Looking at the new crop of wings coming out it seems that the manufacturers are trying to make them as rigid as possible. In my experience this is great for low end but can also have some negative outcomes, especially at the top end of a wings range eg backwinding/diving , becoming very back handed , or bucking around in the hands - especially when cranking upwind.
I'm an ex windsurfer , so the concept of a sail that twists off to vent excess pressure is normal to me, I'm not seeing ( or feeling) much of this concept in most current wing designs though. I sail upwind using a harness so like to hold down some power.
My style of winging is to power upwind then turn and ride swell back downwind - not into jumping , I'm all about the glide. I just need a wing to have great range, be very good upwind, and flag out nice and stable - I'm very happy currently with my 4 and 5m sizes . I also have a variety of small wings for 30kt+ conditions and almost all of them are very stiff, leading to a very on/off ( twitchy) sailing experience upwind , they are very easy to oversheet. I guess I'm still looking for that perfect small storm wing under 3m, one that behaves itself and is easy to use , has great overall range, and doesn't get too unruly in the gusts.
I wonder whether there's a place for designing in a bit more flex in smaller sized wings ? Kind of like how the best kite designers make allowances for their smaller sized kites eg to try to slow down the turning of smaller sizes so they don't become unusably fast , instead of just blindly scaling them down from the larger sizes without changing anything else.
Interested in peoples thoughts , and whether they have found a wing that works particularly well in the small sizes. I will tolerate a bit of twitchiness in my small wings , but in all honesty I'd prefer it if they were calmer in the hands and didn't oversheet so much. Thanks in advance for your input
( PS , I like to be appropriately/comfortably powered for the conditions, I'm not into holding a 4m in 40 knots ! )
Interesting you mention this. I just watched the video about the new Ocean Rodeo wing using Aluula which makes them super stiff and they mentioned that they have recognised that some flex in the wing tips is a good thing and have thus designed them to have some flex.
I'm a lightweight and ride the same way (upwind then flag downwind wave rides, no jumping). I like my used F-one Strikes better for that reason, it feels like a flexy top windsurfing sail that really open up in the gusts. The new ones while responsive are almost too on& off. Can't even imagine stiffer stuff.
But if you are into freestyle then it's the opposite.
Select to expand quotedrlazone said..
I'm a lightweight and ride the same way (upwind then flag downwind wave rides, no jumping). I like my used F-one Strikes better for that reason, it feels like a flexy top windsurfing sail that really open up in the gusts. The new ones while responsive are almost too on& off. Can't even imagine stiffer stuff.
But if you are into freestyle then it's the opposite.
Interesting - there's a lot of talk about wings bagging out but maybe there is an upside ( bottom end will suffer though). i guess to continue the windsurfing comparison , my ideal is to have a taut , elastic feel with some back hand pressure to sheet against , but not super rigidity ( like a cammed race sail ) where it is hard to find the sheeting sweet spot
I like my BRM 2.2M, as it seems to be pretty well behaved in strong winds. There must be some flex there, but it is pretty stiff being so small.
My new hookipa Nitro 4M is very stiff (11 psi!), which may lend to its backwinding behavior when driving upwind too hard, although the backwinding isn't drastic and easy to reset instantly. I may try inflating to 11 psi, locking the strut pinch valve, then letting some air out of the leading edge to around 8 or 9 psi to see if it makes a difference with the backwinding. The 11 psi lends it some extremely stable airs though!
Have you played with inflation pressure?.
I inflate my Takoon V2's 0.5 to 1 PSI below max manufacturer recommendation.
It softens the wing a bit and makes them a bit tamer and less tiring to use.
Select to expand quotemikesids said..
...
I also have a variety of small wings for 30kt+ conditions and almost all of them are very stiff, leading to a very on/off ( twitchy) sailing experience upwind , they are very easy to oversheet.
...
I tried my smallest wing (Ullman Osprey 3.2) two times, though not in the proper storm conditions. The feeling was exactly as you described - on/off. I still need to test it in the proper storm to see if it will behave better.Select to expand quotemcrt said..
Have you played with inflation pressure?.
I inflate my Takoon V2's 0.5 to 1 PSI below max manufacturer recommendation.
It softens the wing a bit and makes them a bit tamer and less tiring to use.
Thanks for the hint, will try that when that storm comes :)
That said, I loved the Ensis 4.5 wing rigidity - that wing worked great from 10ish kts to well over 20 kts for my 72 kgs. Since this v1 wing exploded I will probably buy a newer Ensis Score of the same size because it was my favourite wing.
Can a wing be too rigid? The short answer is yes.
The longer answer is that it's dependent on use case and local conditions. My go-to wings are Strike V2s and DLabs. The former for surfing and gusty conditions and the latter for racing and steady conditions. I used to have a full quiver of A-Wing V2s and nothing else-they're powerful, rigid, and have a lot of grunt, which is great for low end and pointing upwind but cumbersome for handling gusts. Armstrong suggests lowering the air-fill pressure by one psi but the resultant difference is not significant.
The Strike V2s, which are still relatively rigid, handle gusts noticeably better than anything else I've ever used. And that's considering that I've had the opportunity to try quite a few wings (Ensis, Ozone, Duotone, Naish, BRM, Reedin, Takuma)-mostly from friends in my local area. My Strike V2s are still crisp but can be used comfortably in a greater wind range than compared to my old A-Wing V2s (and yes, I know that pushing a wing's upper wind range shortens its lifespan but that's another point of discussion). I presume that its floppy handles helps to absorb gusts but I've been told by a few dealers that the magic comes from its shape and profile. I think that's probably true. I'd be happy using nothing but the Strike V2s if I had to choose.
I have found that stiffer frames increase stability in gusty or choppy water conditions. I pretty much always over pump my wings by 1psi to get a little extra stiffness and a lot better upwind performance.
high wind instability, backwinding, and on/off power delivery has a lot more to do with the shape and design of the entire wing than how stiff the frame is. you can get a tight canopy and stiff frame without compromising stability.\
I'm interested in handle stiffness to ease gust response. Id guess a stiff front handle for stability and flexible back handle with some spring could work really well.
Select to expand quoteFoilAddict said..
I have found that stiffer frames increase stability in gusty or choppy water conditions. I pretty much always over pump my wings by 1psi to get a little extra stiffness and a lot better upwind performance.
high wind instability, backwinding, and on/off power delivery has a lot more to do with the shape and design of the entire wing than how stiff the frame is. you can get a tight canopy and stiff frame without compromising stability.\
I'm interested in handle stiffness to ease gust response. Id guess a stiff front handle for stability and flexible back handle with some spring could work really well.
Interesting feedback. Ocean Rodeo is exploring the possibilities of using a combo of the carbon handle up front and the velcro soft handle at the back (noted at AWSI). Also curious to see whether a happy medium can be reached for certain conditions.
Select to expand quoteFoilAddict said..
I have found that stiffer frames increase stability in gusty or choppy water conditions. I pretty much always over pump my wings by 1psi to get a little extra stiffness and a lot better upwind performance.
high wind instability, backwinding, and on/off power delivery has a lot more to do with the shape and design of the entire wing than how stiff the frame is. you can get a tight canopy and stiff frame without compromising stability.\
I'm interested in handle stiffness to ease gust response. Id guess a stiff front handle for stability and flexible back handle with some spring could work really well.
Your guess is on the money. I tried the new Ocean Rodeo 5M in in overpowered gusty conditions with their new carbon handle on the front and the floppy handle on the back and that's exactly the feedback I got. You can push it harder upwind and handle the gusts in controlled manner.
Interestingly, with their new airframe they combined the Aluula gold (82 gsm) with their new Graflyte (74 gsm)at the tips of the leading edge and along the sides of the strut in order to control the deformation of the airframe under load. They were also promoting pumping the strut one psi under recommended pressure for the same reason.
The designer of Reedin wings spent a fair amount of time with the owner of Aluula on the booth. Seems like he really like the new canopy material.
I reject your notion in the first post that stiff wings backwind or don't handle gusts well. I have the dlabs which are the stiffest wing by a country mile. They handle gusts extremely well. They never backwind. Backwinding seems to be about shape and I think a wing that deforms may backwind more. I've had the 5.5 and 4.0 out in mega overpowered conditions and it never backwinded but held its shape.
Stiffness seems to realllly help pumping into foil in light winds. I think the dlabs are not very powerful wings for their size especially underpowered, but they are actually better in light because you get 100% of your pump power and none is lost to trashbagginess.
Other downsides. comfort in gusty conditions for sure. I have the slick sls and it's just smoother but still doesn't deform much.
Hi, didn't mean to imply that all stiff wings backwind or have the draft move back. But I've tried a lot of wings now ( not the DLab tho) and some of the very rigid ones had those characteristics , which I don't like. There is a small subset of wings that pull forward when a gust hits, and I like these very much. Others significantly load up the back hand in a gust, and I'm not such a fan of this. The one wing that sticks in my mind as having nice handling in nuking conditions was a little 2m Airush FreeWing v1. It definitely had some flex in the frame but was super fun to use when it was in its wind range and didn't get too boisterous when very powered up. Got me thinking about how flex might help handling . Although if the wind lulls when you are on a 2m you are a goner . So a sub 3m storm wing with a wide range and especially a great top end ( up to 45kt gusts) and stable handling would be my ideal
Select to expand quotemikesids said..
There is a small subset of wings that pull forward when a gust hits, and I like these very much.
This seems like an engineering problem where you'd want the centre stiff and then the tips flexible to blow off some energy like a floppy leach.
Has anyone experimented with battens?
Cams, flexible leach tuning, masts are all interesting ideas for performance where packing small isn't a design constraint
Select to expand quoteFoilAddict said..
I have found that stiffer frames increase stability in gusty or choppy water conditions. I pretty much always over pump my wings by 1psi to get a little extra stiffness and a lot better upwind performance.
high wind instability, backwinding, and on/off power delivery has a lot more to do with the shape and design of the entire wing than how stiff the frame is. you can get a tight canopy and stiff frame without compromising stability.\
I'm interested in handle stiffness to ease gust response. Id guess a stiff front handle for stability and flexible back handle with some spring could work really well.
I've ridden an Ocean Rodeo Aluula wing with a carbon front handle and soft rear. Felt pretty good!
I've had naish and ensis before f one strikes v2. The naish was not good in any range, the ensis great power low end but top end a battle. But the strikes are awesome, low end not as good as ensis but with a different pumping technique still get up fine but once flying up to the real top end range they're great. Had my 5,4 and 3 all out at and past the top end and still really manageable.
Mike
On the smaller wings with smaller diameter leading edges, if the wing is super stiff and you crash and or drag the wing tip hard enough to flex the wing hard, it is possible to tear the aluula material.
Select to expand quoteFoilAddict said..
I have found that stiffer frames increase stability in gusty or choppy water conditions. I pretty much always over pump my wings by 1psi to get a little extra stiffness and a lot better upwind performance.
high wind instability, backwinding, and on/off power delivery has a lot more to do with the shape and design of the entire wing than how stiff the frame is. you can get a tight canopy and stiff frame without compromising stability.\
I'm interested in handle stiffness to ease gust response. Id guess a stiff front handle for stability and flexible back handle with some spring could work really well.
Agreed with the handles. I have rigid front handle with a soft rear on my A Series.
Man I'm still on my original PPC. All this fancy stuff wish I had the coin. I've demoed a few others. I find it's good compromise between rigidity and comfort. Good at bottom and top end. Fairly flat not much dihedral. Flags prettt good. Nothing outstanding just decent at it all. Then again they are bagged out to crap lol.
haven't ridden anything as yet to warrant a change. But I'm always open to try!
