In the wake of recent and past news of kite accidents, I thought it could be relevant to have some discussion about the safety of C-Kites vs. Bow/SLEs (or any version of a kite with bar-release de-power).
I find that as the sport continues to grow, and more people are getting into it, the used kite market is becoming more and more saturated with all kinds of different kites for people new to the sport to choose from, and they can get confused about what to buy, often lured by the cheapest (but certainly not safest) option.
In the past 3 weeks, I have met 3 new kiters, who have purchased used C-kites as their first kites, because they could pick them up so cheaply. All three of these kiters had already taken lessons, and all three of them were surprised when I told them about the differences in safety between the C-kites they bought (for around $200 each) and newer de-power Bow/SLE kites - they had not been given any, or at least did not remember getting any, encouragement from their instructors to buy a safer, de-power Bow/SLE kite.
Therefore, I ask: Do we, as a kite-surfing community, think we have a responsibility to educate people, interested in the sport, and those just getting into it, about the vast improvement in safety of the newer model (post-2006) Bow/SLE over older style C-kites?
i reckon the person how gave the lessons and the person who sold the kite should have mentioned Cs are not the best option for a noob.
however in saying that, when i was getting into the sport i did lots of reading. i trolled the forums and asked people on the beach on suitable gear.
maybe newbies are getting tricked by the marketing, ie. full depower, 5th line 'safety'.
bottom line is.............
kite shops shouldnt sell beginners old equip
I think the topic should be broached during lessons. But, at the end of the day, it is the individuals responsibility to ensure he/she knows what they are getting themselves into. I spent a lot of time looking at kite company websites, researching and talking to a couple of dealers about what I should buy.
I dont think there would be many shops around that would even bother selling 2nd hand pre 2006 kites now, and if they did, I'm sure they wouldn't sell it to a noob. Its just bad for business really.
However, if I was at the beach, and I saw a noob with an old 4 line C kite who clearly looked like they were going to get their @rse handed to them, I would definitely give them 5 minutes of my time. (And I have) Many of them are guys who bought the gear ages ago and left it in the garage for a few years before realising they should give it a go again.
Same goes for anyone who asks me a question while I am setting up/hanging out.
Its a fine line I guess. Most people will be appreciative of your help and open-ness. A few will grunt a few words and go back to beaning themselves. Its hard though, what would you do if someone walked up to you and said you have just wasted your money on a piece of obsolete poo, I think you would probably be annoyed at first but probably would perservere until you had the cash to get better gear.
So, I guess a good summary is - it's the individual's responsibility to know what they are getting into (equipment and risks) and the collective's responsibility to ensure that the newer guys don't go taking risks that lead to people getting hurt or access being banned, thereby spoling it for everyone.
Hey peeps,
The biggest problem is not the shops, but the general kiters. The average punter sells his kites and upgrades each year. With the glut of kites being sold second hand every year by intermediate riders and above and more and more gear adding ever year to the second hand market, we end up with a market flooded to the eyeballs with good performance gear, which is generally unsuited to beginners.
Beginners tend to buy up the previous years beginner gear and also purchase new gear. This is why there is so little beginner friendly gear on the market. It is sold to friends, by worrd of mouth at the beach or is traded in with shops on newer models.
With a massively flooded 2nd hand, performance gear market, and catastrophic resale devaluation, punters get desperate to even get an enquiry, when they finally do, they will tell the unsuspecting noob anything that he wants to hear just to get some coin together to pay for the upgrade kites!
Yeah mate these 2002 model Naish ARX Kites are awesome beginner kites. Super stable, easy relaunch, perfect for beginning.
A few shops do sell any old crap to beginners with no remorse or conscience, but these make up a small percentage of the dodgy kites sold weekly by the general kiting population.
Good winds,
Kitehard- I would agree with that too. Its a symptom of a consumerist society man... People feel they will do so much better with the latest gear rather than holding on to what they have for a few seasons and then binning it because it's blown out... Even if it makes no real difference to their performance on the water!!!
A wise man said to me once the high performance kites only make a difference to the top 5% of kiters out there so don't think you need to buy a new kite every season to improve...
Great discussion, I think we know WHY this happens, but as Sean asked, what can/should we do about it?
BTW - I don't have an answer, but am curious as to what others will add...
having been kiting for 5 years I learnt on and then flew c kites for 4 years with not a lot of problems, except walking down/back up the beach being sometimes overpowered if the wind had picked up. I then changed to sle kites and now would not fly anything else. Just for the safety on the beach, As my local beach is a mass of oyster shells which does the body no good when being dragged across them. I dont think that newbees using c kites is a real problem, most people that I know learnt on them, But it is worth telling them the advantages of bow/ sle kites have over c kites for the safety aspect as they probably learnt on a bow/sle. If anybody asks me for advice I always recomened a Sle, normally best brand, But the instructors should explain the difference to the newbees during the lessons as after all its all down to safety on the beach which should be a major part of learning to kite. trouble is it all comes down to money if you can only afford a cheap c kite thats what your gona get.
The last thing I want to see at our beach is a newby on a C. It gives me a sick feeling in the guts when it happens. Most the time it's from someone teaching their mate, not from what they have purchsed. What ever happened to learning on a small foil kite? If you want to teach your mates start small then go big. pretty simple really.
no one mentioned or compared the newer C kites... i thought the new C kites were big improvement in terms of depower...
so what are the differences between new C's and SLEs then?
liqiud force spectrum 2 05/06 4 line kite (12m) - bought for 220 bucks thinking it would compliment my 10m naish boxer as second lower wind kite. it will now adorn my living room as a cubby to play in..nice too look at but peice of **** to fly let alone ride..Love my Boxer..
I just sold 2 05 Rhinos to a newbie for $200. I expressly told him that he was much better off spending a bit more and getting something newer..
I had 3 beginners want to buy a small old board that I had because it was cheap and they just wanted to learn on it- I told them the truth and they didn't buy it.
I think in general beginners are told that the cheap gear is not appropriate but they only see dollar signs... I don't think there is dishonesty at work.
What happened to newbies pre bow and sle?
We all learnt on c kites and survived. It can be done. I agree that sle is the preferred mode of entry into this sport, but ebay and the second hand market is always gonna provide cheap c kite kits for unsuspecting newbies.
The key is the right instruction. Instructors should be educating their students on the benefits of sle's but also provide info on c kites.(and lessons on c kites if thats what the student is gonna buy). I always kept a 5m fuel on hand for these students.
Emphasis to newbies should be 'GET LESSONS' regardless of kit.
Too many newbies are trying to teach themselves or venturing into expert only locations on so called 100% depower kites. Standers-by can still be hammered by a bow kite.
I have seen plenty of near death experiences of newbies thinking they can get out of trouble purely by letting go of the bar. SLE's can lull you into a false sense of security. A 12m SLE will still spank you in 40knot gusts even when you let go of the bar.
Maybe there's a lack of instructors around who have actually ridden a c kite?
Sorry, but I am going to be rude and stick in my two sense worth.
Problem with some newbie is that they want something for nothing. If you bought a new car, and it was a Getz compared to a $40,000 saloon car and had a crash chances are you would be worse of in the cheap and nasty car.
Same goes for kiting, you can't expect to get into the sport and pay $200 and get anything that is going to last long and be safer than if you opened your ass cheeks and forced out a bit more wedge. Pay the $800 and get something that will really help you out.
Some people just can't be told, and ignorance is no excuse, I started kiting 5 years ago and c kites where and still are fine for learning. but the leasons that people get don't teach on C kites, so newbies don't know how to handle one. Pushing the bar away on an old C does little, you needed to learn to control the thing forcefully.
So do your research, pay a bit more for your kite and enjoy the sport.
The most important thing is understanding how your gear works.
Otherwise you are dangerous as an 18 year old who has just passed his test in a sports car.
Without being nasty, I have heard very mixed reviews of the levels of instruction received in Vic. They range from outstanding to absolutely horrific so I won't point fingers at the guilty parties. Unfortunately, I think there are some instructors who will always do the bare minimum to keep their jobs or customers happy, and unfortunately, the rest of the instructors look bad because of it.
I think the concept of instruction is not just about providing instruction on how to kite or the equipment you're learning on, but to provide instruction on how they can best equip themselves to enter a sport and thats where equipment instruction should be aimed. My wife's instruction was good, but her equipment instruction was aimed more at what brand she should buy, than what type of kite she should buy. She came out of her instruction telling me that my kites (07/08 bow/sle kites) weren't good enough and she would need to buy new ones. I understand instructors have a certain level of equipment loyalty because their income comes from there, but you are doing no favours to your customer by telling them to buy Cabrinha or Naish or whatever brand you support. Tell them what type of kite to buy and inform with enough credibility that they will follow your advice!
As I said before, its not to say all instructors are evil. I've seen a lot of positive actions from the instructors in St Kilda as well, for example, I've Chris from Kite Republic go out of his way move some dangerous beginners trying to learn on a 15m C kite in a gusty SE at St Kilda, and that was to try get them away from a student learning in an opposition's school so it wasn't because he had a vested interest in doing it or he was trying to protect his own people.
Of course, instructors aren't the only guilty parties. Most people are guilty of the "new kite excitement" that occurs when you test a new kite, decide to replace your old one and then find the nearest sucker to flog your kite off at the highest possible price. Its not about lying to the poor sucker, its about what you don't tell him...sure it has 100% depower, you pull this little safety here and it flags it onto one line and you have your 100% depower. Range? Of course this has range, I once flew this 12m C kite in 35 knots (neglecting to mention it was when a squall came through and you were praying to god that if you got to the beach safely you'd join the clergy)
Then of course there is the whole newbie "I want to start this sport now" logic where between spending $500 now or $1500 next month, the $500 now is more appealing because its now. Its the same logic that sends people out with new gear and no instruction because the next available lesson is in two weeks time and they want to learn NOW!
What a bunch of wimps !
Before these "do it easy" SLE things came along we all had to learn on C's ..
We actually learnt to rail hard to make the kite depower .
It wasn's as easy to learn but it sorted the wannabees from the serious ..
I have seen noobs on their brand new SLE's getting into all sorts of ridiculous and dangerous situations also ..
Everyone used to take lessons ..Now it seems the consensus is it's that easy with Bows you don't need em..
God they look so horrible in the air ..
There is a little bit of forum bullying against good instructors which stops them from talking about different gears.
When my instructor (Rob) told me that the C kite that I'm buying is not as safe as the seller was telling me I was going to change my mind but then that idiot owner of the C kite starts bullying Rob here and then things changed.
I am sorry that I didn't listen to Rob 2 years ago and I paid a big price by searching for cheap equipment and at the end I end up doing what my instructor told me at the first place.
Instructors are under pressure from both side
Reading all the replies so far, it seems that there is a general consensus of the following:
1. Bow/SLE kites are definitely safer and the preferred option for learning over traditional C-Kites
2. Bow/SLE kites are still dangerous and GOOD lessons are critical to make sure that the newbie knows how to handle the kites, is well versed in the safety features, understands the variability, force, and brutality of mother nature, and practices a cautious mindset when approaching what is still, and will always be, an extreme sport
3. People have learned and will continue to learn on C-kites, and will continue to buy them because they are the cheapest option - and many people will be OK doing so if they follow point 2 above and take lessons (from a reputable school) and understand wind conditions - however, as in point 1, they are taking much bigger risks by trying to learn on a C-kite (I am guessing most major-end-up-on-the-highway-type accidents have occurred while flying C-kites)
Having learned on C-Kites myself, and gotten through it OK, I know that it can be done - but personally I scared the ** out of myself a few times when learning (and I had been a very experienced windsurfer, totally comfortable in 40+ knots of wind and 4m+ waves) - I always recommend to any learner to get onto Bow/SLE's & take lessons, if they value their lives...
IMHO (even after a kn scary experience this week) 5th line Cs are relatively safe but obviously not in the same league as a 100% depower kites. The right person (ie correct attitude) could learn realtively safely with lessons and well maintained/designed 5th line Cs. Especially so if the punter can afford 2 inexpensive kites so as to be correctly sized for the conditions - not getting tempted to fly one kite in all wind strengths.
Unfortunately tight-wads (and yes that is me - oh poor broke me) will cut corners to get into the sport. Last season the dumbest actions I saw at Scarbs were by an Italian touro with a sparkly new 5th line C combined with a 4 line bar!! This outfit was very cheap and that was the idiot's primary motivation.
Now I was not happy with the actions/punter/shop, all round and told the guy not to even think about flying ANY kite until he had lessons (to which i noticably heard wind whistling through his ears). This dufus had not had a single lesson and was doing crazy sh!t amongst swimmers/walkers etc - ALL WRONG!! Try attempting to relaunch directly down wind with cranking winds after a faceplant/drag through beach walkers for starters!?! A total waste of oxygen!!
Still what it boiled down to was the individual completely ignored ALL the advice given to him and nearly fkd himself and those around him. The tight@rsed kn ijiot also pushed so hard for a bargain that the shop begrudgingly (still not cool though) sold less than safest gear.
As for (EDIT: pre 2004) 4 line Cs - they should be converted to 5th or burnt!
Hey Darren - I know you will be accused of pimping but Ozone's idea sound win-win all round. Cheaper development and therfore cost to punters (ahem.. hopefully) etc.
As for opinios to HTFU "I learnt on 4 lines and I'm ok!". Well no-one thinks it's cool to get a skinfull of p!ss and then drive ya kids home (as most of our folks did at some time) because we survived. The world changes and with any luck gets smarter.. Also with the shear number of kiters out there, if folks were learning on 4 lines kites these days there would be carnage every weekend.
Anyway - after 3 great seasons with my 5th line Cs (bought 2nd hand) that I really like, I will be (literally) scraping together every coin after chrissy to buy a 2nd hand 100% depower kite, to get as safe as I can with equipment not just relatively safe as i have been happy to until now.
Sigh... Live n learn.. it's the live bit that is most important though.
No matter how safe you make the kites there will still be accidents. It is the person who is using the equipment that causes the accidents NOT the equipment itself.
1) Check forecast
2) Check all your gear every time you go out. (lines, pressure, harness etc)
3) Only go out as far as you are willing to SWIM back in.
4) Never go out alone
I learnt on the "dangerous" C kites which had about 3cm of de-power. Crap kites to learnt on...but they made me appreciate the dangers of the sport and to watch all the other factors that are associate with kiting, such as wind strength, gusts, weather changes, hard edging to bring kite into safe zone, not going too close to rocks, throwing the safety before the situation becomes too bad.....etc etc
Kitesurfing is more than 90% kite control. If you can control your kite in ALL situations then you should not have an accident.
What a load of crap, no amount of safety de-power or safety features will make up for common sense which so many newbies in this sport lack! In the early days we all learnt on 2 line kites with zero depower and somehow we survived! As uncle Chopper says.....