Hi all,
I'm struggling with the pitch trim of my foil and I'm not quite sure what's going on. I'm brand new to winging. I've recently been to Greece and spent about 7-8 hours foiling there on a 125L board and pretty big low aspect beginner foil with no problems.
Today I got foiling on my own gear for the first time - this is my first go since I actually got my own wind wing. I've got a JP Freefoil 130L with an Axis spitfire 1100 front wing, progressive 425 rear wing, and 899 fuse. I'm a windsurfer and got gear that I could use for windfoiling and winging, hence the board and relatively long fuse (by winging standards).
So my issue is that when I'm on foil, I feel like the pitch stability is on a hair trigger. I'm constantly either touching down or foiling out/stalling the foil (depending on my speed). I'm riding strapless but my feet are exactly where the footstraps would be for winging on this board, and I don't feel like moving them is the solution. When flying along I've got too much back foot pressure, but if I move my front foot back then the board is constantly pitching up, and if I move my back foot forward then I'm constantly touching down.
I now realise I have had the exact same issue when windfoiling too, but always assumed it was caused by the dynamic downforce from the sail into the mast foot. But now with the benefit of winging today and comparing it to my time in Greece, the board is just way less pitch stable, despite the longer fuse.
Does anyone have idea? Is it just a skill issue? Would shimming help?
Cheers!
Welcome to winging 
I would ask someone to try out your gear, probably easiest way to confirm if its setup right or not, or if its a skill issue.
Ok, ok, not much help I guess. Take a look at this vid too:
?si=Oo3qNO0tw_Er3C5b
Fastest way to solve issue, is to let a good foiler ride your gear and tune it for you.
It sounds like mast needs to move forward in the tracks. Moving it just 10mm forward can have a massive impact.
Bigger tails can help the learning process. They add stability in every way.
Select to expand quoteUisceBeatha said..
Ok, ok, not much help I guess. Take a look at this vid too: ?si=Oo3qNO0tw_Er3C5b
Could also be your body position and how you stand over the foil, using your hips and ankles to stabilize, this is a key difference from windsurfing and could be a skill factor
To me, that video provide a lot of false statements. Don't pay too much attention to the centerline...a lot of pro rider are not on the center line and a lot of great prone surfers have a narrow stand...as long as you are not at the extreme of the specs I guess.Your Pitch stability issue is because you hare on a much faster and smaller foil you learned on while on vacation. Everything is faster, you will adapt and no need to purchase extra fuse extra stab, you can go into that rabbit hole, but in my opinion, do it after you put a lof of time on water and you know why you want a bigger stab or a bigger fuse.Is the spitfire about 1400cm2 of surface?However if your fuselage is a windsurf fuselage, it might have a different position for your mast, usually windsurfing fuselage has the wing a lot more fwd vs a wing fuselage. In that case, make sure(by letting someone testing the rig as mentioned), that your mast track can use a windsurfing fuselage for winging maybe even full far back it might provide too much lift?
Try moving mast forward or shimming the tail for more lift- both will give more frontfoot pressure which will make it easier to control the pitch.
Select to expand quotePeterP said..
Try moving mast forward or shimming the tail for more lift- both will give more frontfoot pressure which will make it easier to control the pitch.
unless he got too much front foot pressure @peterP ? If the 899 is a windsurfing fuselage you cannot put that further in front vs a wing fuselage I believe. I might be wrong please let me know if I am!
You've got your work cut out for you. Your gear is really not ideal for winging, from the board (better for windfoiling, mast track far back) to the front wing (better for intermediate to advanced foilers) to the fuselage (a bit long). Even your windsurfing background can get in your way. I've watched a lot of windsurfers learning to wing, and a common problem is that windsurfers tend to wing backfoot heavy.
That said, none of the above means you cannot learn on your gear. You may just need a few more sessions. The first thing to fix is your stance. You have to realize that most wingers don't use the rear strap when winging in a straight line - their back foot is usually in front of the rear strap, and goes into the rear strap only when jumping (and sometimes wave rides, and pushing upwind hard).
If your feet are over both foot strap positions (front and back), this means that your stance is too wide. A wide stance gives you a lot of leverage over the foil to rapidly change the pitch. Great for jumping! But if you don't want to jump or go up and down all the time, move your feet closer together. Shoulder width is good, but even experiment with getting them as close together as possible. Based on your description, you'll probably have to move your back foot forward, and you front foot back.
If getting gear is an option, you can make your life easier by getting an HPS1050. A shorter fuse may also be a good idea, but only if you can move the mast more forward in the tracks, since the shorter fuses move the front wing towards the mast. That should be possible on the JP 130, though. Best to have an experienced foiler check if your setup is reasonable. Another thing you could consider is to get the biggest tail wing that Axis has, the 500 anhedral freeride. It has a lot more area than your current tail wing, which really slows things down a lot, giving you more time to react. I started to make progress on jibes once I switched to the 500 FR from a 400 tail wing, after someone suggested it. The take-off technique changes with the bigger wing (more picking up speed instead of whipping the board out), but that should be intuitive with you windsurfing background, and fits your board characteristics.
Life is too short to force yourself to learn on the wrong kit. Most of us don't have unlimited money but if there is any way you can get yourself a wingfoiling board at the very least I would recommend it. This sport is ridiculously gear nuanced and trying to have a single kit to do it all might be possible, but it will not benefit you short or long term.
I would add that foiling is a nuanced sport with many micro adjustments happening constantly. Your very long fuse may delay your corrective input to the water conditions meaning that the foil would continue in it's trajectory for longer than you wish.
A short (703) is the usual beginner /progression setup.
Also the spitfires aren't user friendly for beginners, as suggested an HPS or BSC would be a better option
It is interesting that I just asked question regarding my foil set up as a beginner but having the same problem. I have been windfoiling without any problems but my learning curve on the wingfoil has been very slow. I have a dedicated wingboard 140 lt ( my weight 95 kg) with large foil, 71 cm fuse and going on sufficient wind and wing but I am keep going up for few yards and touching down, dolphin like . Reading suggestions I will try to move even further my mast. Alan Cadiz has a video showing front foot is not on the center line unlike the video suggested earlier. I feel like after going downwind for foling up, I need to go upwind but not sure how to maintain wind power on my wing.
My 2 cents. If you're a beginner stay away from shimming. I would bolt on the front foot straps alone (with no rear straps) and ride with the back foot moving freely. After two sessions hopefully you're more dialed in.
Select to expand quoteSA_AL said..
It is interesting that I just asked question regarding my foil set up as a beginner but having the same problem. I have been windfoiling without any problems but my learning curve on the wingfoil has been very slow. I have a dedicated wingboard 140 lt ( my weight 95 kg) with large foil, 71 cm fuse and going on sufficient wind and wing but I am keep going up for few yards and touching down, dolphin like . Reading suggestions I will try to move even further my mast. Alan Cadiz has a video showing front foot is not on the center line unlike the video suggested earlier. I feel like after going downwind for foling up, I need to go upwind but not sure how to maintain wind power on my wing.
Could be that you are going too far downwind to get going. As you pick up speed when going downwind, the apparent wind drops, and the power in the wing disappears, causing you to drop down.
If there are any more experienced wingers where you are, have them try your setup. It is almost impossible to figure out how to set up equipment correctly as a beginner. A friend has been held back by badly setup equipment for years. In her case, the fact that she is a lot lighter than everyone else on the water made problems a lot worse. Largely based on advice from shops, she stayed on foils that were much too large for her for way too long. She always had to mount the foils all the way back in the tracks to have any chance of controlling them. But that results in a bucking beast that's almost impossible to control. She now finally is on a 1000 cm2 foil that's much more appropriate for her weight, and has started to move the foil forward to a more reasonable position. But she's still fighting with gear issues, after many dozens of sessions. For example, one of her boards is a downwind-style board that never seemed to give her any real benefit compared to a more classical (wide and fat) shape. When a local expert winger finally tried the DW board, she found it almost unusable because the mast track is short and too far back for the foil she was using. On another DW board with a longer track mounted more forward, the same expert was able to get going with a 4.2 m wing in conditions where she usually would have needed a 6.0. Just mentioning this as an example what insights an experienced foiler trying newbie gear might contribute.
Its all probably been said above but Ill add my 2c worth, I really dont think you can WindFoil and WingFoil with much joy on the same gear, but let someone else prove me wrong
Does you board have tracks or is it a fixed position
You may be able to have a session where you use a mast plate shim, probably 'nose up' will help but its worth trying the opposite too
so you can experience what effect this has, about 1 - 2 degrees should be ok if your bolts can take it
your board is Big, thats a lot of weight once you are up, if you are over 95kgs I understand but a smaller board may be a lot more fun
could you purchase the same or similar gear to that which you learned on as it is now a successful reference for you
If you are riding such a long fuselage you will get a delay causing you to over correct the pitch so you will constantly be chasing it a shorter fuselage will give you a more direct adjustment but only unstable at high speeds say25kts try and borrow a shorter one before you spend up
Thanks all for the tips & advice thus far!Select to expand quoteDWF said..
Fastest way to solve issue, is to let a good foiler ride your gear and tune it for you.
It sounds like mast needs to move forward in the tracks. Moving it just 10mm forward can have a massive impact.
Bigger tails can help the learning process. They add stability in every way.
Thanks, I did an hour or two of lessons before heading to Greece so I might give him a shout and see if we can do another session for him to try my gear. I didn't get foiling on those two occasions because the wind was really light, so I never got to experience foiling on his gear.
The mast is basically at the front of the tracks already. I mean it might be able to go a touch further but we'd be talking 2-3mm.
Maybe I misunderstand but I would have thought regardless of where the mast is I should be able to move my feet on the board to compensate? I mean within reason, obviously if the board is small you're limited in where you can stand, and you need to have the right trim on the board for takeoff, but in the air I wouldn't have thought it mattered as much? In any case I've got plenty of board both behind and in front of my feet. I'm pretty much standing as indicated below.
Select to expand quotewinddoc said..
Your fuse is way too long. Try the 700 if you can.
Thanks, might try giving one of these a go.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
You've got your work cut out for you. Your gear is really not ideal for winging, from the board (better for windfoiling, mast track far back) to the front wing (better for intermediate to advanced foilers) to the fuselage (a bit long). Even your windsurfing background can get in your way. I've watched a lot of windsurfers learning to wing, and a common problem is that windsurfers tend to wing backfoot heavy.
That said, none of the above means you cannot learn on your gear. You may just need a few more sessions. The first thing to fix is your stance. You have to realize that most wingers don't use the rear strap when winging in a straight line - their back foot is usually in front of the rear strap, and goes into the rear strap only when jumping (and sometimes wave rides, and pushing upwind hard).
If your feet are over both foot strap positions (front and back), this means that your stance is too wide. A wide stance gives you a lot of leverage over the foil to rapidly change the pitch. Great for jumping! But if you don't want to jump or go up and down all the time, move your feet closer together. Shoulder width is good, but even experiment with getting them as close together as possible. Based on your description, you'll probably have to move your back foot forward, and you front foot back.
If getting gear is an option, you can make your life easier by getting an HPS1050. A shorter fuse may also be a good idea, but only if you can move the mast more forward in the tracks, since the shorter fuses move the front wing towards the mast. That should be possible on the JP 130, though. Best to have an experienced foiler check if your setup is reasonable. Another thing you could consider is to get the biggest tail wing that Axis has, the 500 anhedral freeride. It has a lot more area than your current tail wing, which really slows things down a lot, giving you more time to react. I started to make progress on jibes once I switched to the 500 FR from a 400 tail wing, after someone suggested it. The take-off technique changes with the bigger wing (more picking up speed instead of whipping the board out), but that should be intuitive with you windsurfing background, and fits your board characteristics.
Thanks for the tips. I will try moving my rear foot slightly forward but it didn't really seem to make as much of a difference to the balance of the foil, whereas when I was in Greece I felt like I had great control over the foil and was experimenting with going shoulder width (or narrower) and also wider and had no issues with either (but preferred narrower). I've posted a pic of my foot placement on the board just above this post, and the foil wing is pretty much underneath the orange diamond on the deck.
I've actually got a HPS980 as well, I may as well give that a try next time I make it out. The wind isn't being very cooperative at the moment.
For all those suggesting different gear as this gear isn't ideal for winging, totally agree and getting a shorter fuse and a midlength board is on the radar for once I get a bit better and can complete gybes reliably. Thus far I have managed to make it around the gybe before falling off the foil and swapping my feet a handful of times, and once yesterday on my own gear fell off on the touchdown. So I'd prefer to stick with what I've got until I feel like I might be able to make a midlength board work.
Select to expand quotestroppo said..
If you are riding such a long fuselage you will get a delay causing you to over correct the pitch so you will constantly be chasing it a shorter fuselage will give you a more direct adjustment but only unstable at high speeds say25kts try and borrow a shorter one before you spend up
This is an interesting point, I expected the longer fuse to actually provide more stability but I definitely feel there's less stability pitchwise than the gear I used in Greece, and that was on a 70-ish cm fuse.
Select to expand quoteRAF142134 said..Its all probably been said above but Ill add my 2c worth, I really dont think you can WindFoil and WingFoil with much joy on the same gear, but let someone else prove me wrong
Does you board have tracks or is it a fixed position
You may be able to have a session where you use a mast plate shim, probably 'nose up' will help but its worth trying the opposite too
so you can experience what effect this has, about 1 - 2 degrees should be ok if your bolts can take it
your board is Big, thats a lot of weight once you are up, if you are over 95kgs I understand but a smaller board may be a lot more fun
could you purchase the same or similar gear to that which you learned on as it is now a successful reference for you
I have thought about trying both mastplate and rear wing shims and seeing what effect that has, but I reckon I'll go out for a session with an instructor I've done 2 hours with before and see what he thinks before I commit to spending money in unnecessary and potentially unhelpful (for a beginner) directions.
Getting some proper beginner equipment (I was on a RRD Beluga 175 (equipment.robertoriccidesigns.com/products/beluga-y26/) with whatever massive beginner foil they stuck on it) isn't out of the question I guess but I'd prefer to push through if possible and then get a board that will last me a bit longer.
Gull sounds like you have plenty of motivation, maybe you could even borrow some gear from someone else or even rental. I have watched a few guys at my local spot on sub par gear and they struggle for weeks and weeks and this is compounded by less than ideal wind conditions - good gear is worth it if you like this sport. I hope that you are getting more and more out of your sessions.
A bit inconsistent here - asking for help because of "hair trigger" pitch stability, while saying you got around in the jibe and managed to swap your feet a bunch of times. Most people need dozens of sessions to get to this point, some need hundreds.
You're on a wave front wing for advanced wingers that is loved because it reacts very well to input. That is very different from beginner foils, which are much more forgiving, and react very slowly. But you've paired the fast-reacting foil with very long fuse that slows down how fast the gear reacts to input. So you experience a lot more feedback from the foil, but the timing is off, as stroppo has explained quite nicely. You try to compensate by using a very wide stance, which creates more problems.
Get the shorter (70 cm) fuse. It may make the foil feel even less pitch stable, but you'll have a better chance of timing your adjustments correctly. Sounds like your front wing position is ok; with a shorter fuse, you'll have to move the mast more forward, by the same amount the front wing is further away on the longer mast.Select to expand quotedieseagull said..
I've posted a pic of my foot placement on the board just above this post, and the foil wing is pretty much underneath the orange diamond on the deck.
The foot placement that you indicated shows your stance is even wider than if you had both feet in the straps. That makes your life a lot harder since it gives you more leverage over the foil than a narrower stance. You're much more likely to over-correct with a wider stance, causing touchdowns and overfoiling. It's a natural thing to go for a wider stance for more stability, lots of beginners do this. The #1 tip from a very experienced wing instructor when beginners complain about the board being to twitchy when they start getting up on the foil is to put the feet closer together. Many jibe tutorial also suggest to move the feet closer together before the jibe to reduce the effect of weight shifts, and the resulting ups and downs.
I have that board and that's about where I stand. Maybe my front foot is a bit farther back, but since you are in early days you probably are still over reacting to every small oscillation. We all went through it. When I wing with that board I use a 78 cm fuse with the mast a few cms back from full forward. (When I wind foil I use a 90 cm fuse with the mast full back.) I agree with those who say get a shorter fuse.
While the board is extremely heavy for a wing board, I still like it sometimes because of its high moi. My feet placement in transitions doesn't have to be exact, I get a bit of time to shuffle. Once you can jibe it you should get a dedicated wing board.
Not all wind foil boards are made the same. Yours seems to have the tracks way back, which may not be ideal, depending on the foil. I am not familiar with any of your gear, and I can only suggest that both the front wing and the stabiliser are a bit too small for learning. Depending on your weight of course.
In the posts above I spotted a couple of misconceptions.
Don't be afraid to shim the stabiliser and to move the mast around if you do have the time to experiment. But in the beginning it's easier to let a skilled rider who is approximately your weight to do that for you. It's not a silver bullet, and not always needed, but with some gear combinations it's an essential thing to do and can turn an unusable setup to a perfectly tuned one.
Long fuselages (I mean the wind foiling fuselages, ca 90 cm long) can be super good and pitch stable for learning winging.
Wind foil boards can be super good for winging.
Here is a beginner wing foiler on his 4th day. Riding super well with a long wind foiling fuselage, and with a 120 litres wind foil board. See how stable and well tuned his gear is. If possible, I'd recommend to get some advice and lessons from an experienced rider, preferably from somebody who knows the gear that you have.
Select to expand quoteBullroarerTook said..
I have that board and that's about where I stand. Maybe my front foot is a bit farther back, but since you are in early days you probably are still over reacting to every small oscillation. We all went through it. When I wing with that board I use a 78 cm fuse with the mast a few cms back from full forward. (When I wind foil I use a 90 cm fuse with the mast full back.) I agree with those who say get a shorter fuse.
While the board is extremely heavy for a wing board, I still like it sometimes because of its high moi. My feet placement in transitions doesn't have to be exact, I get a bit of time to shuffle. Once you can jibe it you should get a dedicated wing board.
Thanks, getting a dedicated wing board once I can gybe is the plan. I'm trying to hunt down a 78 or 70cm fuse in my area. I'll try adjusting the foot position a bit next time I go out. I probably drew my front foot slightly further than I actually had it - I think once I was up and going my front toes were over the mast track but not by that much.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
A bit inconsistent here - asking for help because of "hair trigger" pitch stability, while saying you got around in the jibe and managed to swap your feet a bunch of times. Most people need dozens of sessions to get to this point, some need hundreds.
You're on a wave front wing for advanced wingers that is loved because it reacts very well to input. That is very different from beginner foils, which are much more forgiving, and react very slowly. But you've paired the fast-reacting foil with very long fuse that slows down how fast the gear reacts to input. So you experience a lot more feedback from the foil, but the timing is off, as stroppo has explained quite nicely. You try to compensate by using a very wide stance, which creates more problems.
Get the shorter (70 cm) fuse. It may make the foil feel even less pitch stable, but you'll have a better chance of timing your adjustments correctly. Sounds like your front wing position is ok; with a shorter fuse, you'll have to move the mast more forward, by the same amount the front wing is further away on the longer mast.dieseagull said..
I've posted a pic of my foot placement on the board just above this post, and the foil wing is pretty much underneath the orange diamond on the deck.
The foot placement that you indicated shows your stance is even wider than if you had both feet in the straps. That makes your life a lot harder since it gives you more leverage over the foil than a narrower stance. You're much more likely to over-correct with a wider stance, causing touchdowns and overfoiling. It's a natural thing to go for a wider stance for more stability, lots of beginners do this. The #1 tip from a very experienced wing instructor when beginners complain about the board being to twitchy when they start getting up on the foil is to put the feet closer together. Many jibe tutorial also suggest to move the feet closer together before the jibe to reduce the effect of weight shifts, and the resulting ups and downs.
Perhaps inconsistent but it's not like I'm trying to trick you lol. Will try to grab that 70 (or 78) cm fuse when I can find one. I also look forward to getting out there again and working on a narrower stance.
The mast is already at the front of the track so a shorter fuse will shift the front wing rearward, but I assume I can just assume my foot position rearward to compensate.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
Not all wind foil boards are made the same. Yours seems to have the tracks way back, which may not be ideal, depending on the foil. I am not familiar with any of your gear, and I can only suggest that both the front wing and the stabiliser are a bit too small for learning. Depending on your weight of course.
In the posts above I spotted a couple of misconceptions.
Don't be afraid to shim the stabiliser and to move the mast around if you do have the time to experiment. But in the beginning it's easier to let a skilled rider who is approximately your weight to do that for you. It's not a silver bullet, and not always needed, but with some gear combinations it's an essential thing to do and can turn an unusable setup to a perfectly tuned one.
Long fuselages (I mean the wind foiling fuselages, ca 90 cm long) can be super good and pitch stable for learning winging.
Wind foil boards can be super good for winging.
Here is a beginner wing foiler on his 4th day. Riding super well with a long wind foiling fuselage, and with a 120 litres wind foil board. See how stable and well tuned his gear is. If possible, I'd recommend to get some advice and lessons from an experienced rider, preferably from somebody who knows the gear that you have.
Thanks Taavi, yeah the tracks are a bit far back, I think its working at the moment with the mast all the way forward in the tracks and the really long fuse but once I get a shorter fuse my stance will need to come back. I was expecting my longer fuse at home to provide more pitch stability than the rental gear I used overseas with a 76cm fuse, and I've heard racers are using really long (over 1m) fuses on wingfoil boards (although they dont have the skill issue). But in any case I've already lined up a session with a guy who I've done some lessons with.
Your friend looks like they're having a ton of fun, and you're right that gear looks very predictable and stable.
Dieseagull, I have gone through similar problems that you face. I wouldn't change any gear JUST yet.
Don't shim. Don't buy any new gear. Experiment with your setup first as I'm sure there is something not quite right.
As a user of all the red Axis standard fuses and most of the blacks, I'd suggest the longer fuse will be MUCH more pitch stable than a short. If pitch sensativity is an issue, just wait before getting a shorter fuse....
The issue I've seen with the 880 fuses (windfoiling specific) is that they project the front foil a long way further forwards from the mast than the standard and shorter fuses. So the distance from the mast to the front of the foil is a few cm further forwards on a Windfoiling fuse, than the other fuses. What this means is you might need more front foot pressure to keep the nose down. If your board doesn't have a long foil box, you might find that the foil is placed too far forwards (even in it's rear most setting), meaning that your weight is a bit too far back with a standard stance. As a result, when you start to come up on foil, it might be coming up at a steep angle and this can cause these black fuse compatible foils to stall. So you might then have to stand further forwards on the board to get the balance right?
As a very experienced but low talented foiler, I'd agree with others, that the setup you are using is pretty advanced. I've been foiling for 6 years now and it's only been the last 2 years I've felt comfortable on the Spittys. For some super talented people, the spitfires are a 'learner' foil. For others like me, they are very much an advanced foil.
The p 425 tail is also a pretty advanced tail. If you were to get a freeride 440/400, this will act like an anchor for that spitfire. BUT it will give you a lot more stability and should settle it down. You might find that to be a good interim solution? Again, if you can borrow a mates and give it a run, that would be a good option.
I've found the spitfires need a lot of speed to get them up and going. The learner orientated foils you can pump with your back foot and they will respond by lifting the setup out of the water. Do that with a spitfire, and the thing will climb out of the water, but they often stall, and you plop back down. Is this an issue for you? If it is, then you might need to modify your technique to work the wing a lot more (pumping) and less pumping with the legs to get flying.
The other thing that can play havoc with your foiling is the currents and waves at your local spot. If there is a lot of chop and swell, you might find the interaction of these conditions with the foil is causing a lot of feedback. If you're running a shortish mast (75cm or less), you might find that trying to keep the foil in the water, means you're touching down a lot. Likewise if you try and fly the board over the top of the swell, maybe the foil then breaches? I've also found that currents going against the wind can really unsettle the foil.
I'd love to give your gear a run to try and help problem solve, but Tassie is along way from NSW. If you can get someone with a little more experience to give your gear a run, they might have a light bulb moment.
Hang in there.
