Personal preference
I used to undergrip when gybing but changed to overgrip after reading a gybing post on here many moons ago. IMO Overgrip provides for a much smoother flip and allows the sail to be better positioned (forward) than an underhand grip affords.
Here's some other threads in relation FYI
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/best-ever-tip-for-gybing/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Tips-for-gybing-when-over-powered/
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Another-Gybing-Instructional-Vid/
now that is a sweet gybe on a 45cm speed board in the 2nd video
The pull up at the end of the run (video 1) in that chop at 40kn is a bit hairy! I like the gopro footage that has somehow been linked to the gps to show the realtime and max speed whilst viewing the footage. Does anyone on here have this connectivity between the GPS and GoPro? - looks cool!!!
Select to expand quoteAJEaster said..
now that is a sweet gybe on a 45cm speed board in the 2nd video
The pull up at the end of the run (video 1) in that chop at 40kn is a bit hairy! I like the gopro footage that has somehow been linked to the gps to show the realtime and max speed whilst viewing the footage. Does anyone on here have this connectivity between the GPS and GoPro? - looks cool!!!
Adam... type of camera called a GoBandit.. also new Garmin has same technology
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Gps/Goolwa-Alpha-Channel-YouTube-Vid/
my Favourite:
not as fast as your request.. it's only 24.7..
shows some nice smooth style !!
Select to expand quotered said..
Adam... type of camera called a GoBandit.. also new Garmin has same technology
Sweet, Thanks Redmiester, I will look into it
Select to expand quotehardie said..
This is cheating doing alphas in these conditions this was a 25kt+ alpha
That's Albany, right?
What was the windspeed?
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..hardie said..
This is cheating doing alphas in these conditions this was a 25kt+ alpha
That's Albany, right?
What was the windspeed?
Yes Albany, windspeed from memory was a solid 20kts, about 18 to 23kts, almost perfect alpha gybing consitions
This next one is an interesting study of an alpha, when looking at this one you notice I've got very good speed going in, and then to square up parallel going back out, I seem to be unable to get back up to any high speed across the wind. From memory this is one of those one's where I've probably gone at a slightly downwind angle across the wind picking up that extra speed, then when I'm heading back to 50m proximity, I'm needing to pinch up wind, and you see me struggling to get back to that high speed I took into the incoming run, the importance of trying to stay square to the wind both ways: There's a lot to these bloody alphas
This is one where I stuff the gybe up falling to the inside, I've got the timing wrong on this one, trying to remember what I did wrong, might be a good discussion point, I think one thing I did wrong on this one was that i became too conscious Of what i was doing, knowing I had a lot of speed in, I didnt want to stuff it up, and lost the natural flow/groove that I was in: Its like I rushed this one?
Select to expand quoteMilsy said..
well, thanks for the footage,,,,,,,,,are we allowed to discuss further, or would that be too offensive?, we love the alpha on the central coast, we get a lot less wind on average, and we focus on the turn more than the run in and out, and i can tell looking at your turns, well, lets just say, you sail the 500m of crosswind well, but your actual turns are......(assumming were allowed to learn from posted footage, please dont take as personal attack).hards, hehe, (how ironic), sails well, aggressively accelerates once gypes completed, the gype itself looks lazy, lazy into intial carve, rig flips look out of time, nearly stalling on re gather, and not keeping board lifted or carved right though turn to completion, basically doesnt engage rails enough and is lazy with weight transfer through out the turn, you also appear to be entering the turn with a powerless sail, we love to cram hard cross, board lifted, and create big pull into carve, you appear to be pushing into turn, of cause making for slow rig flip, upon regathering rig, your position on board isnt correct, and you waste time resetting your position, rather then into intial acceleration to complete turn, you look like you stall, reset, then kick butt on the crosswind, I think you should work HARDER Hards, create more power into intial carve, engage new outer rail after flip, get lower,, thanks hards, your a great sailor,and i enjoyed looking at your footage, and learning, thank you,
Hey Milsy, its all about learning, no offense taken!! I think the video footage makes the gybes look slower and less aggressive and more lazy than what they actually are. Some of my dear mates are beautiful lazy gybers but not aggressive or quick enough and a bit slower than me on alphas so I take your points, however in the alpha I stuff up, I tried a bit harder and fell to the inside. The other thing is as I've been doing this for years, my technique has evolved to get a high alpha average speed, and for my abilities it feels like I'm just about maxed out, close to reaching my limit. The gybes didnt feel lazy they felt on the edge of my ability, but looking at the footage yes they do look lazy. It feels like if you engage the rail harder you actually slow the average speed of the gybe down and then get close to stalling and then you lose speed getting back up to speed. The rig flip I agree needs to be fast aggressive with perfect timing, and to me a lot of my gybes that day were as good as my abilities are capable of. I've never really considered myself an elite sailor, and thats probably what you are seeing sum1 that is sub elite just sailing in perfect conditions and getting high average alpha speeds just because the conditions are so good. So maybe all your points are 100% correct and maybe why I'll never get into the 27 kt or 28 kt alpha clubs
Also think its worth making a point about how hard to engage the rail and for how long one keeps a rail edged and banked over. One point is water conditions, the choppier it is the more control you get with a banked over rail, however when water is dead flat, banking the rail over and edging is only required to turn the board, what you want to do is maintain speed so you want the fastest part of the board the planing hull to be presented to the water to maintain highest average speeds, hope that makes sense. So where i was sailing Albany, it was very flat so wanted to keep the hull in planing position to maximize speed. Anyway hopes this stuff helps?
Select to expand quoteMilsy said..
yeah, yeah, alright, alright, alright,,,,,,,,,My time in navy, and boxing have made me into a 1970 east german style of coach,,, mean, harsh, and will not reward under performance on the pursuit to perfection!!!! My alphas arent great, but we can regularly break 23 when entering well under 30,,, gyping is an evolution of many subtle skills, and i think if your like me, you eventually get to a point were your paining well both sides, sorta 8/10 efforts and just stringing them together towards the hr effort,,,, I'm at the point were the board is staying fully lifted throughout wider arc, it feels like back leg pressure, must slide from rail, to top, to rail throughout, keeping board heavily engaged, the rig flip, if i kill it, then i basically work my way down the boom as if i might duck it, completely killing it, dragless, at point of neutral, work way back up boom, to flip, on the regather, since it was stalled, you now feel like the perfect engagement is by hyper gathering, really leaning hard out new wayward rail, straight armed trying to encourage the rig to take large arc around board, when i get it right, there is plenty of power on the regather as you forced the sail to power up, now is about body position as most times people need to reset before regathering a powered up sail, most eventually bring it in towards them, sheet in, killing the power and now have to re open up to get power, ruining it,,,,,,,,,,sometimes when im proper overpowered, i dont need to kill the sail, i try to get insanely loose crosswind and just let it pull me hard into the gype, you can feel a mini slingshot feel, carve crazy hard, the rig flip will be quick, basically ripping out of hands, into a well controlled regather, and set up for fast acceleration straight out of the gype, as you know, articulating feel is hard, and feel, timing, relationship of board to sail etc all play a big part,,,, the reason the east germans would call your entry lazy, is your letting yourself be pulled foward by the the sail as opposed to standing forward yourself, i do it, its lazy, smooth, easy, you do the semi dip, easy, smooth, lazy, and not setting up for better exit, it also appears your stalling on the regather, not great body position in relation to gaining a powered up sail, so then your not even creating a powered up sail on regather,,,as for fast alphas, the gype is only a small part of what is essentially 500m of aggressive crosswind sailing, plenty of guys get 25 plus alphas but their actual gype is pretty poor, weve got over 21 tacking, a great speed sailor up home gets 24 kt alphas, fast 36 plus runs in, poor gypes, I think a good way to learn to gype technically well, encoraging no loss throughtout, is when we sail in light crap, and just dont wanna come off the plain, thats when i find myself being less lazy as the power isn't there to burn,, thanks hardie, your a good sport...............this message will self destruct
Whenever ya put yaself out there in a public forum you've always got to be PREPARED>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm Old, I'm Fat, My Ego's been deflated by Life, I'm passed the need of peoples approval, and I can take a good whacking.............. I just love windsurfing and I will do it till I drop and If I can help an average sailor to improve then I'm willing to risk being slaughtered on Seabreeze
Select to expand quotehardie said..FormulaNova said..hardie said..
This is cheating doing alphas in these conditions this was a 25kt+ alpha
That's Albany, right?
What was the windspeed?
Yes Albany, windspeed from memory was a solid 20kts, about 18 to 23kts, almost perfect alpha gybing consitions
I went down there a couple of years ago in early January. It felt so cold compared to Perth, that I figured the air would pack a bit more of a punch down there. Being chickens, and no one else being out, we didn't bother sailing.
The section you are sailing looked to be very shallow to us, and there were a few kites around. Are there any really shallow places there to be wary of?
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said..hardie said..FormulaNova said..hardie said..
This is cheating doing alphas in these conditions this was a 25kt+ alpha
That's Albany, right?
What was the windspeed?
Yes Albany, windspeed from memory was a solid 20kts, about 18 to 23kts, almost perfect alpha gybing consitions
I went down there a couple of years ago in early January. It felt so cold compared to Perth, that I figured the air would pack a bit more of a punch down there. Being chickens, and no one else being out, we didn't bother sailing.
The section you are sailing looked to be very shallow to us, and there were a few kites around. Are there any really shallow places there to be wary of?
AS with any place you need to check it out first, sailing cautiously sussing out any dangerous spots. All the dangerous spots here will have weed sitting on surface so that helps you can SEE it. However, the magic of this place is if you have a shallow highly raked fin you can actually sail over areas with weed breaking the surface. But this you need to research thru experience, or sail where the regulars sail, making sure u have a similar fin. In January tides are lower, and u have to wait for hightide usually mid to late afternoons before you can get a decent run. Late Feb and March April are better tides, and the NM run comes into contention. I think Dec to Mid Feb the tides are lower and the sailing area is much reduced. Recommended fins for Albany Lilacs = Minimum 45 degree rake, more if you can get it. Maximum depth of fin about 26 to 27cm. The fin I used most was a Pepeweed custom, 48degree rake, 23cm deep. Not for sale BTW!!!!!
Pepeweed Custom 23/48 ideal for Lilacs Albany, the fin I used in the alpha videos, notice width of fin, gives that power across wind
