When all car manufacturing is gone will the cheaper built imported cars be cheaper to buy or will we still be paying the same price for a new car?
we don't make a proper work ute
we don't make a tradies van or a courier truck
big rugged country... we don't even make a decent 4wd
Select to expand quotemr love said..
ALL countries that have vehicle manufacturing subsidise the industry with either tariffs, co- investment or other means. Out of the 13 countries that build cars Australia was the least subsidised. It is also one of the most open and competitive markets due to low levels of protection and our high currency attracting lots of imports. You simply cannot attract the multinationals to build cars in your country without some form of co-investment or protection, why, because it is not a level playing field and other countries are dangling big carrots to attract that investment, that is the way of the business world.
The Australian Government was divided on their position to ongoing support, they had the facts, the timelines yet the rhetoric was mixed and at times very negative and even aggressive. There were many factors in GMs decision to pull the pin but you would be naive to think that the government behaviour was not a factor.
The flow on effects of having large scale manufacturing like automotive are large. It employs lots of people, it invests in R&D, it creates a chain of first, second and third tier suppliers who in turn employ lots of people. It attracts foreign investment. It trains and develops skills, supports educational institutions in fields such as engineering and design. I could go on and on. If you don't believe me then go and read the US treasuries report into the 2008/2009 bailout of GM and Chrysler. It ultimately cost the US taxpayer 10.5 billion and saved them 103 billion in lost taxation, unemployment benefits and food stamps and saved a minimum of 1.5 million jobs.
Here's the thing I don't get...there was an editorial in one of the Financial rags today that stated that for every dollar invested in the auto industry, it returned (through employment, productivity, taxes, tariffs etc) about $18 to the economy. So I think we have to be really careful about what we are being spun....is it a subsidy or an investment in the economy?
Correct Mick it is an investment, exactly why every other car making country does it. Unfortunately as much as he tried Mike Deveraux did not succeed in selling that message, the main stream media was too obsessed with sensationalism "handouts to foreign car makers"" blah blah and pushing the economic rationalist point of view. The real story was out there but just got shouted down.
As I said in my earlier post, the US treasury inquiry into the car industry bailouts has concluded that the ultimate cost to the taxpayer prevented a bill to the taxpayer of 10 times what it cost to save the industry.
For Holden it is done and dusted but lets hope the message sinks in before we completely lose our entire manufacturing industry.
I know that many people will totally disagree with me and don't believe in government intervention when it comes to private industry but in a world where the playing field is anything but level it is my belief one of governments responsibilities is to generate policies that both allow Australian companies to compete on something like an even footing globally and that attract foreign investment that employs Australians.
We appear to be failing.
is there a dedicated motor vehicle manufacturers superannuation fund , similar to the BUS [ building union superannuation] ??
if there is , would the 3000 staff be prepared to buy the machinery with there super and continue producing cars . Take a pay cut to become competitive ? and keep working !!
the machines are there the people are there . wouldn't it be great just to keep turning up making cars and selling them ?
come on government ... tax imports, you morons
give tax breaks on local purchases .
why is Australia so frigging politically correct ? free trade ? what a frigging soft touch we are !!!!
unions... need to pull their heads in , get back in their box and let people work to earn a living .
we have too many choices , we want too much and we are breeding a bunch of lazy mongrels .
apart from that , i think all is fine and dandy.
and no i wont punctuate properly !!!!!!!!
For all the guys saying hur hur labor fanboys blaming the government I'd like to point out:
1. Despising the current bunch of passionfingers doesn't make one a labor fanboy. The one single thing they've touched but not r00ted entirely since coming in to power was to secure a deal with the greens to remove the debt ceiling. Despite saying 6 months ago that they'd never ever ever ever over their dead bodies do a deal with the greens. Every other issue has been hamfistedly beaten around to a poor outcome. All of our neighbors are angry with us now - they've literally managed to p!ss off half the world (statistically) in 6 months. Graincorp, aged care, child care all gone. Rorting from the top down. Disrespect at the warsaw climate convention (sending juniors to stoll in late in T shirts when everyone else in suits etc) Today's report that the fraudband NBN-lite proposal will be way late, over budget, and slow. All of these things show massive ineptitude and there's plenty of other examples I could pick. But despite all that, Labor had to go, at least for one term. I just wish there had been a better alternative. Mad Clive was almost a better choice just for the entertainment value.
2. While I'm not blaming the government for market forces, I think it's fair to blame them for the way they've handled the situation. With the wrecking ball that got them thru their time in opposition, but without the plan for what comes after. Birmingham says it better than I can.
The Abbott government proved, yet again, that it is incapable of mature and nuanced responses to the sort of political and economic challenges that are entirely predictable http://www.smh.com.au/comment/blogs/blunt-instrument/joe-hockeys-fighting-spirit-encapsulates-all-that-is-wrong-with-the-abbott-government-20131212-2z8ys.html
With little manufacturing of anything now we are living on borrowed time. Most jobs in this country are now or soon will be service or mining/resource jobs. We sell raw materials but we make virtually nothing. Free trade is a sham to de-industrialise the West,Australia is included in that. You think the Gov cares for you when they allow this industry to fail? Impossible to compete with cheap overseas labor,so the answer is higher tax on imported vehicles.
And now they have flagged there will be no more money for Toyota
www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-14/tony-abbott-rules-out-more-money-for-toyota/5156774
The mind boggles.
I have recently got to know a whole new circle of friends. I have been astounded to discover that only 4 or 5 of the 30 odd people knew anything about even the major issues debated in the recent election. These are nice, well educated professionally employed people, they just simply do not look beyond their own sphere of existence. I am very worried as to how this translates to the broader population. It does explain to me how Australia blindly votes for each of the big two parties in turn, two terms each, over and over...
Personally I think the simplest solution lays in the world of journalism, our journalists rarely ask the hard questions, our tv no longer presents 'experts in the field of...'. We are inundated with 'opinion' and agenda driven from the few already in power.
My 2 cents worth for now anyway 
A friend runs a small manufacturing firm in Melbourne, building car parts for everyone from suppliers to Ford and Holden to aftermarket turbos for Japanese imports and 4WDs.
I saw him about a month ago and he said that if Holden goes, he'll shut down, sell the factory and go and try and get a job. Without the base-line day-in-day-out work for the big boys paying the rent, there's not enough money to realistically keep going.
He employs 8 or 9 people.
I'm not a fan of subsidies / investments, etc., but this really puts the consequences into focus. There must be so many small firms in a similar situation.
For the first time in my life a political party not using my taxes to subsidise a corporation. Abbott your a bloody legend!
Yes. I never could warm to the idea of the taxpayer being forced to fund private corporations. It is the welfare state on steroids.
Possibly this situation will be a boon to car repairers and after market parts manufacturers.
The car industry has been shoving new vehicles into the top of the market willy nilly when there are more than enough cars on the road already.
Then of course there is the question of carbon footprint/environmental sustainability and peak oil.
New vehicles have progressively been getting poorer in quality, less long lasting and less repairable for decades. My 29 year old XE Fairmont is not quite as fuel efficient as the current model but it is certainly a lot more repair efficient and could quite easily still be on the road for another 29 years.
I just cannot develop the same optimism for current model vehicles.
Australia does need an automobile manufacturing industry to produce a range of vehicles specifically designed and built to suit Australian conditions and primarily for our domestic market.
If other countries want to buy them too it would be a bonus.
My 2 cents worth.
Yeah! I agree 100%. Lets make all the university students pay they actual cost for their degrees! No way do I want to subsidise their education!
It's like all those businesses that use university educated people are getting a free ride.
It's not fair!
Those truck drivers have got it too easy too. They are obviously using the roads more than I do, so why am I helping pay for them.
It's not fair!
Old people! They are using 'my' taxes and not being productive. Get rid of them and stop supporting those non-productive, lazy so and sos.
It's not fair!
School kids! They don't pay the actual cost of their education, and they spread disease to boot! Make them pay full price or send them home!
It's not fair!
XE Falcon owners! They use more fuel per kilometre than the VS commodore owners, and are passing the cost on to the rest of us. We shouldn't subsidise their gas guzzlers! Out with them too!
Wow, this user-pays system will work wonders. No subsidies and no jobs to complain about.
Fantastic. Thanks Team Abbott!
Select to expand quotecisco said..
Yes. I never could warm to the idea of the taxpayer being forced to fund private corporations. It is the welfare state on steroids.
Possibly this situation will be a boon to car repairers and after market parts manufacturers.
The car industry has been shoving new vehicles into the top of the market willy nilly when there are more than enough cars on the road already.
Then of course there is the question of carbon footprint/environmental sustainability and peak oil.
New vehicles have progressively been getting poorer in quality, less long lasting and less repairable for decades. My 29 year old XE Fairmont is not quite as fuel efficient as the current model but it is certainly a lot more repair efficient and could quite easily still be on the road for another 29 years.
I just cannot develop the same optimism for current model vehicles.
Australia does need an automobile manufacturing industry to produce a range of vehicles specifically designed and built to suit Australian conditions and primarily for our domestic market.
If other countries want to buy them too it would be a bonus.
My 2 cents worth.
Completely off topic Cisco, but how's the rust going in the falcon? In NSW I think the annual inspections make keeping older cars a bit more difficult, because sometimes parts are hard to get. On a trip to Victoria recently I was surprised to see a lot older cars around, and I couldn't help but think its the lack of rego inspections.
As for your argument, I am not sure what you are arguing. The demise of Ford and Holden here is not going to reduce the number of cars. It will probably be neutral. People are still going to be buying the same amount of cars, it's just that they will all be imports and all of our money will be going off shore to overseas car companies, and not supporting a local manufacturing industry.
You are then arguing that Australia needs cars designed for Australia. What do you think Ford and Holden have been trying to do? They were trying to export them too, and the high value of the dollar made that very difficult.
So, are you supporting the idea of subsidising a local car industry to produce a local car and generating jobs and income, or not?
^^^^ Yeah right.............. maybe the Gov has been there and done that AND been burnt.......... How much does Mitsubishi STILL owe the Gov of SA?
www.abc.net.au/news/2008-02-05/mitsubishi-would-owe-taxpayers-rann/1032902
Maybe the Gov would be better buying the land that GMH sits on then when they leave it can be sold off for housing estates etc.
Can someone explain to me how it was possible for Generous Motors to build left hand drive statesman caprices- specially fitted out as a police cruiser for the US and middle easterm police forces, and sell them at $25k, when we paid a hell of a lot more for standard RHD models from the same factory?
And I am pretty sure this was happening when our dollar was worth more than the US dollar!
If Aussie built cars can be custom fitted with special seats, electrics, electronics, wheels, tyres, suspension etc - then shipped half way round the world and sold for almost half the price paid locally- something dodgy is happening.
stephen
Same as ANYTHING sold in Australia............we are getting ripped off!!! ie, music downloads, software, DVD's etc
Why do you think online sales are booming? I can get stuff made in Melbourne or Sydney then sent and sold in the USA and then shipped to me cheaper than I can get it direct from suppliers in Oz.....
It is a good question why cars are so much cheaper in the USA, especially when they are made here.
It should be noted that although they are called Caprices, the ones in the US meant to be cop cars have a really low end interior spec, so its not quite as luxury as you would think from the name, so you can't compare them 1 for 1.
I think they would need to be cheap to compete with all the other cars over there. Maybe they could increase the prices if the market liked the car, but its an interesting question nonetheless.
It is not, and never has been, a question of what somemething is worth, rather a question of what the marketplace will bear.
Select to expand quoteFormulaNova said.. the ones in the US meant to be cop cars have a really low end interior spec, so its not quite as luxury as you would think from the name, so you can't compare them 1 for 1.
From what I recall, the rear seat was designed to suit passengers with thier hands cuffed behind thier back, and the rear seat could be easily removed for hosing down and cleaning of "occupant residue".
The car also came with built in security screen between front and back,
Front seats made to suit police wearing handgun, baton radio etc on thier belt,
Rifle and shotgun racks [every car should have these]
"Police pack" electronics / computer and communications systems and screens,
Uprated suspension/ brakes/ engine,
All the police warning lights and spotlights and sirens.
IIRC, some had fire suppression systems built in - and even column shift was available to free up room on the centre console for more police stuff.
I wouldnt call all that "low end interior spec"- more like purpose built to do its job!
Its not exactly a Belmont sedan with a blue light bolted to the roof
stephen
Select to expand quotesn said..FormulaNova said.. the ones in the US meant to be cop cars have a really low end interior spec, so its not quite as luxury as you would think from the name, so you can't compare them 1 for 1.
From what I recall, the rear seat was designed to suit passengers with thier hands cuffed behind thier back, and the rear seat could be easily removed for hosing down and cleaning of "occupant residue".
The car also came with built in security screen between front and back,
Front seats made to suit police wearing handgun, baton radio etc on thier belt,
Rifle and shotgun racks [every car should have these]
"Police pack" electronics / computer and communications systems and screens,
Uprated suspension/ brakes/ engine,
All the police warning lights and spotlights and sirens.
IIRC, some had fire suppression systems built in - and even column shift was available to free up room on the centre console for more police stuff.
I wouldnt call all that "low end interior spec"- more like purpose built to do its job!
Its not exactly a Belmont sedan with a blue light bolted to the roof
stephen
I am thinking its a taxi-pack interior, i.e. vinyl everywhere.
'police-pack' electronics would be bog standard. These days, there is pretty much nothing special about it. Upgraded suspension is just a set of springs and shocks from the catalog that cost the same as any other combination. Nothing special about it.
Communication systems and screens? I doubt it. Each police force would have their own requirements and I am pretty sure they would wack in what they feel comfortable supporting and using, not just what Holden decided to fit.
So, I don't think its really much more than the 'Belmont with a blue light'.
Tried to find the video of the commocruiser, showing the special lift out seating and other stuff developed for the police cruisers, but no luck,
some basic pics and details here though-
www.goauto.com.au/news/holden/commodore/official-holden-to-export-commodore-as-us-police-car/2009-10-05/10869.html
stephen
Select to expand quotecisco said..
Yes. I never could warm to the idea of the taxpayer being forced to fund private corporations. It is the welfare state on steroids.
Possibly this situation will be a boon to car repairers and after market parts manufacturers.
The car industry has been shoving new vehicles into the top of the market willy nilly when there are more than enough cars on the road already.
Then of course there is the question of carbon footprint/environmental sustainability and peak oil.
New vehicles have progressively been getting poorer in quality, less long lasting and less repairable for decades. My 29 year old XE Fairmont is not quite as fuel efficient as the current model but it is certainly a lot more repair efficient and could quite easily still be on the road for another 29 years.
I just cannot develop the same optimism for current model vehicles.
Australia does need an automobile manufacturing industry to produce a range of vehicles specifically designed and built to suit Australian conditions and primarily for our domestic market.
If other countries want to buy them too it would be a bonus.
My 2 cents worth.
I love how you're so concerned about the "carbon footprint/environmental sustainablilty and peak oil " angle....Haha... Cisco... stop it
I've got 2 Fords. My car is a 2007 Fairlane - think it's the last year they made them? It is an awesome car, I've freaking loved the thing since I got it. Shame I can't upgrade.
My wife drives the 7 seater Territory for all the kids and their friends, she loves it. Great cars.
I was going to change to a Mercedes but I heard that Cadillac will be in Aust soon. Probably even sooner now...never to late to get your first Holden (GM) huh....
