Would like to get some discussion of both:
1) what to do as a rider to maximize upwind ability, and
2) how your gear affects it (in general, and particular examples of wings/foils/masts that are better/worse and why)
Thanks...
For me, the wing and front foil were the two most important factors when trying to improve my upwind angles.
- For the wing, I like a flatter canopy and if possible, a smaller leading edge. I ride Duotone Units as they have a nice, taught canopy (not the smallest leading edge though).
- For the foil, my upwind angles got dramatically better when I moved to a more efficient foil (ART799 & ART999).
I'm sure stabilizer, mast, board and fuselage all have impacts but the wing and the front foil will probably get you the most bang for your buck.
Taller masts improve ability to lean to windward.
Narrower boards improve ability to lean to windward.
More lean, better upwind.
Select to expand quotegneve said..
For me, the wing and front foil were the two most important factors when trying to improve my upwind angles.
- For the wing, I like a flatter canopy and if possible, a smaller leading edge. I ride Duotone Units as they have a nice, taught canopy (not the smallest leading edge though).
- For the foil, my upwind angles got dramatically better when I moved to a more efficient foil (ART799 & ART999).
I'm sure stabilizer, mast, board and fuselage all have impacts but the wing and the front foil will probably get you the most bang for your buck.
I wish upwind ability was discussed in more detail in comparisons of wings...often mentioned, but doesn't seem to get much beyond ("goes upwind well")...but that is more than what is typically said about foils. I'll be shifting to smaller, more HA foils this next season and will be interested in the effect on pointing.
Would be good to get a list of wings ranked by upwind ability (aside from the new double surface ozone stuff)...
Ride with a harness. It allows you to point higher into the wind and rest your arms. A good fast high aspect Foil will also help.
I'll add something from windsurfing that Ive found also applies to winging: turn your torso more open toward direction your trying to head upwind. This works well when your aim is to point as high as possible.
Look where you want to go, sheet in the wing as much as possible. Apart from the technique a high aspect foil makes the most difference in my opinion. You can have mediocre technique but still go upwind with a high aspect foil. I'd say noticeable differences start from a aspect ratio of about 7.
I more or less stumbled into my upwind performance gains without noticing myself. One day someone just pulled me aside and asked what I changed because my upwind performance had become so extreme. I really hadn't noticed it and think it was a pretty gradual shift. However, here's what I can pin down as a few notable details:
1. I upgraded my foils from the Kujira line to the Cloud IX FS line. Aspect ratio went from 7 on the 1210 and probably lower on the 1500 up to 8.5 on nearly every foil.
2. I switched to a longer narrow board. I feel these boards catch wind less than the short fat boards on upwind reaches. It also allows the use of smaller wings and foils.
3. Using smaller foils with the smallest available stabs created a far lower drag system that pointed upwind better.
4. My wings shifted from duotone to Cloud IX for my daily drivers. In extreme winds I have Ocean Rodeo Glide A's and Strike v3s. The Ocean Rodeo's are the first wing that I actually noticed a significant upwind change. It's a bit of a hard comparison in the sense that I ride Cloud IX in light wind and Ocean Rodeo in extreme winds. However, I strive to always be UNDER powered on the water in comparison to the average rider and consistently am on a wing 1-2m smaller. I personally believe this is a huge element of going upwind better since I'm capturing all the wind available instead of getting knocked around by it when I'm overpowered.
5. I finally broke down and bought a harness. I can't hold onto my wing for very long in the winter when gloves are required. As such, I had to start hooking in and it absolutely impacted my body positioning and upwind angles.
I think a few of my friends have grown a bit annoyed with my upwind angles now, haha. I see downwinders as relatively pointless and am able to get huge upwind reaches on single tacks with my current kit:
90kg rider.
20-40 knot wind ranges.
Kalama e3 5'3"x22" 83l
Cloud IX fs700 or 850 with 157 stab and 76cm mast.
Ocean Rodeo Glide A 3m for 20-30 knots and 2.5m for 30-40 knots.
Upwind performance can be optimised by the following in order of importance*:
- AR 8+ foil
- foil area big enough to drive hard
- longer mast (100cm+ for better windward cant)
-harness (if you aren't overpowered on a reach your wing isn't big enough)
- harness with lines far enough back to maintain sheeting
- flatter wing profile
- small leading edge
*Based on my racing experience
Select to expand quoter0d said..
Upwind performance can be optimised by the following in order of importance*:
- AR 8+ foil
- foil area big enough to drive hard
- longer mast (100cm+ for better windward cant)
-harness (if you aren't overpowered on a reach your wing isn't big enough)
- harness with lines far enough back to maintain sheeting
- flatter wing profile
- small leading edge
*Based on my racing experience
Most important is technique-
you need to drive the foil upwind while holding lot of power in wing.
coming from kitefoil racing I can go upwind way faster and higher on a lower aspect foil than others on a high aspect as long as im powered by really driving the foil. of course I go faster and higher on a small high aspect but technique is key. Just by getting a higher ar foil, yes you will go upwind better but technique is more important ??
Select to expand quoteleepasty said..r0d said..
Upwind performance can be optimised by the following in order of importance*:
- AR 8+ foil
- foil area big enough to drive hard
- longer mast (100cm+ for better windward cant)
-harness (if you aren't overpowered on a reach your wing isn't big enough)
- harness with lines far enough back to maintain sheeting
- flatter wing profile
- small leading edge
*Based on my racing experience
Most important is technique-
you need to drive the foil upwind while holding lot of power in wing.
coming from kitefoil racing I can go upwind way faster and higher on a lower aspect foil than others on a high aspect as long as im powered by really driving the foil. of course I go faster and higher on a small high aspect but technique is key. Just by getting a higher ar foil, yes you will go upwind better but technique is more important ??
Coming from long term short board/ slalom windsurfing and learning how to sail upwind efficiently I totally agree with the above.
Technique is the single most important factor and equipment will add or subtract a little to that.
The mast in foiling, apart from anything else, is like a windsurfing dagger board found on longer boards that were easier to point upwind and the ability to point upwind on foil is easier than that in my opinion, especially compared to short board windsurfing.
I think this was already said above, but, twist your upper half body and look high upwind, sheet in hard with wing in vertical position and drive the foil...if you are not doing it already it will take practise to get the right feel and balance for an efficient technique. I would concentrate on that before looking for changes in equipment.
Great discussion all...really helpful...thanks.
I used to windsurf (and race sailing dinghys), and I get the whole idea of turning and sheeting in hard and really driving upwind, and I'm sure I need to do better with my technique winging, but I find that with my current setup it seems like it just hits a barrier where even if I'm powered up and cranking it will then top out and start losing power if I point any higher (which doesn't seem that high based on the angles that others around me are taking)...
To go deeper upwind you need:
1. Efficient foil, the less draggy foil the more you can go upwind. The pull from the wing in the direction of travel decreases if you point it more upwind. Efficient foil needs less pull l so you can point more upwind. For this reason, a thin high-aspect foil generally has better upwind performance.
2. Strong enough wind. In marginal conditions, you can't go upwind much because you have less pull in the direction of travel. Sometimes you have just enough power for the beam reach direction.
3. Rider ability. A good rider can squeeze more from the wind and can bank more to use the lift from the foil to propel upwind.
The more you bank the less upward lift (means you can go faster without too much lift) and the more horizontal component of the lift in the upwind direction.
4. Good wing certainly helps. I find the wing with a flatter profile and design for high-speed generally performs better in close hauls. The old baggy wing will not go upwind as well as the new wing.
Select to expand quoteSpokeyDoke said..
Great discussion all...really helpful...thanks.
I used to windsurf (and race sailing dinghys), and I get the whole idea of turning and sheeting in hard and really driving upwind, and I'm sure I need to do better with my technique winging, but I find that with my current setup it seems like it just hits a barrier where even if I'm powered up and cranking it will then top out and start losing power if I point any higher (which doesn't seem that high based on the angles that others around me are taking)...
It was the same for me. I switched from a sabfoil 899 (AR 5.8) to a naish s27 1240 (AR 7.2), changed nothing about my technique and suddenly went upwind like never before. So in my opinion, equipment does change a whole lot.
Select to expand quotepacoz said..SpokeyDoke said..
Great discussion all...really helpful...thanks.
I used to windsurf (and race sailing dinghys), and I get the whole idea of turning and sheeting in hard and really driving upwind, and I'm sure I need to do better with my technique winging, but I find that with my current setup it seems like it just hits a barrier where even if I'm powered up and cranking it will then top out and start losing power if I point any higher (which doesn't seem that high based on the angles that others around me are taking)...
It was the same for me. I switched from a sabfoil 899 (AR 5.8) to a naish s27 1240 (AR 7.2), changed nothing about my technique and suddenly went upwind like never before. So in my opinion, equipment does change a whole lot.
I've been on a Lift Surf 250 V2...AR: 4.6
Next season I'll be on stuff w/AR's 8-10.5
Select to expand quotepacoz said..SpokeyDoke said..
Great discussion all...really helpful...thanks.
I used to windsurf (and race sailing dinghys), and I get the whole idea of turning and sheeting in hard and really driving upwind, and I'm sure I need to do better with my technique winging, but I find that with my current setup it seems like it just hits a barrier where even if I'm powered up and cranking it will then top out and start losing power if I point any higher (which doesn't seem that high based on the angles that others around me are taking)...
It was the same for me. I switched from a sabfoil 899 (AR 5.8) to a naish s27 1240 (AR 7.2), changed nothing about my technique and suddenly went upwind like never before. So in my opinion, equipment does change a whole lot.
Well I guess we don't all have common experiences then as I have foiled on mid and high aspect foils in different sizes/ different drag thicknesses and had no problem pointing high upwind.. The different foils would hinder or help with speed but had negligible effect on ability to foil high upwind. Same for wing ..... bagged out wing slightly less speed and pointing ability compared to a new or flatter wing but never had anything I would consider a game changer for upwind ability ( I have not foiled with lots of different manufactures wings though). If you are talking about looking for higher speeds upwind then yes foil and wing selection will have an effect the same way it does on a beam reach etc.
I would put the hand wing higher on the list simply because there are some really bad ones out there... I have a friend on Naish Matadors and those things do not go upwind - I loaned him my old Reedins and he's going upwind now after struggling all season.
Learning to ride with the wing powered up and near vertical probably makes the biggest difference, a harness helps a lot with the extra load and promotes getting the wing low and powered up.
Select to expand quoteJonahL said..
I would put the hand wing higher on the list simply because there are some really bad ones out there... I have a friend on Naish Matadors and those things do not go upwind - I loaned him my old Reedins and he's going upwind now after struggling all season.
Learning to ride with the wing powered up and near vertical probably makes the biggest difference, a harness helps a lot with the extra load and promotes getting the wing low and powered up.
Agree. Slick SLS goes upwind significantly better than the original Slick.
"drive the Foil" has been brought up a couple of times. Would you mind elaborating a little more on what you mean by this. I may already be doing it and not realize it.
Select to expand quoteOahuwaterwalker said..
I'll add something from windsurfing that Ive found also applies to winging: turn your torso more open toward direction your trying to head upwind. This works well when your aim is to point as high as possible.
Agree. I can sail high on various setups and I'm from a windsurfing background and you are bang on; Look over your front shoulder upwind of where you are.
Other tips that I've been told that seem to work are
1. You can gain height when you get hit by a gust
2. Keep pushing and testing how high you can go by " rounding up", especially in the gusts, so you are crabbing to windward.
3. Adjusts for the lifts and knocks
4. Get the leading edge of the wing as close as possible to the rail of the board
5. Hold the centre strut so it dead level with the horizon. To do this almost feel like you are lifting your back hand higher than your front ( is a the Alan Cadiz tip)
Select to expand quoteninjatuna said..
"drive the Foil" has been brought up a couple of times. Would you mind elaborating a little more on what you mean by this. I may already be doing it and not realize it.
Instead of riding the foil flat you lean over and ride it at an angle. This will drive you upwind. Watch some kite foil racing and check the angles they get with huge masts and tiny foils.
Having the foil biased to front foot pressure helps with driving it in my experience.
If you have good equipment, and a trap harness, then it'll effectively tell you what you need to do to operate it correctly. So you experiment, feel what it wants and feed it. That's all you have to do. You could consider lean angle, ride height, heading angle to the wind, wing boom/handles angle vs horizontal. Which means you want a small foil with high-aspect and good glide, a longish+sleek fuselage, thin+stiff mast, narrow rounded board with small tail, and an efficient sail. The sail is a huge factor. To go upwind quickly, if you need to trim the sail on overly hard (rear hand in), or if the pressure moves around a lot in the sail, or if you cannot relax upwind and chill-out in your harness, then your sail is a dud. The best body posture is whatever feels good to you. Don't over think it.
Bringing up an old post...
I'm 70kg, pretty rubbish, can mow the lawn, can't turn but can go upwind
usually riding an HPS980 on a big board (115l)
I usually use a 5.5m strike v2
I went out today in a gusty SW, figured the strike would be too big so got out my old v1 ozone wasp 4m
It was crap, I couldn't go upwind to save myself, nearly resorted to paddle of shame home
eventually got there, immediately swapped the wasp out for the strike, went back out and was completely overpowered but had a good time, and the confidence to get myself home again.
Maybe I was just butchering the technique, but I think I'm going to get a smaller strike for the windy days.
Is it me, or the gear?
I find it much harder to go upwind if the wing is bagged out (my old Wasp v2) or if it is underinflated (eg. slow leak 30 min into a session!).
Time for new wings!
It's definitely much harder with a bagged out wing, the flatter the canopy the better the upwind angle.
Yeah so here's the interesting bit, even though it's old the wasp is hardly used, whereas I use the strike heaps and it was second hand!
Might just be personal preference/familiarity with the strike, it felt very different.
