183 cm, 78kg older winger here riding a 78 liter 4'11' board and SLS Slicks. Always strapless (bad knee), mostly flat water, and OK-ish skills. Winging for 3 years now and realizing how great my light wind foil (Gong Veloce XXL, 1900 sq cm, 107cm span, AR 6.3, Volume 1.7 liter) has been for learning flat water skills with modest wind speeds (~9-15 kts). It's very thin (low volume) for its large surface area, so it has decent upper end speed, great glide, super low stall speed, AND reasonable carving ability. It also allows me to keep my "lighter wind" hand wing size limited to 6m.
Not a Gong Groupie at all (owned/tested other brands including the HA's), just hoping the manufacturers keep improving THIN, light wind mid aspect foil shapes similar to this, and don't get too caught up in the HA craze or thinking that large area mid aspect foils are only good for really heavy riders or complete beginners learning basic jibes. I think they're great for the average Joe/Jane learning more challenging flat water skills!
Last months I am thinking about HA vs MA thin foils.
I use Gong Fluid XXLT and XLS and I thought about going to Fluid MT/LT or going to Fluid MH/LH for better speed and/or glide. I used only one non-Gong foil so I can't compare much but compared to the Gong Curve (which I liked) I do love both Fluids more. I was suprised that the big Fluid T can go almost as fast as XLS and I can use it when wind picks up.
I am 180cm/72 kg.
@Dspace: How does that Fluid LT compares to Veloce T? Do you I should search for smaller Fluid T line or maybe H line if I continue with Gong foils?
I have a Veloce XL as my big foil.
Something I notice is it never feels overpowered like others I've tried. Yes it hits a maximum speed around 17kts but it stays comfortable in +30kts of wind. Especially with the new HA stabs which are absolutely brilliant.
I do have one of the Veloce H-L wings and it's far more challenging. I feel like the HA might suit for light wind in a large size but doesn't seem to work as well when I'm wanting a smaller for for hectic conditions.
We have very short period wind swell which is fairly chaotic on a big day. I think with longer period swell the HA would be brilliant.
I'm currently debating what to go for a light wind foil. The Veloce XXL and Fluid XXL-H both have my eye.
Select to expand quotekvek said..
Last months I am thinking about HA vs MA thin foils.
I use Gong Fluid XXLT and XLS and I thought about going to Fluid MT/LT or going to Fluid MH/LH for better speed and/or glide. I used only one non-Gong foil so I can't compare much but compared to the Gong Curve (which I liked) I do love both Fluids more. I was suprised that the big Fluid T can go almost as fast as XLS and I can use it when wind picks up.
I am 180cm/72 kg.
@Dspace: How does that Fluid LT compares to Veloce T? Do you I should search for smaller Fluid T line or maybe H line if I continue with Gong foils?
This is just my feeble perspective not knowing a bunch of details. If it were me I'd keep the Fluid XXL-T as a light wind foil (just like my Veloce XXL) and I'd add a Veloce LT or Fliuid LT. I would not jump right to a smaller MT size or an HA foil right away. Fluid T a bit more turny than Veloce T. Veloce T a bit more glidey than Fluid T. Any of these mid-aspect THIN foils are not as glidey as the true HA foils but they can come surprisingly close imho. I think they help you improve your transition skills a bit faster, especially upwind transitions. After that go for an HA foil if it fits your specific riding goals. If all you want to do is jibe, or you're a fast learner (unlike me
), ignore everything I said!
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
I have a Veloce XL as my big foil.
Something I notice is it never feels overpowered like others I've tried. Yes it hits a maximum speed around 17kts but it stays comfortable in +30kts of wind. Especially with the new HA stabs which are absolutely brilliant.
I do have one of the Veloce H-L wings and it's far more challenging. I feel like the HA might suit for light wind in a large size but doesn't seem to work as well when I'm wanting a smaller for for hectic conditions.
We have very short period wind swell which is fairly chaotic on a big day. I think with longer period swell the HA would be brilliant.
I'm currently debating what to go for a light wind foil. The Veloce XXL and Fluid XXL-H both have my eye.
I owned a Fluid HL and have had a few sessions on a borrowed ART999. For efficient downwinding they were both awesome even in our messy short period steep chop conditions (Fluid LH a bit more agile than the ART999), but my mid aspect Veloce LT wasn't that far behind and so much easier to turn aggressively (jibe or tack) in the choppy mess compared to either of the HA foils. That Fluid XXL-H has a 122cm span. Not far from the Axis PNG 1300 at 130cm. That's way above my pay grade for coaxing into an aggressive turn with a hand wing... but I bet they pump and glide like nothing else, almost like the hand wing would be a distraction!
Select to expand quoteDspace said..Grantmac said..
I have a Veloce XL as my big foil.
Something I notice is it never feels overpowered like others I've tried. Yes it hits a maximum speed around 17kts but it stays comfortable in +30kts of wind. Especially with the new HA stabs which are absolutely brilliant.
I do have one of the Veloce H-L wings and it's far more challenging. I feel like the HA might suit for light wind in a large size but doesn't seem to work as well when I'm wanting a smaller for for hectic conditions.
We have very short period wind swell which is fairly chaotic on a big day. I think with longer period swell the HA would be brilliant.
I'm currently debating what to go for a light wind foil. The Veloce XXL and Fluid XXL-H both have my eye.
I owned a Fluid HL and have had a few sessions on a borrowed ART999. For efficient downwinding they were both awesome even in our messy short period steep chop conditions (Fluid LH a bit more agile than the ART999), but my mid aspect Veloce LT wasn't that far behind and so much easier to turn aggressively (jibe or tack) in the choppy mess compared to either of the HA foils. That Fluid XXL-H has a 122cm span. Not far from the Axis PNG 1300 at 130cm. That's way above my pay grade for coaxing into an aggressive turn with a hand wing... but I bet they pump and glide like nothing else, almost like the hand wing would be a distraction!
The Veloce H-L is absolutely magic upwind and not that hard to get going if the swell and wind are aligned. We get quite a bit of misalignment and that's when it gets tough to take off since I'm into the next bit of chop before I'm at speed.
So I'm wondering if a Fluid T would have been better for high wind.
On a very low wind day I'm willing to give up carve for bottom end and glide. From what I've heard the Fluid H still has a lot of rail to rail even in the wide sizes.
A guy could go broke trying everything so I'm hoping to have some hit the used market.
The Mid Aspect-ish Go Foils RS series seem to be more popular than some of their earlier higher aspect wings. They certainly seem to have a solid place in the mix at the very least.
The MA Gong stuff is perfect for me, Veloce, Fluid T's and S's are real good for me, but my skill level is too low to give my opinion any real value in that area.
The only High Aspect wing from Gong I'll be buying soon, will likely to be the Pump and Glide (dock starting, wake thieving, glide machine ) that is suppose to be in the works. I assume it would kind like the Axis 1310 style but with some of that Patrice secret sauce in the mix.
I've ridden quite a few 10:1 gliders which definitely have their place in the quiver but 7-8:1 is my pick for a good compromise between bottom end, glide and turn.
I've ridden quite a few 10:1 gliders which definitely have their place in the quiver but 7-8:1 is my pick for a good compromise between bottom end, glide and turn.
Select to expand quoteDspace said..kvek said..
Last months I am thinking about HA vs MA thin foils.
I use Gong Fluid XXLT and XLS and I thought about going to Fluid MT/LT or going to Fluid MH/LH for better speed and/or glide. I used only one non-Gong foil so I can't compare much but compared to the Gong Curve (which I liked) I do love both Fluids more. I was suprised that the big Fluid T can go almost as fast as XLS and I can use it when wind picks up.
I am 180cm/72 kg.
@Dspace: How does that Fluid LT compares to Veloce T? Do you I should search for smaller Fluid T line or maybe H line if I continue with Gong foils?
This is just my feeble perspective not knowing a bunch of details. If it were me I'd keep the Fluid XXL-T as a light wind foil (just like my Veloce XXL) and I'd add a Veloce LT or Fliuid LT. I would not jump right to a smaller MT size or an HA foil right away. Fluid T a bit more turny than Veloce T. Veloce T a bit more glidey than Fluid T. Any of these mid-aspect THIN foils are not as glidey as the true HA foils but they can come surprisingly close imho. I think they help you improve your transition skills a bit faster, especially upwind transitions. After that go for an HA foil if it fits your specific riding goals. If all you want to do is jibe, or you're a fast learner (unlike me), ignore everything I said!
Thanks a lot for your insights :)
I love the turny/unstable feeling of my Fluids, that is why I was thinking about something similar. It would be nice to have more glide but on the other hand, I love the way my Fluids turn.
I am a bit more on a "fast learner" side but my upwind transitions are still a work in progress. When conditions are nice, I can do most of my tacks (both sides, both toeside/heelside) but in not-so-perfect conditions, it gets much worse.
I will probably go with the smaller T line, M or L but I guess the first step will be to replace my monoblock mast so I can buy a pro tail - that will need to wait for some time since it is a bigger investment.
Select to expand quoteRelapse said..
I've ridden quite a few 10:1 gliders which definitely have their place in the quiver but 7-8:1 is my pick for a good compromise between bottom end, glide and turn.
Same here. Only thing I'd add is foil thickness (often specified indirectly as volume). I have never liked thick foils, even from the early learning days. In fact I basically hate them, regardless of AR or surface area. Partly why I started the thread. To me the thinner, the better, as long as you keep sufficient stiffness and structural integrity/durability. I guess you could say a Mikes Lab rig would the extreme case of that..
I still remember friends learning on an Axis 1020 or 920 back in 2019. It was like dragging around a friggin sea anchor
.
Select to expand quotekvek said..
Dspace said..kvek said..
Last months I am thinking about HA vs MA thin foils.
I use Gong Fluid XXLT and XLS and I thought about going to Fluid MT/LT or going to Fluid MH/LH for better speed and/or glide. I used only one non-Gong foil so I can't compare much but compared to the Gong Curve (which I liked) I do love both Fluids more. I was suprised that the big Fluid T can go almost as fast as XLS and I can use it when wind picks up.
I am 180cm/72 kg.
@Dspace: How does that Fluid LT compares to Veloce T? Do you I should search for smaller Fluid T line or maybe H line if I continue with Gong foils?
This is just my feeble perspective not knowing a bunch of details. If it were me I'd keep the Fluid XXL-T as a light wind foil (just like my Veloce XXL) and I'd add a Veloce LT or Fliuid LT. I would not jump right to a smaller MT size or an HA foil right away. Fluid T a bit more turny than Veloce T. Veloce T a bit more glidey than Fluid T. Any of these mid-aspect THIN foils are not as glidey as the true HA foils but they can come surprisingly close imho. I think they help you improve your transition skills a bit faster, especially upwind transitions. After that go for an HA foil if it fits your specific riding goals. If all you want to do is jibe, or you're a fast learner (unlike me), ignore everything I said!
Thanks a lot for your insights :)
I love the turny/unstable feeling of my Fluids, that is why I was thinking about something similar. It would be nice to have more glide but on the other hand, I love the way my Fluids turn.
I am a bit more on a "fast learner" side but my upwind transitions are still a work in progress. When conditions are nice, I can do most of my tacks (both sides, both toeside/heelside) but in not-so-perfect conditions, it gets much worse.
I will probably go with the smaller T line, M or L but I guess the first step will be to replace my monoblock mast so I can buy a pro tail - that will need to wait for some time since it is a bigger investment.
Sounds like a good plan. The V2 carbon mast and pro tails are awesome and convinced me to stay with Gong. The new HM masts are also enticing.
Don't want to sound like a Gong fan boy here. Much of the SAB/Axis/Lift/Cabrihna/GoFoil gear I've gotten the chance to ride over the last several years has been great. Lots of high quality options out there now for every skill level, and I'm hopeful that performance oriented mid-aspect foils will be a big part of that. Perhaps too many options! (I almost splurged on a Mikes Lab rig, but chickened out. Quite the contrast to Gongs price point)
I'm hoping some of the new shapes designed for tip breaching get moved into new MA foils from Gong. The difference between the Veloce H-L and XL is very noticable. Although I can't reliably breach either one I've definitely recovered easier on the H-L, although a whole wing breach or a stall is more intense.
I've found the new H tail needs the whole foil further forward. To the point where I might need to drill my aluminum base plate to get it more forward.
Great post, I think my experiences are similar to yours, albeit somewhat different, a guy at my beach has a set up like you but with a wide thin starboard foil and he glides smoothly round his jibes and gets up quick in light winds with a 6.0, I have been on the old GF M200 which does a similar job, I think I can even maybe get a higher top speed, but being a thick foil as you found out it severely lacks glide, hence I suppose the move toward the GT1700 shape and form, I still haven't got me a glidey foil but I sure am looking forward to it
Thanks alot for your feedback and experience (I ride a Gong board)
