Forums > Windsurfing General

Stupidity

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Created by OceanBlue64 > 9 months ago, 14 Dec 2008
OceanBlue64
VIC, 980 posts
14 Dec 2008 4:30PM
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Now I dont have a beef with kitesurfers as I have found them to be pretty friendly and conciderate where I sail but while reading through other threads on this forum I came across this: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44649

I am no wowser or part of the fun police and have been known to go pretty hard at the things I do, but to me this is just pure stupidity. Surely common sense should prevail in this situation?????

wave knave
306 posts
14 Dec 2008 2:49PM
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sadly, common sense and kiting often seem to be mutually exclusive.
[}:)]

Mark _australia
WA, 22539 posts
14 Dec 2008 4:45PM
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What a bl00dy idiot.

lalalamort
NSW, 160 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:06PM
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Thats ridiculous. Enough people get in stupid accidents with kites without adding this other element.

Haggar
QLD, 1665 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:06PM
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Lunacy. Risk of spinal injurys up by 100

laff77
NSW, 272 posts
14 Dec 2008 8:30PM
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A good argument for people to be licensed before they breed.

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:37PM
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OceanBlue64 said...

Now I dont have a beef with kitesurfers as I have found them to be pretty friendly and conciderate where I sail but while reading through other threads on this forum I came across this: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44649

I am no wowser or part of the fun police and have been known to go pretty hard at the things I do, but to me this is just pure stupidity. Surely common sense should prevail in this situation?????


Sounds to me like you are actively trying to be a fun cop, **** we did stuff far more dangerous as kids. Apart from no floatation for the kid I don't see a problem with this. I took my son out on board a while ago and it pissed me off the number of "concerned" do gooders who worried and sprouted the crap. You haven't see the guy kite, and how about you just assume for once the guy is like the majority of parents whom would put their kids life before their own. Actually that is a mis-statement as the Australian way now seems to be stand by, watch and get upset instead of them jumping in and taking action.

OceanBlue64
VIC, 980 posts
14 Dec 2008 8:44PM
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mkseven said...


Sounds to me like you are actively trying to be a fun cop, **** we did stuff far more dangerous as kids. Apart from no floatation for the kid I don't see a problem with this. I took my son out on board a while ago and it pissed me off the number of "concerned" do gooders who worried and sprouted the crap. You haven't see the guy kite, and how about you just assume for once the guy is like the majority of parents whom would put their kids life before their own. Actually that is a mis-statement as the Australian way now seems to be stand by, watch and get upset instead of them jumping in and taking action.


Yes I did far more dangerous things but my parents always tried to minimise my risks, not increase them.
As for the kid shown, what if there is a gust and the kiter is dragged? What if there is a sudden turn and heads clash?? Doesnt matter how good a kiter he is, accidents happen. That child is strapped to his back so has no chance at all if something should go wrong.
Having a kid on a board is different (as long as he/she has a floatation device) as they are totally independant of you and not strapped in to the board or yourself. You also dont have cords that can wrap around you etc.

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:53PM
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Kiters get trapped in their own lines? Dragging is a risk, just as much as the mast smacking the kid in the head in that pic of the windsurfer that was posted.

Did you ask the guy whether he had quick release or anything for the pack before you jumped down his neck? He has control of the kid, more so than a kid that is riding on a board, what if kid goes over the front of the board and gets run over? What if, what if... the world is full of them, this guy took a calculated risk not stupidity.

I will agree with one thing, that is I would not jump with kid on my back.

As for anything else i will put money on greater risk of neck injury for those kids that they strap into race cars yet no one seems to complain about things like that cause they are done in the name of charity.

Sorry but alot of windsurfers actually need to stop and look at some kiters and understand they have just as much control as they do.

Funny that I have seen similar setups with people water skiiing, but no one complained about that... guess they don't get dragged

sandman
WA, 432 posts
14 Dec 2008 6:57PM
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OceanBlue64 said...

Doesnt matter how good a kiter he is, accidents happen.



is it not true to then say that it doesn't matter how good a windsurfer he is (even svein rasmussen) a catapult is still possible. I know whenever I catapulted it was over in 1 second and the nose of the board caught the brunt of the boom and mast. in that photo it would be the kids head (Connor?) AND there is no helmet... interesting considering that the GOs now come with a padded nose.

OceanBlue64 said...

That child is strapped to his back so has no chance at all if something should go wrong.



neither does a kid with a cracked skull... harsh I know...

lalalamort
NSW, 160 posts
14 Dec 2008 8:57PM
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Well no one said they would windsurf with their kid on hte front of their board either

sandman
WA, 432 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:00PM
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no one except the head honcho of one of the world largest windsurfing board manufacturers.

elizabethb
QLD, 2081 posts
14 Dec 2008 8:17PM
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I think there are far worse things than this happening to children today that you should spend your time fighting for. You have no idea the number of kids who have been intervened with at a young age and who say nothing until later primary school; it is just disguising, now THAT is bad parenting doing that to your kids; abuse or such, or allowing it to happen or not being aware of the relatives around you.

YES, I admit that it could be a risk, but considering that she is on his back, and unless you are doing a trick or jump, you always crash or get too powered and fall on your stomach. I am certain that he wouldn’t be doing this if he wasn’t confident that he wasn’t putting his daughter at risk.

I'm asking, as a parent, isn't it YOUR own opinion and judgement that is used when deciding what is safe or unsafe for your children? How many parents allow their kids to ride their bikes without helmets or at 12 let them stay at home to look after younger siblings when ANY problem could occur!? It doesn't mean they are bad parents, if they made their own educated decision!? Or does it?

Oceanblue….

Doesnt matter how good a kiter he is, accidents happen.

However, as they say, you’re more likely to get killed driving to the beach, rather than any beach activity!? If you want to put realistic statistics into this discussion. What wins, statistics or common sense!? Maybe both should prevail.

AND I am not making this a kiters vs. windys discussion, what about surfers surfing with their kids on the front of the board!? What about noes diving and the kid breaking their neck or anything!? etc.....

hoop
1979 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:34PM
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I think you should all lock your children under the stairs untill they are 21. Just in case anything bad happens to them.

Mark _australia
WA, 22539 posts
14 Dec 2008 7:53PM
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I cannot believe anyone could condone this: The most minor injury to the father could result in an injury whereby he cannot swim with his daughter on his back. Further, he can't see her head so after a crash how can he see if she has her head underwater? Whilst treading water without the lift of the kite her head would continually have chop washing over it making it hard to breathe.

A kid only needs to inhale ONE lungful of water and they can't breathe. If he has a 5 min swim back to land with no kite or board (not exactly a rare occurrence) and she had a lungful of water that 5min delay before CPR etc can start will kill her.


AUS691
QLD, 123 posts
14 Dec 2008 8:54PM
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If she were wearing a PFD 1 and weren't firmly attached to him (ie if bad stuff happens to him she gets left floating safely well away from said bad stuff), I'd be fine with it. It's the lack of this basic water safety measure for a young child that gets me.

OceanBlue64
VIC, 980 posts
14 Dec 2008 10:02PM
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AUS691 said...

If she were wearing a PFD 1 and weren't firmly attached to him (ie if bad stuff happens to him she gets left floating safely well away from said bad stuff), I'd be fine with it. It's the lack of this basic water safety measure for a young child that gets me.


I agree. I am not against the concept of piggy backing the child with a kite as long as some form of safety measures are taken. From the images shown there appear to be none.

And the same would go for a child on the front of a windsurfer. Minimum of PDF and helmet.

Haggar
QLD, 1665 posts
14 Dec 2008 9:05PM
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I guess it all boils down to how a parent raises their kids and how much risk you let them take on. I would'nt take my kids on a windsurfer in planing conditions, but I have had my daughter hang on the back strap when she was little. My neighbor had his 4 year old kid riding a quad bike up and down the street, seemed insane to me, but he thought it was cool.

Wood Duck
157 posts
14 Dec 2008 9:00PM
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what a stupid dumb half wit !!!!!!!!!

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
14 Dec 2008 10:18PM
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Haggar said...

I guess it all boils down to how a parent raises their kids and how much risk you let them take on. I would'nt take my kids on a windsurfer in planing conditions, but I have had my daughter hang on the back strap when she was little. My neighbor had his 4 year old kid riding a quad bike up and down the street, seemed insane to me, but he thought it was cool.


What about a shark biting said daughter as she was trolled along behind board producing bubbles?

My point is rather everyone has paid out on this dude without knowing the full situation, around here most kites don't go much further than they can stand in the water. So from the photo how deep was the water? How competent a kiter is he? Possibly yes he shouldn't be promoting this action where a not so good kiter attempts this. If you are at the point where you think with your sailing- if i let the sail go forward and hit the kid in the head DONT try it because simply your sailing skills and or conditions chosen are not acceptable for the risk. Anyone who has tried putting kids on their board knows you never put yourself in position where the sail will go forward.

Yes he was foolish not putting a pfd on the kid and jumping where kid would get whiplashed around a bit. But hey I see thousands more parents everyday being even more stupid and complacent about their kids saftey when they let them out on the traffic side of cars etc.

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
14 Dec 2008 9:25PM
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Quads and peewees are all the go here in Kalgoorlie. One day at Hannans lake , we were on the way home from work near dusk on a cold winters day, and found a 10 year old pushing a quad , He was 10 km from town . when we dropped him at home , after dark , his parents didnt even know he was gone. and didnt appear to care.

Ian K
WA, 4055 posts
14 Dec 2008 9:42PM
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And what about kids trikes? Who invented them and why do we keep giving them to kids. Completely unstable, a guaranteed head conking. The average IQ would be up 10 points if we banned them.

If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
14 Dec 2008 10:57PM
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Ian K said...
....
If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


gust - loft - crash.

There are lots of dead experts.

Mark _australia
WA, 22539 posts
14 Dec 2008 9:59PM
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Ian K said...

And what about kids trikes? Who invented them and why do we keep giving them to kids. Completely unstable, a guaranteed head conking. The average IQ would be up 10 points if we banned them.

If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


As I said above: expert kayakers, windsurfers, surfers etc DROWN. The kid on your back cannot possibly defend themselves or survive if something goes wrong.

elizabethb
QLD, 2081 posts
14 Dec 2008 11:00PM
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NotWal said...

Ian K said...
....
If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


gust - loft - crash.

There are lots of dead experts.




What about kids riding bicycles as Ian K said; that is why they have installed the cams in 4WD and cars to be able to stop parents from reversing over their kids.... I BET no one ever thought kids riding bikes could be such a risk!?

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
14 Dec 2008 11:16PM
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elizabethb said...

NotWal said...

Ian K said...
....
If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


gust - loft - crash.

There are lots of dead experts.




What about kids riding bicycles as Ian K said; that is why they have installed the cams in 4WD and cars to be able to stop parents from reversing over their kids.... I BET no one ever thought kids riding bikes could be such a risk!?


It'd be hard to live with an error like that.

The kiter dinking his daughter doesn't think it's much of a risk either. I really don't know but the fact that the guy is an "expert" is no recommendation. It strikes me as foolhardy but as I said, I really don't know. You would be a better judge Liz. What do you think?

Mark _australia
WA, 22539 posts
14 Dec 2008 10:18PM
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Yes you can't wrap them in cotton wool all their lives, but the bike analogy is utterly ridiculous. It in no way compares to strapping a kid on your back and going kitesurfing
A parent's job is to protect and nurture, not take unneccessary risks with their kids.

elizabethb
QLD, 2081 posts
14 Dec 2008 11:20PM
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NotWal said...

elizabethb said...

NotWal said...

Ian K said...
....
If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


gust - loft - crash.

There are lots of dead experts.




What about kids riding bicycles as Ian K said; that is why they have installed the cams in 4WD and cars to be able to stop parents from reversing over their kids.... I BET no one ever thought kids riding bikes could be such a risk!?


It'd be hard to live with an error like that.

The kiter dinking his daughter doesn't think it's much of a risk either. I really don't know but the fact that the guy is an "expert" is no recommendation. It strikes me as foolhardy but as I said, I really don't know. You would be a better judge Liz. What do you think?


Dave, its not that I would be a better judge, but isn't it the sole parent/s responsibility to decide what is best for their child; not the general public. I am not a parent, but how would youeel if you were judged because you had your daughter on the front of a surfboard or SUP board beause you were confident and they could swim!?

Same as saying what if it was Richard Brandson who was kiting and doing it or a famous windsurfer or surfer?!

Ian K
WA, 4055 posts
14 Dec 2008 10:25PM
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NotWal said...

Ian K said...
....
If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


gust - loft - crash.

There are lots of dead experts.




No it's got to be more than a gust that brings experts unstuck, a thunder stom updraught or a southerly buster maybe, and as experts they knew they were pushing the limit weatherwise when they came unstuck.

I've sailed with expert kiters in strong noreasters, the've survived plenty of the gusts associated with these uncomplicated winds. They can chat to me on the beach with the kite parked overhead in 30 knots - to me nothing looks remotely like going wrong.

but it is a question of mine for an expert - What can go wrong for an expert in a stable seabreeze airflow with no thunderstorms in sight?? More details please.



NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
14 Dec 2008 11:50PM
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elizabethb said...

NotWal said...

elizabethb said...

NotWal said...

Ian K said...
....
If an expert kiter decides to sail conservatively in stable weather what can go wrong?


gust - loft - crash.

There are lots of dead experts.




What about kids riding bicycles as Ian K said; that is why they have installed the cams in 4WD and cars to be able to stop parents from reversing over their kids.... I BET no one ever thought kids riding bikes could be such a risk!?


It'd be hard to live with an error like that.

The kiter dinking his daughter doesn't think it's much of a risk either. I really don't know but the fact that the guy is an "expert" is no recommendation. It strikes me as foolhardy but as I said, I really don't know. You would be a better judge Liz. What do you think?


Dave, its not that I would be a better judge, but isn't it the sole parent/s responsibility to decide what is best for their child; not the general public. I am not a parent, but how would youeel if you were judged because you had your daughter on the front of a surfboard or SUP board beause you were confident and they could swim!?

Same as saying what if it was Richard Brandson who was kiting and doing it or a famous windsurfer or surfer?!



You'd be a better judge from a kiting safety point of view.

Yes kids safety is the responsibility of their parents. But parents aren't necessarily responsible. I have seen parents driving with a child on their lap. Obviously they think its ok. Most of the time they would get away with it. That doesn't mean its responsible or safe.

As for how I would feel about being judged, most criminals resent it. I guess I would too. Not to imply that kiting with a child strapped to you is criminal behaviour, but it might be. Driving with a child on your lap certainly is and that definitely works in the interests of child safety.

What's the ethical test here?

elizabethb
QLD, 2081 posts
15 Dec 2008 12:08AM
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NotWal said...

You'd be a better judge from a kiting safety point of view.

Yes kids safety is the responsibility of their parents. But parents aren't necessarily responsible. I have seen parents driving with a child on their lap. Obviously they think its ok. Most of the time they would get away with it. That doesn't mean its responsible or safe.

As for how I would feel about being judged, most criminals resent it. I guess I would too. Not to imply that kiting with a child strapped to you is criminal behaviour, but it might be. Driving with a child on your lap certainly is and that definitely works in the interests of child safety.

What's the ethical test here?


Oh thank you, but to the level which I would strap a child to my back, I cannot comment. Until that day comes, if ever, I will not pass judgment.

Now you mention it, as boating rules apply where starboard/ port and speed rules apply whilst in the channel, I might assume that the child (who is of a certain age) should be wearing a PDF!? Maybe that is illegal then!? Who polices this though?....

Anyway. You know ethics is area I can discuss for a lengthy time; however.... I think I shall leave this discussion as is. You brought up a very valid point regarding the parents not always being responsible in regards to their children, but there are far worse things going on that should have time spent on it; imho; I've been one to just recently realize this



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"Stupidity" started by OceanBlue64