Howdy Wingers,
Would love a thread on swell/wave riding tips, techniques and tricks. We don't have lots of advanced wingers round these parts so I look to various videos on youtube (jd follow cam, etc) for inspiration. Wondering what other people do and if people have any good advice on riding the various stages of swell while wing flagged out, from downwind to breaking waves?
Thanks in advance 
I'd expect you'll get tons of feedback on this and everyone has a different style so it's all taken with a grain of salt.
I ride swell, never waves. However, I like to ride swell like I would ride a wave. In other words, most of my surfing is fairly well down the line with cutbacks when necessary but if I'm going left, I keep going left. I like surfing swell this way because it keeps the wing out of the way really nicely for me and most importantly, it makes me feel like I am actually surfing waves.
Tips I've learned:
1. Make sure you have good pitch control skills. Waves/swell are perfect opportunities to breach if you traditionally mow the lawn.
2. Learn to read the swell. Just as a surfer can tell when a wave is forming and when it is closing out, you'll get good at seeing the different water patterns that mean a piece of swell is about to stand up, or fall down.
3. Look ahead and behind. Your swell might be dying off but you can boost forward and catch the swell ahead of you or peel off the back and catch the swell behind you with little effort.
4. Make turns. If you just straightline the swell you'll have fun but you will almost surely outrun the swell and end up in the wrong spot. The turns allow you to stay in the swell and generate more speed, glide, lift. Plus, they are more fun.
5. Practice on small swell. Lots of people jump into bigger stuff too quick. You can learn an infinite amount about how to move and link swell when it's knee high and smaller. The skills you develop in the small translate into ripping experiences in the big.
Agree with everything BWalnut said, but the most important thing is finding the sweet spot of power in waves or swell. Hint: its much higher on the wave than you probably think and in soft waves it may be almost at the peak of the wave. Stay out of the trough which is going to be the weakest area of the wave and will kill your lift and momentum. Make small turns and pitch adjustments to stay in the powered area high on the wave. You will probably find you need to take a line that is closer to perpendicular with the swell direction, than it is parallel.
Once you learn to read swell, you can look for pockets of power where two swell lines are interacting and compounding, or where the waves is peaking, and you build speed, make make cutbacks or more aggressive maneuvers in those more powerful areas. Conversely you will learn to look for dead areas, where you need to build speed and carry momentum (or pump) to find the next pocket of power, which may be ahead, beside or behind you.
Its harder to find power in small waves, so this focus on finding the power pocket is more challenging than it is in bigger or punchier waves (but consequence is higher in those conditions). In those bigger conditions, the power pocket is going to be larger but you probably won't want to be right on top of the most powered area of the wave.
Don't really worry about the wing for now. Move in any direction where it isn't in your way (anything except downwind). You will figure out when to keep the wing low vs high, how to manage a cutback through the wing, dragging wingtips, pinning the wing behind you, etc... later.
I ride wind swell and proper waves and enjoy both. IMO they are very different, riding wind swell there is a lot less energy, so you have to concentrate on finding it, staying high and linking bumps. A HA foil is essential.
On proper surf, specially over head, there is energy to spare. You can bottom turn low on the face, and depending on how small your foil is, the closer to the pocket you can be. They feel very different, here you have power and speed, and you are not thinking about finding energy but in not getting caught by it.when you do very different consequences as well. For this conditions you can use a small HA foil, or a small MA depending on your style. Long mast and small fast foils are the go.
My # 1 tip is try and just turn rail to rail instead of pumping down the line to pick up speed.
Thanks lads, great advice. @BWalnut, I think with the conditions I ride most in (a large bay on the west coast of Ireland --> windy a lot) it would be similar to you and I have noted your gear progression with great interest.
Finding and staying with the energy is key - 100% agree.
Let me ask ye this, depending on either swell or wave, my most time riding seems to be backside (I'm natural), with wing flagged out behind me or beside me in my right hand. I normally ride upwind toe side into a swell line (after riding upwind and switching feet back), and throw a hard gybe down onto the swell energy moving my hand onto the front of the wing. This transition feels great but probably looks ****e 
After that, I try to surf backside as best that I can.
However, cutting back into the wing or changing direction to frontside riding the swell/wave, just feels so funky and the wing seems to stay in the way (usually a cab mantis). I'm trying to improve this aspect of my wave riding, getting more agressive figure 8's, right now it feels like a wiggle but I want it to be rail to rail (as @foilthegreats called out).
How do ye transition the wing? Note as I said, normally my conditions are onshore to side on.
[EDIT], just watched this and plenty of examples of it:
Good rundown @UisceBeatha on what you're doing! Very similar to my riding style with just a few differences.
I'm natural footed as well and when surfing a board I prefer frontside, as most do. Surfing the foil though, I've always been more aggressive backside (I assume because of the wing being in the way). So, when surfing left I do the same as you, flagged out behind or to my right, link swell, rip turns, imagine myself as a legend (doesn't matter what anyone else thinks!). If I'm going into a cutback or a gybe I throw the wing from my right, rear hand which is holding the leading edge handle into my left hand in a pistol grip position on the front handle and hold it overhead as I cutback or gybe underneath the wing. Does that make sense? At approximately 1:48 in your video when Ken is doing his cutbacks, I'd switch hands there, super quickly, you can see his left hand could easily reach up and grab the front handle in that maneuver.
I don't ride toeside much. I prefer to switch feet and then I surf pretty aggressively in goofy foot but without flagging out. I use the wing as an assist, kind of like a sup surfer would use a paddle to assist their turns (but the wing doesn't go in the water) and it gives me enough stability to throw tips out and rip around in goofy stance. It also gives me two different styles of riding. One that's pure foil when going left. One that's wing assist when going right. Keeps it fresh for me.
I also ride shorter masts, I like this because I find it forces me to stay in tune with the swell energy better and it gives me higher performance rail to rail turning!
Regarding wing management on cutbacks through the wind window - A few things to play with (Im also experimenting with a lot of this myself):
BWalnuts approach to holding the wing high and turning under it is the easiest way to do this, particularly if you are moving slower than the wind. I often use my other hand (not the one on the luff handle) to quickly push the leading edge out of my way before or during the turn, particularly if Im going to outrun the wing and blindfold myself.
Try holding the wing low and dragging the wingtip. Depending on how the wind and swell direction align, and if you are moving close to (or faster than) the wind you can sometimes get the wing to catch enough water to pivot behind you (need to hand off behind your back).
Try holding the wing low and pinning the leading edge against your hip or thigh. Between this contact point and the leading edge handle, you can also force the wing around (in front or behind you) more than if you are just holding the leading edge handle.
Keep the tips coming. Lots of good stuff in here.
Select to expand quoteBWalnut said..
Good rundown @UisceBeatha on what you're doing! Very similar to my riding style with just a few differences.
I'm natural footed as well and when surfing a board I prefer frontside, as most do. Surfing the foil though, I've always been more aggressive backside (I assume because of the wing being in the way). So, when surfing left I do the same as you, flagged out behind or to my right, link swell, rip turns, imagine myself as a legend (doesn't matter what anyone else thinks!). If I'm going into a cutback or a gybe I throw the wing from my right, rear hand which is holding the leading edge handle into my left hand in a pistol grip position on the front handle and hold it overhead as I cutback or gybe underneath the wing. Does that make sense? At approximately 1:48 in your video when Ken is doing his cutbacks, I'd switch hands there, super quickly, you can see his left hand could easily reach up and grab the front handle in that maneuver.
I don't ride toeside much. I prefer to switch feet and then I surf pretty aggressively in goofy foot but without flagging out. I use the wing as an assist, kind of like a sup surfer would use a paddle to assist their turns (but the wing doesn't go in the water) and it gives me enough stability to throw tips out and rip around in goofy stance. It also gives me two different styles of riding. One that's pure foil when going left. One that's wing assist when going right. Keeps it fresh for me.
I also ride shorter masts, I like this because I find it forces me to stay in tune with the swell energy better and it gives me higher performance rail to rail turning!
Awesome, great advice - will defo try the hand switch and bringing the wing overhead. Your idea of surfing in a goofy stance is well beyond me, I suck at riding upwind goofy, let alone wave riding I do dig frontside riding though and wanna do more of that, its just conditions don't favor it.
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
Regarding wing management on cutbacks through the wind window - A few things to play with (Im also experimenting with a lot of this myself):
BWalnuts approach to holding the wing high and turning under it is the easiest way to do this, particularly if you are moving slower than the wind. I often use my other hand (not the one on the luff handle) to quickly push the leading edge out of my way before or during the turn, particularly if Im going to outrun the wing and blindfold myself.
Try holding the wing low and dragging the wingtip. Depending on how the wind and swell direction align, and if you are moving close to (or faster than) the wind you can sometimes get the wing to catch enough water to pivot behind you (need to hand off behind your back).
Try holding the wing low and pinning the leading edge against your hip or thigh. Between this contact point and the leading edge handle, you can also force the wing around (in front or behind you) more than if you are just holding the leading edge handle.
Keep the tips coming. Lots of good stuff in here.
Thanks - yeah thats the other secret sauce, the wingtip drag to change hands behind your back. I'd love to crack that one.
Shaping up to be an epic weekend of riding here, gonna be trying some of these tips.
Great question and great responses and tips! Can't wait until I have another day to implement.
I ride lake swell that periodically forms dense stacks of fast rollers, along certain > 1 mile fetches, or "wind corridors". I have trouble keeping-up when just pumping my foil setup HAv1 925cm2 & 232cm2 stab. Most often, I resort to using my wing one-handed or two-handed overhead to supply extra pulses.
The most fun runs involve carving large S-turns down the front, and back, faces of these rollers. It feels like snowboarding moguls. But, I find with my current wing and the speed and closeness of the lake swell, but so far, I can't fully drop my wing and need to pull back up to speed every 2-3 turns.
Does anyone have a similar experience on fast moving lake swell? Do I need a faster foil? Probably a smaller tail, for sure.
Thx
Select to expand quoteBoardMaverick said..
Great question and great responses and tips! Can't wait until I have another day to implement.
I ride lake swell that periodically forms dense stacks of fast rollers, along certain > 1 mile fetches, or "wind corridors". I have trouble keeping-up when just pumping my foil setup HAv1 925cm2 & 232cm2 stab. Most often, I resort to using my wing one-handed or two-handed overhead to supply extra pulses.
The most fun runs involve carving large S-turns down the front, and back, faces of these rollers. It feels like snowboarding moguls. But, I find with my current wing and the speed and closeness of the lake swell, but so far, I can't fully drop my wing and need to pull back up to speed every 2-3 turns.
Does anyone have a similar experience on fast moving lake swell? Do I need a faster foil? Probably a smaller tail, for sure.
Thx
An excellent stab can be just as important as the front wing IMO. I ride the Cloud IX fs900 with Catalyst stab now and it was a shocking upgrade from their 700/850 foils with their traditional stab. For connecting bumps and consistently making tons of turns I've found that I really like a FAST foil with good glide. Mine is a 10.1 aspect ratio and is 11mm thick with a monoblock tail so it's a speedster. I used to play a game where I could see if I could link swell from Oregon to Washington. With my faster foil it's game over, pretty easy to do now!
i think the wing management during the surf is a big thing!
i often surf toeside (goofy footer) on my local spot wich is a nice righthand reef wave. The wind is usually side/side on. When you go straight or left there is no problem but when you throw a bottom then a top turn the wing always comes just in front of your face so you have to do a blind top turn wich is not really comfortable especially on steep section. I hold my wing with my front hand. I have tried to hold it with my rear hand behind my back but i am always pushed by my wing.
I have a long and narrow board so i mostly use my 2.5m2 wing wich is way more manageable than my 4m2 but it is still not perfect.
I have watched KD he seems to have the best wing "management"
Select to expand quoteClemop said..
?si=orqlPiqRPX1N7hhV
we can see at 5.05 wesley brito is switching hand just before the top turn. I will try this!
Very euro more lifestyle shots than actual riding
This guy has got it nailed.
When watching these videos, remember that even in instances with onshore wind (many of the videos are cross or offshore) these guys are on very fast and powerful waves and the wind is often pretty light. As such, the apparent wind is offshore, which makes handling the wing a lot simpler. Thats why you often see them passing behind the back (which is a lot easier when apparent wind is offshore). When apparent wind is nothing, or onshore, or in downwind-like conditions it can be more challenging. Thats when you need to rely on dragging the wing (which gives apparent offshore pull to the wing), or passing in front of your body.
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
When watching these videos, remember that even in instances with onshore wind (many of the videos are cross or offshore) these guys are on very fast and powerful waves and the wind is often pretty light. As such, the apparent wind is offshore, which makes handling the wing a lot simpler. Thats why you often see them passing behind the back (which is a lot easier when apparent wind is offshore). When apparent wind is nothing, or onshore, or in downwind-like conditions it can be more challenging. Thats when you need to rely on dragging the wing (which gives apparent offshore pull to the wing), or passing in front of your body.
That's right, in real surf the power of the wave and speed are enough that you can forget about the wing.
DW, it's just bumps, so you are hunting for energy linking bumps.you can call it surfing but it's a very different sport.both super fun! I think DW gets more fun the stronger it gets, where in waves you want a small wing but lighter wind.
Select to expand quoteVelocicraptor said..
When watching these videos, remember that even in instances with onshore wind (many of the videos are cross or offshore) these guys are on very fast and powerful waves and the wind is often pretty light. As such, the apparent wind is offshore, which makes handling the wing a lot simpler. Thats why you often see them passing behind the back (which is a lot easier when apparent wind is offshore). When apparent wind is nothing, or onshore, or in downwind-like conditions it can be more challenging. Thats when you need to rely on dragging the wing (which gives apparent offshore pull to the wing), or passing in front of your body.
i will try this but it seems a bit difficult!
and yes the video i post is almost useless but it is the only one i have found where we can see toeside surf with the wind pointing the same direction of the wave
Select to expand quoteClemop said..Velocicraptor said..
When watching these videos, remember that even in instances with onshore wind (many of the videos are cross or offshore) these guys are on very fast and powerful waves and the wind is often pretty light. As such, the apparent wind is offshore, which makes handling the wing a lot simpler. Thats why you often see them passing behind the back (which is a lot easier when apparent wind is offshore). When apparent wind is nothing, or onshore, or in downwind-like conditions it can be more challenging. Thats when you need to rely on dragging the wing (which gives apparent offshore pull to the wing), or passing in front of your body.
i will try this but it seems a bit difficult!
and yes the video i post is almost useless but it is the only one i have found where we can see toeside surf with the wind pointing the same direction of the wave
@clemop, if you have conditions where the wind is cross-off and you have groomed waves then 100% your posts are applicable and I would be reviewing that technique. I would love to experience that but even after 4 years of winging I havent gotten out into conditions like that. I have them here but need to drive at least an hour (which isn't that big of a deal) however, I used to do that to surf all the time and now I just wing on the bay out front. As a result it tends to be more downwind or onshore conditions which requires wing management. Keep the questions and tips coming though if it suits your style and conditions of riding - its all learning.
Select to expand quoteClemop said..
i think the wing management during the surf is a big thing!
i often surf toeside (goofy footer) on my local spot wich is a nice righthand reef wave. The wind is usually side/side on. When you go straight or left there is no problem but when you throw a bottom then a top turn the wing always comes just in front of your face so you have to do a blind top turn wich is not really comfortable especially on steep section. I hold my wing with my front hand. I have tried to hold it with my rear hand behind my back but i am always pushed by my wing.
I have a long and narrow board so i mostly use my 2.5m2 wing wich is way more manageable than my 4m2 but it is still not perfect.
I have watched KD he seems to have the best wing "management"
I00% Kane has unreal technique with the wing. Ken Adgate another, incredible. Sounds like you are going pretty well on your current spot, I think if you are surfing with a wing it will never feel perfect but you can definitely use it to benefit the riding.
Select to expand quoteBoardMaverick said..
Great question and great responses and tips! Can't wait until I have another day to implement.
I ride lake swell that periodically forms dense stacks of fast rollers, along certain > 1 mile fetches, or "wind corridors". I have trouble keeping-up when just pumping my foil setup HAv1 925cm2 & 232cm2 stab. Most often, I resort to using my wing one-handed or two-handed overhead to supply extra pulses.
The most fun runs involve carving large S-turns down the front, and back, faces of these rollers. It feels like snowboarding moguls. But, I find with my current wing and the speed and closeness of the lake swell, but so far, I can't fully drop my wing and need to pull back up to speed every 2-3 turns.
Does anyone have a similar experience on fast moving lake swell? Do I need a faster foil? Probably a smaller tail, for sure.
Thx
I haven't tried lake swell - other than in Lake Garda and it was pretty small there. However even in the bay I ride in here, with a mix of ocean swell and wind swell, the bumps build and drop away. I will either be maxed out hanging on for dear life (as I was last weekend) or carving back and forth on the bumps but one bump will rarely last more than a couple of 100m's. This sounds like what you are experiencing. I tend to ride and then look behind for another forming bump and then pump across to that.
I think a good skill to practice is just avoid the temptation to repower the wing, just pump earlier and look for more wave energy either side of you. Trying this really extended the duration of my flagged out riding.
A great tip I heard on the progression project a good while ago (Matt Costa I think) is to look for where the water is falling (or dropping) - that signals a soon to be building bump. So I ride off the top of one or out the side, pumping the foil and rather than looking for a lump I look at dropping water and pump to that. Then once you get there the bump is created and the water drops out under you. Aside from carving this is an awesome sensation.
Try the above before switching up your gear :-)
this is my homespot on a big day
Select to expand quoteClemop said..
this is my homespot on a big day
?si=TZjvy7I7X8mNIVwe
i never go out when it is like this i prefer when it is small like waist to head high.
We surf the right with the wing and both left and right on a regular surfboards. It is a reef break wich works only at high tide.
Perfect wingding wave 
Here's some really nice examples off wing control in sideshore conditions.
Perfect control down-the-line with the wing floating on the water behind the rider.
These (very experienced) swedish guys are winging in west Denmark (Hanstholm) - conditions are most likely as good as it gets so it's probably what 99% of people outside Maui will see/have a chance to ride ;-)
3.5 & 4.5 wings , approx. 30 knots
appreciate this discussion, even though its at least a few steps ahead of where I'm at...which is just learning to foil on any type of wave (lake chop and wakes are the most readily available here). The times I've tried (with a very lifty Leviathan 1150 for my 64kg), I've breached or just been tossed around and bucked off...
I have surfed just a bit, so I do get the idea and the general feel of catching a wave and riding down the line, but am clearly struggling to translate that to foiling...
This is part of the broader current challenge of handling the dynamics of foiling through small waves (mostly in terms of pitch stability AFAICT) and dealing with the changes in lift
Select to expand quoteSpokeyDoke said..
appreciate this discussion, even though its at least a few steps ahead of where I'm at...which is just learning to foil on any type of wave (lake chop and wakes are the most readily available here). The times I've tried (with a very lifty Leviathan 1150 for my 64kg), I've breached or just been tossed around and bucked off...
I have surfed just a bit, so I do get the idea and the general feel of catching a wave and riding down the line, but am clearly struggling to translate that to foiling...
This is part of the broader current challenge of handling the dynamics of foiling through small waves (mostly in terms of pitch stability AFAICT) and dealing with the changes in lift
Nice one, stick with it and it will get easier. You wanna start searching for energy in the water and you won't feel that unless you depower the wing fully. Start on flat water, flag out at cruising speed and see how long it takes before you stall out and drop. Then do the same on the smaller bumps and see what changes. Feel for that extra pressure on the foil, you won't get any in flat water but in the bumps its there. Keep experimenting and the knowledge on where the energy is will come.
