Hi,
My wife and I started windfoiling with the Blue/Green Gen1 NP Glide Foil series, then upgraded to the Red Gen2 versions. Happy enough.
Wy wife then moved to a Sabfoil windfoil 799/399. Very happy with that, she literally does thousands of km a year, small sails 3.7~5.3, 115L JP Freefoil.
So I decided to Wing a year or two ago and I bought a big 7'2" JP Wingfoil board and 3x Gen 2 Duotone Echo 4m, 5m2 and 6m2 Wings, made some carbon booms for them (there's some posts here with photos how I did that) and I enjoy them OK (better wings than Gen 1!). Bit of a handful when it's strong, but as a previous (and still!) keen Windsurfer, I really enjoy the boom. I even got myself a 5'4" 100L Konrad board (very light but quite fragile!).
Now, I am trying to get my wife into winging, but I do not want her to have a bad experience at the off. It needs to be "I can do this"...!
So, given I am likely to send her out on my current stuff, before I do (and make a mistake), is the current generation of foils, wings and to a lesser extent boards, likely to make her experience "so much" better or am I OK to just go for it with that stuff. The Echo has the disadvantage that the centre-strut sinks so it does make it harder at launch and other times.
cheers and TIA
k.
EDIT: My Carbon Booms for the Echo www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/New-Duotone-Echo-Wing?page=3
Certain brands are getting drastically better every year. Some brands v4 is still as bad as a v1.
Wingfoiling is, in my opinion, the most gear intensive and sensitive activity I have ever done. Everyone needs a different board, foil, wing, and it can make or break the entire experience at numerous points in the first few years.
So, you can try with what you have. However, everyone needs to be patient and know that different gear really can be a lot better and easier to use.
The main thing that I'd recommend is to buy newer wings. Get a Duotone Slick SLS 2022 or newer. There was a huge improvement in range and control from 2021 Slick to 2022 SLS. The 2023 Slick is even better as it's made from more durable material. Only very minor improvements in 2024 Slick.
to generalize quite grossly...
wings: they have gotten much more expensive, stiffer and performance oriented with better materials and and panel layouts. you can get a much lighter feel than the Echo. main disadvantage of the Echo is the sinking clew and propensity to flip over and fly erratically off the leash after you have crashed
boards: board shapes are ever evolving from modified SUP foil shapes, to wide and short bars of soap, to now getting a a bit more stretched for low end glide
foils: probably the biggest advancements here... low AR foils don't really exist much anymore and sections and outlines have been refined. connection systems also have advanced quite a bit. carbon masts used to be pretty noodly but now you can get a slim, stiff masts.
stuff is way better now, but it was still fun four years ago when the equipment was primitive. sometimes I do miss that soft, spongy feeling of the wing (ride super stiff wing now) until I actually get on someone's old gear.
You know your wife best and what she can or can't (or won't) deal with.
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
You know your wife best and what she can or can't (or won't) deal with.
Thanks to all for the food for thought!
Yeah on the WAF front, it's more that she has a lot (of time) invested in getting her windfoil setup to be plug and play (can rig and go in 15mins flat) and knows where to put the Sail Mast and Foil Mast, so this is more about me trying to get a jump start on "this is too hard, I'm going back to windfoiling" vs "this is actually really quite easy and a really fun experience".
I was a windfoiler from 2018 onward. Tried winging with Gen1 stuff and absolutely hated it.
Tried again in 2022 and have been on it ever since. Upgraded to a bit newer foil in 2023 (Gong to Phantasm) but honestly the difference was not that significant other than durability.
I think that making more efficient foils user friendly has been the biggest performance increase during that time. Followed by wings in 2022 (I'm still riding these) and boards most recently.
Hi jksmurf,
While wanting to see people join the foiling cult, I'd firstly ask, What will your wife get out of winging, that she doesn't get from Windfoiling? Not saying she won't get anything out of it, and fwiw, I think it will be good to get her introduced to it, but in many ways, the longer time she spends windfoiling, the easier it will generally be for her to make the transition to the wing - if she eventually goes that way. Is there something with windfoiling that she can't master that she may be able to on the wing?
If she does decide to have a crack at it, put her on the big JP board. For all the learners I've taught, volume and size is generally your friend. It's rare that learners find a board 'too big'.
Her windfoil foil might not be ideal for her to learn with depending on how fast it is and aspect ration etc etc. You might want to put her on one of your foils?
The Echo's are very old tech. Given that she has windfoiling experience, I'd say she'll probably pick up good wing technique in literally 15 minutes. Us windsurfers adapt really well to wings. As for the Echo's a lot of us learned with them, but if you want her to have a better experience, the Units and Slicks are light years ahead. Even the Gen 1 slicks I'd say are way better. Maybe pick up a cheapie for yourself that she might be able to learn with?
I moved away from windsurf foiling because I'm too much of a muppet to gybe the setup and ride waves easily. Can gybe and ride waves dead easy on the wing. It's totally changed my sailing directions. Doubt I'll ever windfoil again. Windsurfing is very limited for me in comparison to winging, so winging is the go to.
Good luck to both of you. Hope it works out.
Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
Hi jksmurf,
While wanting to see people join the foiling cult, I'd firstly ask, What will your wife get out of winging, that she doesn't get from Windfoiling?
Bloody good question, and I think she's asking me the same thing, without saying so outright. I think gybing will be easier, as the sail is not attached. She's quite good at riding the swell (not waves), we chose slower med-aspect foils for swell riding for that purpose. But she still always tacks, as I broke my foot windfoil gybing (mast trapped it on the board) and she has that picture in mind. So I am hoping to take away that possibility.
Added to that. for me at least, as we age, Wings are just easier to rig and transport, lift and carry. We've both had a bit of sciatica so the heavier sails, in light wind at least, are not the best thing.Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
Not saying she won't get anything out of it, and fwiw, I think it will be good to get her introduced to it, but in many ways, the longer time she spends windfoiling, the easier it will generally be for her to make the transition to the wing - if she eventually goes that way.
Fair enough, but she's had a good few years 2.5-3 windfoiling now, so apart from the gybes (which she has tried on flat water) loves what it brings.Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
Is there something with windfoiling that she can't master that she may be able to on the wing?
Gybing. Transporting it in a small car, carrying it, pumping up on the foil (better on a wing? maybe).Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
If she does decide to have a crack at it, put her on the big JP board. For all the learners I've taught, volume and size is generally your friend. It's rare that learners find a board 'too big'.
Okey Dokey. WIll do. Had her on the 100L but struggled a bit TBH. Too low wind, too big a swell that day.Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
Her windfoil foil might not be ideal for her to learn with depending on how fast it is and aspect ration etc etc. You might want to put her on one of your foils?
I did actually, sorry I wasn't clear on that. One of the red 1300cm2 JP ones, so not too small. I have 11/13/15.Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
The Echo's are very old tech. Given that she has windfoiling experience, I'd say she'll probably pick up good wing technique in literally 15 minutes. Us windsurfers adapt really well to wings. As for the Echo's a lot of us learned with them, but if you want her to have a better experience, the Units and Slicks are light years ahead. Even the Gen 1 slicks I'd say are way better. Maybe pick up a cheapie for yourself that she might be able to learn with?
OK, that's the sort of thing I was hoping to hear, thank you.Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
I moved away from windsurf foiling because I'm too much of a muppet to gybe the setup and ride waves easily. Can gybe and ride waves dead easy on the wing. It's totally changed my sailing directions. Doubt I'll ever windfoil again. Windsurfing is very limited for me in comparison to winging, so winging is the go to.
Righty, again, that's gerat feedback, thank you.Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
Good luck to both of you. Hope it works out.
Cheers and really appreciate you (all of you in fact) taking the time.
k.
If she likes to ride swell, wingfoiling is HEAPS more fun.
I,m coming from wavesailing and windsurffoiling. Windsurf foiling is in general faster, but riding bumps and swells, even on bigger lakes is where wingfoil shines. In my experience, most wavesailors learn fly the 2th or 3th session. Windsurf foilers for sure the 2th time so the learning curve is steep. If getting quickly going is a thing, nobody can rig a sail as fast pumping up a wing.Gearwise: 2022 and younger make a big difference on foils and wings, the mid and high aspects making life a lot easier.If she is into sab, and likes the 799, the 945 is a very easy going frontwing that is excellent in riding bumps at a slow pace. She does need a shorther fuse as the windsurf ones and explore from there.
3 things to consider.
The right gear. Big enough board. Right sized wing (don't go too big a wing, even in light conditions). Get a wing that she can hold and the wingtips don't touch the water when you try to get the thing going. When you improve, if you have a bigger wing and you try to pump it, I've found the wingtips touch and you have to start the whole pump up from scratch. And a medium aspect foil with good control and reasonable lift. Longer fuseages and bigger tails are often good for providing stability.
The right setup. Ensure the foil is placed in the correct position under the board so that when she's trying to get going, the nose doesn't suddenly rise up because the foil is too far forward, or she can't get going because the foil is too far back. You will know this through your own experience.
The right conditions. Not saying don't go out in sub-optimal conditions, but low levels of chop/waves and enough wind mean that learning is much easier. If you go out in crap, set the bar low. Don't get discouraged if you make little or no progress.
Windsurfing I thought about board, sail then fin and wrongly carried that into winging, whereas the foil choice (make and model) is by far most important, wing fairly important then board last as long as you don't go to extremes. If she wants plug n play get same brand foil and board and start with foil in the middle.As for why bother, windfoiling (never done it) seems to be about speed, and winging about fun
