When buying I never thought that foil track at the rear of the board could create problems. With mid aspect wings it worked perfect. With short width (910mm) HA front wing is still everything ok. But now I tried HA wing for lower winds with width 1100mm (1350 cm2) and found that I am not able to push enough rear foot and the foil stalls. Also it is hard to get up. It looks like foil does not get proper lift speed. and flight is wobbly.
I was thinking to drill holes in the base of the foil mounting plate to be able to move foil to the front by 45mm. Or even I am thinking to make aluminum plate to be able to move foil to the front.
In my country wingfoiling is still new sport and not popular, so we do not have second hand market and demand for equipment. And to sell board for 1/3 of the price is too painful for my wallet.
How you deal with such problem? You modify the rear of the board or are any other know how?
Select to expand quoteGencion said..
To Jagoulet: how far you drilled the holes from the front for axis foil?
From memory, 50mm
Whhhooooaa!
That's very gutsy Jagoulet! I doubt that would be within the designed engineering tolerances of the mast and base plate. If you're a lightweight, you MAY be able to get away with that, but if you're heavy, it wouldn't surprise me if that went bang just when you didn't want it to. Each to their own I guess.
Genicon, without seeing what gear you are running it makes it hard to know what's going on here. I suspect you have a board that isn't suitable for the foil brand? In other words, the foil wants to be placed on a board with a foil track that's further forwards than the one you currently have?
Are you using a different fuse? If you could find a fuse that moves the foil further forwards in relation to the mast, that may help?
I run the axis red and black fuse foils. The red fuse foils have a pretty thick leading edge and seem to take a very aggressive rear foot pump to get the foil to fly. I have the ART as well (which is a thinner front profile black fuse compatible foil) and it's not happy with the aggressive rear foot stomp. It will fly when you push down hard on the back foot, but then stalls and falls back to water surface. Ive found with these thinner front profile (often HA) foils you need to drive them forwards with speed to develop the lift and then pump more gently to get them to fly. Very different technique.
Doesn't sound like a track issue. Sound more like a technique issue. Trying to make a HA foil work like a mid aspect. HA foils need more speed for first flight. Not pushing harder on the tail. Wobbly flight is often riding too slow and near stall.
Most guys run HA wings further back in the track compared to mid aspect wings.
I have Axis black fuselage for 930 HPS which is in about mid track and my ARTs 899 and 799 are at the very back of the track. If the ARTs are in the middle of the track they perform as you have described.
I now have the Axis Advanced fuselage which allows the ARTs to have the mast mid track.
Select to expand quotewarwickl said..
Most guys run HA wings further back in the track compared to mid aspect wings.
I have Axis black fuselage for 930 HPS which is in about mid track and my ARTs 899 and 799 are at the very back of the track. If the ARTs are in the middle of the track they perform as you have described.
I now have the Axis Advanced fuselage which allows the ARTs to have the mast mid track.
Yeh as Warwicl indicated, the Axis Advanced fuselage allows you to place the mast 3-4cm further forward in the box so this would solve your problem as long as you like the feel of the advanced fuse. I absolutely do. The extra manoeuvrability is widely acknowledged but some have said there is a slight trade off with upwind ability but on the ultrashort I have not noticed this.
Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
I doubt that would be within the designed engineering tolerances of the mast and base plate.
It has zero impact on the mast and the baseplate is not an issue. It does increase by about 40% the forces on the tracks themselves. I am a lightweight so I do not care... these things are overdosing for 100kg guys.
I am using Reedin Fether 5'2 82L board, front foil wing Sroka HA 1350L, sroka foil with 300cm2 stab.
With Sroka SkyRider 6'3 board with the same conditions I can get up on foil and have a good flight. But on this board I have plenty of room for rear foot placement and put foot behind the mast. As for Reddin, my foot is above the mast.
Reedin Fether 5'2 82L board with Sroka HA 1190S front wing I can ride and gybe. I do not have problems in strong wind.
My weight is 82kg.
Select to expand quotejagoulet said..Gencion said..
To Jagoulet: how far you drilled the holes from the front for axis foil?
From memory, 50mm
Thank you. I did the drilling in the base plate. Now I am waiting for the wind to test it.
Select to expand quotewarwickl said..
Most guys run HA wings further back in the track compared to mid aspect wings.
I have Axis black fuselage for 930 HPS which is in about mid track and my ARTs 899 and 799 are at the very back of the track. If the ARTs are in the middle of the track they perform as you have described.
I now have the Axis Advanced fuselage which allows the ARTs to have the mast mid track.
You are using the same length black fuselage for the ART and HPS and they are further back with ART?
I think you have it backwards. If you're stalling the foil you need more front weight and more speed, not the back foot. Your foil needs to go further back, not forward.
Select to expand quotejagoulet said..
It does increase by about 40% the forces on the tracks themselves.
Did you measure that or just figure it from distances?
Except for jumping, the upward push of the front wing pushes the front of the adapter onto the board, and pulls the back up. The pull on the back should not be an issue, since the leverage is more favorable with the track moved forward. But the push on the front side of the adapter could possibly be an issue. It's not pushing down onto the tracks anymore, but rather directly onto the top layer of the board. If the reinforcements around the tracks extend far enough to the front, that should not be a problem, but if they don't extend to the front of the adapter, then the front edge might get pushed into the board. I've seen such things happen with the power plate adapter on windsurf boards, where the reinforcements around powerboxes tend to be minimal, after maybe 10 or 20 sessions.
Select to expand quotejagoulet said..martyj4 said..
I doubt that would be within the designed engineering tolerances of the mast and base plate.
It has zero impact on the mast and the baseplate is not an issue. It does increase by about 40% the forces on the tracks themselves. I am a lightweight so I do not care... these things are overdosing for 100kg guys.
The extra load/strain this puts on the front of the track has nothing to do with your weight. The extra leverage force comes into play the most when hitting something. Ask me how I know, LOL .
Yes I did the same mod as you but only 2.5cm.
Select to expand quoteDid you measure that or just figure it from distances?
Except for jumping, the upward push of the front wing pushes the front of the adapter onto the board, and pulls the back up. The pull on the back should not be an issue, since the leverage is more favorable with the track moved forward. But the push on the front side of the adapter could possibly be an issue. It's not pushing down onto the tracks anymore, but rather directly onto the top layer of the board. If the reinforcements around the tracks extend far enough to the front, that should not be a problem, but if they don't extend to the front of the adapter, then the front edge might get pushed into the board. I've seen such things happen with the power plate adapter on windsurf boards, where the reinforcements around powerboxes tend to be minimal, after maybe 10 or 20 sessions.
Given the stiffness of the baseplate adapter, the force distribution is governed by the distance between the plate end and the holes. I think that riding is not the critical load case; I think that crashing into reef or sand is. This is the case where the front bolts are pulled.
Regarding the overlap with the rails, I think it is good enough in my setup but it is a good point to check!
Select to expand quoteFishdude said..jagoulet said..martyj4 said..
I doubt that would be within the designed engineering tolerances of the mast and base plate.
It has zero impact on the mast and the baseplate is not an issue. It does increase by about 40% the forces on the tracks themselves. I am a lightweight so I do not care... these things are overdosing for 100kg guys.
The extra load/strain this puts on the front of the track has nothing to do with your weight. The extra leverage force comes into play the most when hitting something. Ask me how I know, LOL .
Yes I did the same mod as you but only 2.5cm.
I totally agree with you regarding the the critical load case. I broke a board like that while riding strapless:
Select to expand quoteFoilWays said..
I think you have it backwards. If you're stalling the foil you need more front weight and more speed, not the back foot. Your foil needs to go further back, not forward.
I 100% agree with this??
HA wings need more speed, moving the mast forward will get it up quicker but only to stall and come crashing back down.
Select to expand quoteNordRoi said..warwickl said..
Most guys run HA wings further back in the track compared to mid aspect wings.
I have Axis black fuselage for 930 HPS which is in about mid track and my ARTs 899 and 799 are at the very back of the track. If the ARTs are in the middle of the track they perform as you have described.
I now have the Axis Advanced fuselage which allows the ARTs to have the mast mid track.
You are using the same length black fuselage for the ART and HPS and they are further back with ART?
I run my ART's further back than HPS with the same fuselage.
Select to expand quoteMikedubs said..
Jagoulet, what's that fuse in the picture you're using with an axis foil?
Mike
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Axis-RadicallyShort--77mm-advanced-fuselage-prototype?page=1#25
This is my new prototype... it is a lot more responsive and it sheds 1lb from the foil... The front wing is the ART799.
That's cool, foils basically below the mast too, super rigid. I've got a cedrus mast so be interested to see what u come up with.
Mike
Select to expand quotejagoulet said..Did you measure that or just figure it from distances?
Except for jumping, the upward push of the front wing pushes the front of the adapter onto the board, and pulls the back up. The pull on the back should not be an issue, since the leverage is more favorable with the track moved forward. But the push on the front side of the adapter could possibly be an issue. It's not pushing down onto the tracks anymore, but rather directly onto the top layer of the board. If the reinforcements around the tracks extend far enough to the front, that should not be a problem, but if they don't extend to the front of the adapter, then the front edge might get pushed into the board. I've seen such things happen with the power plate adapter on windsurf boards, where the reinforcements around powerboxes tend to be minimal, after maybe 10 or 20 sessions.
Given the stiffness of the baseplate adapter, the force distribution is governed by the distance between the plate end and the holes. I think that riding is not the critical load case; I think that crashing into reef or sand is. This is the case where the front bolts are pulled.
Regarding the overlap with the rails, I think it is good enough in my setup but it is a good point to check!
to jagoulet: From what material your plugs for covering foil rails are made of? You used PU
Select to expand quotejagoulet said..Did you measure that or just figure it from distances?
Except for jumping, the upward push of the front wing pushes the front of the adapter onto the board, and pulls the back up. The pull on the back should not be an issue, since the leverage is more favorable with the track moved forward. But the push on the front side of the adapter could possibly be an issue. It's not pushing down onto the tracks anymore, but rather directly onto the top layer of the board. If the reinforcements around the tracks extend far enough to the front, that should not be a problem, but if they don't extend to the front of the adapter, then the front edge might get pushed into the board. I've seen such things happen with the power plate adapter on windsurf boards, where the reinforcements around powerboxes tend to be minimal, after maybe 10 or 20 sessions.
Given the stiffness of the baseplate adapter, the force distribution is governed by the distance between the plate end and the holes. I think that riding is not the critical load case; I think that crashing into reef or sand is. This is the case where the front bolts are pulled.
Regarding the overlap with the rails, I think it is good enough in my setup but it is a good point to check!
Have you noticed any performance change with the foil so close to the mast?.
Like less forgiving stall behavior, less glide overall or at high speed?.
There has to be some interference between mast/foil, ,i think that is the main reason foils are placed in front of the mast, in cleaner flow.
But that is the theory, you are actually trying it :).
Cool!.
Select to expand quotemcrt said..
Have you noticed any performance change with the foil so close to the mast?.
Like less forgiving stall behavior, less glide overall or at high speed?.
There has to be some interference between mast/foil, ,i think that is the main reason foils are placed in front of the mast, in cleaner flow.
But that is the theory, you are actually trying it :).
Cool!.
It has zero negative impact. The whole think is just more manoeuvrable and lighter :)
Select to expand quoteGencion said..jagoulet said..Did you measure that or just figure it from distances?
Except for jumping, the upward push of the front wing pushes the front of the adapter onto the board, and pulls the back up. The pull on the back should not be an issue, since the leverage is more favorable with the track moved forward. But the push on the front side of the adapter could possibly be an issue. It's not pushing down onto the tracks anymore, but rather directly onto the top layer of the board. If the reinforcements around the tracks extend far enough to the front, that should not be a problem, but if they don't extend to the front of the adapter, then the front edge might get pushed into the board. I've seen such things happen with the power plate adapter on windsurf boards, where the reinforcements around powerboxes tend to be minimal, after maybe 10 or 20 sessions.
Given the stiffness of the baseplate adapter, the force distribution is governed by the distance between the plate end and the holes. I think that riding is not the critical load case; I think that crashing into reef or sand is. This is the case where the front bolts are pulled.
Regarding the overlap with the rails, I think it is good enough in my setup but it is a good point to check!
to jagoulet: From what material your plugs for covering foil rails are made of? You used PU
In my case it needed to be able to take loads so this is a 5mm carbon plate.
