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Vest test

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Created by profian > 9 months ago, 4 Aug 2020
profian
SA, 200 posts
4 Aug 2020 1:58PM
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Following on from recent discussions here about the requirement to wear buoyancy vests while windsurfing, I went out and got myself a Forward WIP Flow Neo 50N vest. This morning I gave it a test run down at Moana.

By way of background, when I was working, I ended up being responsible for the OHS of 100s of people across several work areas, as well as overseeing the development and implementation of safe working procedures for all kinds of equipment and chemicals, some of which were virtually harmless, others of which could kill or maim you if you were careless. So I get safety. But that experience also showed us that some legislated procedures are totally inappropriate for their stated purpose: at the extremes, perfectly safe situations were deemed dangerous, while, more surprisingly, some very dangerous ones were not rated accordingly. So, for some procedures, the safety requirements were absolutely necessary, others were total overkill, while most simply didn't make any difference one way or the other to standard practice.

The debate about buoyancy vests for wave sailors has been around for years. The experience and opinion of most wave sailors, which I share 100%, is that such vests are not only unnecessary, but they are potentially dangerous in that they prevent you from diving to safety when caught inside a breaking wave or they may prevent you from easily getting out from under a sail after a crash. On the other hand, having some kind of assistance if some gear breaks when you are out to sea isn't too bad an idea in principle.

According to the SA rules, you need to have a buoyancy device of 50N within 400m of shore (however that is measured) and at least 100N if further out than that. Having looked at the specs for various vests, plus a bit of other detective work, I thought there is a good chance that a 50N vest might not seriously impede the ability to dive under a wave. The amount of neoprene in one of the 50N vests doesn't look a lot, and the amount of buoyancy it provides is probably less than a short surfboard or a body board ... and you can go under a breaking wave hanging onto your board.

Which is why I bought a WIP Flow... Here's a link to it:

forward-wip.com.au/en/85-flow-neo-vest-50n.html

So... down at Moana this morning, I set-up with my full sailing attire: wetsuit (4:3), booties, helmet, harness and the WIP Flow and went out for a swim in (freezing!) 1-2' swell. This is what it was like.

First up, the vest is comfortable and fits easily over the high back of my harness (a high back seat model). The front of the vest is well clear of the harness hook, and would be for a waist harness as well. The vest feels as though it would ride up a bit in the water. In fact it didn't. But just is case there is a loop at the front through which you can tie the front of the vest to your spreader bar (I used a strip of velcro, which made it feel a little better).

In the water, it's really easy to swim with the vest on. While it clearly provides additional buoyancy, it doesn't try to tip you over onto your back as many of the more buoyant inflatable vests will do (especially the 150N models).

While 1-2' waves are not a serious test, they were enough to show that I could easily dive under them. Indeed I could go at least a metre or so beneath them (then it was sand!!). Compared with not having the vest, I needed to keep swimming down to stay there but it wasn't too hard to do. Once I stopped swimming down, I popped up to the surface, but still was in control.

Just floating in the water, the vest seems to add about the same amount of buoyancy as wearing a full wetsuit (eg 4:3) adds, compared with wearing nothing.

Obviously, I'll need to test this again in bigger waves, but I'm pretty confident that this vest actually is pretty suitable for wave sailing under our typical conditions.

Does this mean the regulations shouldn't be changed? NO... they are still pretty silly, and are unnecessary. And I'm still convinced that one of the inflatable 100N or 150N vests could actually be a disaster in real-world wave sailing conditions in the vent that you were hurt and needed assistance: they make it very difficult to swim normally, and there's no way you could safely get through even moderate breaking surf. Some look to be really tricky to put on and use in strong wind.

On the other hand, a 50N vest could fall into the category of the OHS that probably doesn't make much difference one or the other. It should be a personal choice, like a helmet or a spare 4m of rope (both of which I use) or an impact vest. Will I wear the vest? If it still feels good in bigger waves, yes: at my age, a bit of security against something failing out the back isn't a bad idea... but it shouldn't be compulsory.

As a final comment (for now)... in my previous life, the only way we could ever get changes made to regulations was to provide counter-evidence, and that is best done by showing that the specified procedure has a higher risk to users than something else, including doing nothing. If it turns out that this vest really doesn't work in the surf, then I'm happy to document that with video etc.

I've added a few pics to show the set-up this morning... too bad the model isn't better looking... From the water pics, you can get an idea of the level of buoyancy... the bubbles show that I really was underwater!!








divaldo
SA, 2878 posts
4 Aug 2020 2:41PM
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Great job Ian,

Looks like a good option,

Nice modelling skills :)

TAA
SA, 1156 posts
4 Aug 2020 3:35PM
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Great work Ian

HarryBech
SA, 11 posts
5 Aug 2020 3:47PM
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Ian,as you know I was fined w/o warning in 012 & then broke my neck wearing a 50 n vest when sailing in 4 m swell at Bshams..the wave broke over the top of my mast during bottom turn ...I tried to dive thru the wave face but had so much buoyancy I was sucked up & slammed down onto my gear head first...fractured c5,c6,& was losing consciousness,couldn't swim due to nerve damage to right arm...So am lucky to have survived.....In conversation with department directors subsequently,we discussed SLSA research which demonstrated that a person of light stature would have difficulty duck diving,&so fr the last 7 years I have been allowed to wear a less buoyant vest combined with wetsuit...No longer..I am now required to comply...&Manager Marine Ops suggests finding an inflatable option...so I've just asked if he has a list...I am aware of Hero Inflatable Rashie ($263).& GregB has obtained a waist worn inflatable ($80)...anybody got other suggestions...I guess a pfd 1? .... Hb

profian
SA, 200 posts
5 Aug 2020 5:11PM
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Select to expand quote
HarryBech said..
Ian,as you know I was fined w/o warning in 012 & then broke my neck wearing a 50 n vest when sailing in 4 m swell at Bshams..the wave broke over the top of my mast during bottom turn ...I tried to dive thru the wave face but had so much buoyancy I was sucked up & slammed down onto my gear head first...fractured c5,c6,& was losing consciousness,couldn't swim due to nerve damage to right arm...So am lucky to have survived.....In conversation with department directors subsequently,we discussed SLSA research which demonstrated that a person of light stature would have difficulty duck diving,&so fr the last 7 years I have been allowed to wear a less buoyant vest combined with wetsuit...No longer..I am now required to comply...&Manager Marine Ops suggests finding an inflatable option...so I've just asked if he has a list...I am aware of Hero Inflatable Rashie ($263).& GregB has obtained a waist worn inflatable ($80)...anybody got other suggestions...I guess a pfd 1? .... Hb



That's really ****ty, Harry! I understand the effect of a 50N vest + wetsuit on someone light. Another good reason that they shouldn't be compulsory.

I've had a look at those inflatable vests. On one hand, they solve the problem of buoyancy in the waves when they are packed away. On the other hand, if you ever actually had to use one, at 100N - 150N, with a float design that turns you on you back, there is no way you could negotiate breaking waves, even small ones. And in strong wind conditions, I'd be worried about uncontrollably being blown down wind once they are inflated.

russh
SA, 3025 posts
6 Aug 2020 2:41PM
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So with the wording on the front of that vest Ian "Forward"- should we be expecting you'll be chucking a few big doubles from now on - when you're in the vest!!!!

profian
SA, 200 posts
6 Aug 2020 8:13PM
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Forward doubles, Russ? I wish...Just happy to get a decent gybe....

Meanwhile, here's a bit more info following on from Harry's comment about his weight... This is really important... It all comes down to physics and Archimedes' Principle. The general idea is that if the weight of the volume of water you displace when you are immersed in it is greater than your weight, then you will float. Buoyancy vests work by effectively increasing your volume (or decreasing your overall density to be precise) without increasing your weight.

The "N" number in the buoyancy vest specs refers to "Newtons" = the equivalent force they exert to keep you above water. To support a 1kg weight you need a force of about 10 (actually 9.8) Newtons. So a 50N vest will make you seem 5kg lighter. How can that help if you weigh 70kg (a bit less than me)? Our bodies are about 80% water which does not make any difference to how well we float in water. So we need to balance out the remaining 20% or so. For 70kg, that is about 14kg. So adding 5kg of support increases our buoyancy by about 30%, which is pretty significant, but still manageable, I think (hope...). But for someone weighing about 60kg, that difference is closer to 50%, which is a big increase in buoyancy, probably too much to swim against in a duck dive, as Harry found.

On the other hand, if you weigh 85kg, a 50N vest will provide useful support if you need it in an emergency but should not inhibit your ability to duck dive too much (though we need to test this...).These numbers are all just approximations (except for the relation between Newtons and weight!). Other variables include the thickness of your wetsuit, how much body fat you have, the weight of your other gear, such as your harness, etc. Duck diving under waves requires a bit of technique, just like any other skill.

But the take-home message here is that there is no simple, single answer to this buoyancy vest business... Which is why, despite my feeling that a 50N vest should be OK for most people in most circumstances, that will not universally be the case, and therefore, they should not be compulsory.

Phew...

profian
SA, 200 posts
18 Aug 2020 4:22PM
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Vest Test - Real World Update

I had a good chance to test the Forward WIP Flow 50N vest today at Middleton, 20-30kts, NW, small swell up about 2 feet if you were lucky.

The verdict is that it worked pretty much as predicted from my swimming tests at Moana. First up, it's comfortable, though initially, there was a tendency for it to ride up a bit. This was fixed by tightening the side strap/buckle and using a piece of velcro tape to hold the bottom of the vest down onto the spreader bar of my harness. My vest is the L size... maybe M would have been a bit better (less loose?) but it probably would be worse for the fit to be too tight. Overall, not really an issue... There was no interference between the vest and the harness itself.

Next: moving in the water with your gear. As I predicted / hoped, I had no trouble at all in moving around / under my board and rig in the water. Ducking under the sail / board; holding the mast tip down into and under a breaking wave; flipping the gear around; swimming in with gear; etc... all were no more difficult that usual. When pushing / holding your gear down under a wave, the force of the water on the sail far outweighs the extra buoyancy of the vest. It will be interesting to see with bigger waves, but their greater force should make this manoeuvre easier rather than harder.

Finally, some surprising benefits (!!!)... The additional buoyancy actually felt good in the water, especially giving a bit more lift into a water start. It also made it easier moving the aboard and rig around in the water, simply because my shoulders were just that much higher. And swimming with the gear is definitely easier. And it's warmer!!! The neoprene padding / flotation panels shield the upper body from wind-chill... (as well as acting as an impact absorber to protect your ribs).

A couple of other crew also tried out the same vests today and found them OK too. I'll let them comment rather than quote them...

So, if we really have to wear these things, the Forward WIP Flow 50N is a good choice. It's legal (at least out to 400m); it's very well designed and made; and, much to my surprise, actually has some positives. I'll probably keep wearing it as a matter of course (just like I do my helmet), since like any decent insurance policy, it provides some potential help when you might need it with minimal cost.

gmitton
SA, 1429 posts
21 Sep 2020 7:00PM
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Just got mine from Binks. Important to try them on as the sizing is not what u might expect. Report pending...

asdmuzak
SA, 278 posts
21 Sep 2020 9:08PM
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I appreciate your gusto on this topic but it is far from helping to fight this stupid legislation.
Noone has ever needed rescue on a windsurfer in South oz ever.
We need a campaign to fight the stupidity that this is.
Mitton noone cares about your pending report, we all know what a life jacket can do.

We all need to start calling this guy, send an email, make a call do something,
Otherwise follow the leader sheep

Gordon Panton
Manager Marine Safety & ComplianceMarine ServicesRoad & Marine Services Division
Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure
T 08 8260 0027 (Internal 23027) ? M 0488 105 230 ? E gordon.panton@sa.gov.au
13 Kateena St Regency Park ? PO Box 2526 Regency Park SA 5942 ? www.dpti.sa.gov.au

Call email harrass cause this is stupid.

gmitton
SA, 1429 posts
21 Sep 2020 9:21PM
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Not happy about it. Agree the stats demonstrate this is not what we need. Less safe overall. Just don't want to get fined by ill informed authorities. Will send in my 'Lobby' email...

gmitton
SA, 1429 posts
22 Sep 2020 6:23PM
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Too scared to wear it...

profian
SA, 200 posts
24 Sep 2020 9:10PM
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As I've said all along, these things shouldn't be compulsory... Individuals making submissions / complaints about the legislation / rules is useful but a well-argued submission from an organisation that represents the punters concerned generally carries even more weight. And even better, if it co-ordinated with other representative groups, eg the kiters, SUPers, etc... I'd guess there'd be plenty of us who'd be happy to put in to help WSA do something like this.

Shifu
QLD, 1947 posts
25 Sep 2020 1:01PM
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Interesting and informative thread guys.

profian
SA, 200 posts
25 Sep 2020 2:19PM
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Select to expand quote
profian said..
As I've said all along, these things shouldn't be compulsory... Individuals making submissions / complaints about the legislation / rules is useful but a well-argued submission from an organisation that represents the punters concerned generally carries even more weight. And even better, if it co-ordinated with other representative groups, eg the kiters, SUPers, etc... I'd guess there'd be plenty of us who'd be happy to put in to help WSA do something like this.


This from the kiters...

www.change.org/p/department-of-planning-transport-and-infrastructure-change-of-pfd-legislation-for-kitesurfers



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"Vest test" started by profian