Canopy Stretch

Just wondering how easily some canopy's can stretch in over powered conditions. I was out the other day on a 4m Smik V1 , that I normally use in about 15 - 20 kts. Wind picked to about 20-30 so let some pressure out of leading edge but still overpowered quite a bit. It might just be me but I reckon the canopy looks a bit flappy in places it wasn't previous to that session, when wing is sitting on the lawn pumped up. It's possible though that there's no change in wing condition after overpowered session, and that I just noticed stretch in the canopy that was always there after the session. Can using wings in heaps over powered conditions stretch the canopy?

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BWalnut said..

Sambo # said..
Just wondering how easily some canopy's can stretch in over powered conditions. I was out the other day on a 4m Smik V1 , that I normally use in about 15 - 20 kts. Wind picked to about 20-30 so let some pressure out of leading edge but still overpowered quite a bit. It might just be me but I reckon the canopy looks a bit flappy in places it wasn't previous to that session, when wing is sitting on the lawn pumped up. Maybe I only just noticed that day. Can using wings in heaps over powered conditions stretch the canopy?

Thanks for saying this! I've been thinking it for a while but don't care to intentionally beat up my wings to test it.

However, I will say that I rode my 4.2m a few weeks back and took a break mid session, wind came up but I didn't want to pump another wing. Next thing you know I'm out in gusts well up into the 30s on my 4.2m. After about 90 minutes of that I called it a day.
A few days later I went out in light wind with my 4.2m again and had a very strong feeling that the low end wasn't what it used to be. Looked over the wing and didn't see anything terribly obvious, but it felt like it had lost a bit of punch on the water start.
lesson learned.

Given that canopy materials do stretch, some more than others, it makes sense that a solid overpowering for half an hour plus could cause stretch. Just a thought.As to whether stretch could occur within say a half hour up to an hour and a half who knows ? Maybe depends on the type of canopy material, age of material, how much strain is put on it in overpowered conditions (ie fully leaning and pulling wing in towards body), and maybe other factors. My guess Is the older the wing and the more use it has had the more susceptible it would be to stretching in over powered wind. I know some fabrics , not canopy fabric, degrade over time and weaken. This can be sped up too by exposure to sunlight. So if this is applicable to canopy fabric , add to it use in wind over time, and then give it a good overpowering and maybe it's possible that one overpowered session could cause visable stretch ?

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Sambo # said..

BWalnut said..

Sambo # said..
Just wondering how easily some canopy's can stretch in over powered conditions. I was out the other day on a 4m Smik V1 , that I normally use in about 15 - 20 kts. Wind picked to about 20-30 so let some pressure out of leading edge but still overpowered quite a bit. It might just be me but I reckon the canopy looks a bit flappy in places it wasn't previous to that session, when wing is sitting on the lawn pumped up. Maybe I only just noticed that day. Can using wings in heaps over powered conditions stretch the canopy?

Thanks for saying this! I've been thinking it for a while but don't care to intentionally beat up my wings to test it.

However, I will say that I rode my 4.2m a few weeks back and took a break mid session, wind came up but I didn't want to pump another wing. Next thing you know I'm out in gusts well up into the 30s on my 4.2m. After about 90 minutes of that I called it a day.
A few days later I went out in light wind with my 4.2m again and had a very strong feeling that the low end wasn't what it used to be. Looked over the wing and didn't see anything terribly obvious, but it felt like it had lost a bit of punch on the water start.
lesson learned.

Given that canopy materials do stretch, some more than others, it makes sense that a solid overpowering for half an hour plus could cause stretch. Just a thought.As to whether stretch could occur within say a half hour up to an hour and a half who knows ? Maybe depends on the type of canopy material, age of material, how much strain is put on it in overpowered conditions (ie fully leaning and pulling wing in towards body), and maybe other factors. My guess Is the older the wing and the more use it has had the more susceptible it would be to stretching in over powered wind. I know some fabrics , not canopy fabric, degrade over time and weaken. This can be sped up too by exposure to sunlight. So if this is applicable to canopy fabric , add to it use in wind over time, and then give it a good overpowering and maybe it's possible that one overpowered session could cause visable stretch ?

Seems very possible that a single session of heavily overpowered riding could push a wing over the limit.
This also leads to questions about jumping for me. I assume that's not especially good for a wing haha.

Also weight. Since lighter riders naturally use smaller wings in less wind, do their wings last longer? When I'm out on a 3m and the guy next to me is boosting on a 5m my wing is clearly going to last longer for various reasons, yes?

All things to consider.

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BWalnut said..

Sambo # said..

BWalnut said..

Sambo # said..
Just wondering how easily some canopy's can stretch in over powered conditions. I was out the other day on a 4m Smik V1 , that I normally use in about 15 - 20 kts. Wind picked to about 20-30 so let some pressure out of leading edge but still overpowered quite a bit. It might just be me but I reckon the canopy looks a bit flappy in places it wasn't previous to that session, when wing is sitting on the lawn pumped up. Maybe I only just noticed that day. Can using wings in heaps over powered conditions stretch the canopy?

Thanks for saying this! I've been thinking it for a while but don't care to intentionally beat up my wings to test it.

However, I will say that I rode my 4.2m a few weeks back and took a break mid session, wind came up but I didn't want to pump another wing. Next thing you know I'm out in gusts well up into the 30s on my 4.2m. After about 90 minutes of that I called it a day.
A few days later I went out in light wind with my 4.2m again and had a very strong feeling that the low end wasn't what it used to be. Looked over the wing and didn't see anything terribly obvious, but it felt like it had lost a bit of punch on the water start.
lesson learned.

Given that canopy materials do stretch, some more than others, it makes sense that a solid overpowering for half an hour plus could cause stretch. Just a thought.As to whether stretch could occur within say a half hour up to an hour and a half who knows ? Maybe depends on the type of canopy material, age of material, how much strain is put on it in overpowered conditions (ie fully leaning and pulling wing in towards body), and maybe other factors. My guess Is the older the wing and the more use it has had the more susceptible it would be to stretching in over powered wind. I know some fabrics , not canopy fabric, degrade over time and weaken. This can be sped up too by exposure to sunlight. So if this is applicable to canopy fabric , add to it use in wind over time, and then give it a good overpowering and maybe it's possible that one overpowered session could cause visable stretch ?

Seems very possible that a single session of heavily overpowered riding could push a wing over the limit.
This also leads to questions about jumping for me. I assume that's not especially good for a wing haha.

Also weight. Since lighter riders naturally use smaller wings in less wind, do their wings last longer? When I'm out on a 3m and the guy next to me is boosting on a 5m my wing is clearly going to last longer for various reasons, yes?

All things to consider.

I think that was true of older wings. My later models are holding up well. Panel layout has improved a lot.

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krixikraxi said..
My Slingshot Slingwing V4 7.0 (the latest version) is almost a total loss after my second session with it.
The wind was picking up to 20 knots and gusting 25 but I kept staying out there as I was surprised by the impressive high end of the wing. It was still controlable with normal effort. About an hour I was riding it that way.
Back at the beach the big surprise followed. The canopy was bagged out like an old shopping bag.
OK, I weigh 120kg and sure I am stressing them more than the usual winger is doing so, but come on! only one hour and junk afterwards?

Very disappointing! Never had this issue with my former Neil Pryde Flys. OK, their were fluttering but keeping their shape.
Neil Prydes had a deeper draft, Slingwings have a fletter draft. Maybe a coincidence?

Maybe there's a fault with the wing. Could try calling Slingshot or the place where you bought it and see what they think/say. Never know you might get a replacement on warranty.

Our crew of wingers has decided dacron leading edges flex and stretch the canopy, worse than Aluula. Aluula gets you more usable life from the current canopies. All my buddies are switching to Aluula wings for this season. I switched to Aluula also.

I have a buddy who still rides the original Ocean Rodeo wings from their first season of production. Some of this guys quiver is made up of my old ORs I sold to him. Those originals had tissue paper canopy. The old 2x2 cheap stuff. The yellow film is almost all worn off the Aluula, yet the canopy still looks OK. Way better than they should. They must be 4 years old.

It took awhile to figure this out, but now that we have, there is no going back to dacron. Leave the dacron wings to part time weekend warriors. Not people who ride nearly everyday year round.

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DWF said..
Our crew of wingers has decided dacron leading edges flex and stretch the canopy, worse than Aluula. Aluula gets you more usable life from the current canopies. All my buddies are switching to Aluula wings for this season. I switched to Aluula also.

I have a buddy who still rides the original Ocean Rodeo wings from their first season of production. Some of this guys quiver is made up of my old ORs I sold to him. Those originals had tissue paper canopy. The old 2x2 cheap stuff. The yellow film is almost all worn off the Aluula, yet the canopy still looks OK. Way better than they should. They must be 4 years old.

It took awhile to figure this out, but now that we have, there is no going back to dacron. Leave the dacron wings to part time weekend warriors. Not people who ride nearly everyday year round.

Full agreement. My buddy has a glide A 5m with coming up on 100 sessions.
Here's my quiver for the season:
2.5m glide a. 3 and 4m AA. Might trade a foil for a 2.5mAA this week as well.

Thought we had put this one to bed in a thread now 2/3 the way down the list...

Ultimately it's up to your 'feeling' about how your wing is performing for you. Are you pursuing wingfoiling as a sailing sport or just using your wing as a way of getting to the next wave so you can get that thing out of the way?

I'm trying to 'save' my V4 Strikes for summer by using my year old V2s until they sell. Two days ago in OP'ed 4.5 conditions doing a 10km upwind I noticed a small difference in upwind angle between a buddy on his 4M V3 (he's 26Kg lighter and a better technical sailor).
Sometimes he'd really be besting me for upwind angle, other times not but the point is we both arrived at about the same time.

When I use the V4 4.5 it feels much more 'winglike' than the V2, especially noticeable in tacks and upwind angle but the V2 is still perfectly serviceable Frankly so are the V1's I never sold and I would guess many folks here would consider my V1s and 2s to be beyond their 'useful life'.

Nonsense, this all comes down to how picky you are. If you've got the money to burn, please burn it. Ultimately it's improving my standard of living

Bagging out wing mostly from deformed frame not from canopy stretch.Most newer wing has some pre-tension the frame and reinforcement underside of the LE make it more durable.

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BWalnut said..

Thatspec said..
Thought we had put this one to bed in a thread now 2/3 the way down the list...

This is a different topic to this one. This is reflecting upon overloading a wing.

hilly said..

warwickl said..

hilly said..

Not so sure. Used my V3 Smiks everyday there is wind with no issues with over 18 months use. Aluula is expensive and hard to fix if damaged.

Aluula is not hard to fix in my area as we have a few experienced repairers that are very good.

The Aluula wings that coped big waves on them exploded and we have no repairers nearby. Dacron is the winner.

The new aluula wings have iron on patches and in a recent interview there was talk about a aluula bladder as well.

By all means, if you are going to ride and potentially get slammed in big waves ride a wing that you aren't worried about. I would. Saying that dacron didn't explode tells me that the dacron is actually more flimsy while the aluula is rigid which, for me, not getting slammed in big waves, is a huge plus.

My favorite thing about the aluula wings though is the weight savings. They are so much more fun for me to fly. I'm in it for the fun, secondary, if the gear lasts longer, great. My new aluula canopies are pre stretched and do not have a tight canopy feel like my old wings did. I'm thinking that a super tight canopy actually increases the likelihood of deformation. As such, having a no stretch canopy and frame, that is already low tension, should continue to avoid degradation when overpowered or when used for long periods of time.

Already low tension frame ? Is this leading edge and strut rigidity. And do some lose rigidity (tension) with use and then cause canopy stretch ?

Also saw these the other day (see link below) They say you should get 5 years use out them. Any one got one and what are they like ?

I pretty much only ride swell and for me, the AA wings are all I want to ride. I expect to ride the 3m 95% of the time and it's such a joy in the hand when surfing. If you haven't tried it, you really can't comprehend the difference. For me, it was the biggest single upgrade I've ever made to my wingfoil kit.

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Gorgo said..
it's vaguely interesting that in the video of the AA wings I can see the stitching of the leading edge on the black reinforcement. Most wings the zig zags line up and form a neat pattern.

On the AA wing the zigzags are all over the place, going from perfectly in synch, to totally out of synch, usually within a single run of stitching.

The implication is that the fabric is slipping while it's being sewn. I don't think it makes any difference structurally, but I would expect better in a $5000 wing

Great that there are pioneers (and industry insiders) willing to take the arrows on tech like this but...
At the moment you can buy nearly FOUR 2.5 V3 Strikes for the price of the 2.5 OR AA. So much for the longevity argument.

I'm a capitalist first and foremost though so by all means spenddddd

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Thatspec said..

Gorgo said..
it's vaguely interesting that in the video of the AA wings I can see the stitching of the leading edge on the black reinforcement. Most wings the zig zags line up and form a neat pattern.

On the AA wing the zigzags are all over the place, going from perfectly in synch, to totally out of synch, usually within a single run of stitching.

The implication is that the fabric is slipping while it's being sewn. I don't think it makes any difference structurally, but I would expect better in a $5000 wing

Great that there are pioneers (and industry insiders) willing to take the arrows on tech like this but...
At the moment you can buy nearly FOUR 2.5 V3 Strikes for the price of the 2.5 OR AA. So much for the longevity argument.

I'm a capitalist first and foremost though so by all means spenddddd

That would be a heavily discounted strike v3 ;-) For that matter, you can probably get 20 slingshot javelins for the same price haha.

I have the Strike v3 3m as well as the Glide AA 3m. They aren't in the same class. The AA has shockingly better low end, definitely better high end, weighs 325 grams less, is more stable upwind, flags out better, etc.

There's a lot of people who focus on nothing but price for the wing and that's fine. For me, performance is far more important in my hobbies. I want to maximize my fun on the water and this is, actually, the first wing I've ever actually loved to fly. Everything else for me was always "a tool to get me on foil and into a wave."

However, this thread is about canopy bagging out and I think that the 5 year lifespan stated in that video is going to be user dependent. I'm at 152 sessions in the last 11 months. I'm tracking canopy mileage and making videos of the canopy at various mile points to track wear and bagging in a variety of ways. Regardless of how the AA lasts in the long run, I fully believe in quality construction and high end materials being better than cheap construction and low end materials.

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Thatspec said..

BWalnut said..

A: That would be a heavily discounted strike v3 ;-) For that matter, you can probably get 20 slingshot javelins for the same price haha.

B: I have the Strike v3 3m as well as the Glide AA 3m. They aren't in the same class. The AA has shockingly better low end, definitely better high end, weighs 325 grams less, is more stable upwind, flags out better, etc.

C: There's a lot of people who focus on nothing but price for the wing and that's fine.

A: Happy to point you to that deal via PM.

B: 325 grams is significant in a wing this small but... reminiscent of trying to take the last 250 grams off of a road bike, also costs about $1500 and makes no difference whatsoever (unless it's on the outside of the wheels...) In 25+ knots (4M and smaller) weight becomes less and less important. A little heavier may even be an advantage in average 40, gusts to 60+.

Not here for a debate though. If you're interested in proving your point we'll meet I'm sure at Rufus or the Hatchery one day and swap wings. Sometime next month I'll eventually leave these 70+ water and air temps and come home to cut my lawn (probably waist high).

C: My parents grew up in the tail end of the depression so the value of a $ (such as it is), is etched into my initial programing. Affording it is not the problem. Justifying it to myself is so if the OR AA is truly in another class from the Strike V3 / V4 (color me skeptical), sure I'll buy a whole quiver (it would really have to be a startling difference).

No debate, not trying to sell you on it at all. I prefer data and testing to formulate opinions though. I don't ever want to write gear off based on price. If I try it and it doesn't justify the price then so be it (the new super high modulus mast I'm testing) but I don't discredit products based on the $$$ sign if I haven't ridden them.

4m is not 25+ for me. Some stats and data:
I have ridden the 4mAA in average wind down to 10 knots on an 1150 foil. I have never ridden it in 20 knots, I'm always on the 3m AA as soon as it is mid to upper teens. This wing is 460g lighter than the same size strike v4. That is a MASSIVE weight shift in light wind riding. The published low end is 15-30 (15 knot range) on the AA, 22-32 (10 knot range) on the Strike v4.

I have a 2.5m Glide A that is 50 grams lighter than my 2m Strike v3. I just had the Glide A out in 39 knot gusts and never wished it was heavier. The AA 2.5m will be lighter I expect.

So, without riding we can see a 50% increase in wind range and substantial weight savings. Once up and riding the rest of the details can be assessed.

The road bike example is a bit flawed. 250g off a road bike would be a 3.7% weight drop off a professional race bike with a performance increase that I have no knowledge to evaluate. The weight difference in the wings is a 21.8% weight reduction in the 4m (25% weight savings at 3m) AND you get a 50% increase in wind range.

Nothing personal, but I don't intend to let people ride my gear. I think most everyone has had their equipment trashed that way. Perhaps Windance will offer demos this year so you can give it a crack! John, the guy in that video was a dedicated Strike rider since the beginning I think. As far as I know, now he's only riding the AA's.

Again, this thread is about overloading wings and damaging them. I'll be super bummed if my wings don't last. I really will be. However, I am beyond stoked with the build quality and performance right now. Better than anything I've ever flown by a mile. I'll keep collecting and sharing data. In the end, if you don't ever get the chance to fly these wings I can always understand the hesitation to take a leap of faith if you're focused on the price point.

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camerongraham said..
I'm considering replacing my Strike V2 5.5 at some point and this discussion got me to go and look at the OR AA as an option
AU$5000 !

Ok, now I understand the price point "arguments" in this thread

its crazy, for a bit of fabric !!, makes a foil drive seem reasonable !!

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BWalnut said..
I pretty much only ride swell and for me, the AA wings are all I want to ride. I expect to ride the 3m 95% of the time and it's such a joy in the hand when surfing. If you haven't tried it, you really can't comprehend the difference. For me, it was the biggest single upgrade I've ever made to my wingfoil kit.

no doubt except the biggest upgrade i have made is what's under the board cause when im on a swell or wave the wing doesnt matter much to me.