A Canadian guy lost his life due to a death loop drowning. The details can be read on kiteforum. Just wondering if it is worth exploring this potentially life threatening situation again and make some experienced crew can give some advice on what to do given this is a situation that most of us will encounter at some stage. Except of course our friend waveslave who doesn't use a leash.
has got me thinking anyhow some education and attention might be worth putting out there as winter comes on.
kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2380364
If you see a kiter being death-dragged,
don't attempt to land the kite.
A spiralling kite moving at speed is quite difficult to catch.
The best option is to tackle the kiter and hold on tight.
Thanks eppo for the heads up - makes an interesting read
The following line in the kiteforum discussion caught my attention -
"...each spot ought have a suggested riding conditions spec onsite or online (and reason why - too gusty, offshore, rocks/obstacles, sometimes underwater), its not the first time that I go out to a new spot to find stuff that I didn't expect."
I do a fair bit of 4WDing in the Vic high country and recently there has been a track rating system put in place in an attempt to inform drivers of the conditions they are likely to experience ( and to stop soft roader drivers have a crack at winch only tracks!!)- much the same as the snow ski slope rating introduced years ago eg green / blue/ black /double black -meaning easy to bloody dangerous!
Some spots I kite are 'green' spots in say an easterly so fine for beginners but in a SW it becomes an experienced kiters only 'double black' spot.
Has there ever been any thought to rate popular kite spots in Oz ? I'm not a member of KBV (whoops) but maybe someone in one of the kite associations might be in a position to comment?
Dying doing what you love still sucks - RIP buddy.
Just read your response waveslave - i agree but take a hook knife with you to cut the kite loose!!
I haven't read it all but it seems he was still hooked into the chicken loop.
Gotta wonder if quick release failed?
RIP
Always always carry a knife and practise using the thing, it will save your life someday.
Select to expand quotetightlines said..
I haven't read it all but it seems he was still hooked into the chicken loop.Gotta wonder if quick release failed?RIP
After a kite has completed a certain number of revolutions (during a deathlooping event) ... ^^^
a front line (centrelines) 'quick' release will be rendered useless,
due to all the twists in the lines.
I'm guessing 4 or 5 revs would be the limit for a release to still be workable.
The Industry should conduct an experiment.
Condolances to this blokes family and friends. Never a good thing.
I've never seen or experienced this, other than on youtube, so im sure the genuinely experienced guys can offer plenty to us inexperienced.
Are you genuinely likely to regain control after a couple of loops or is it far better to cut the the lines. Are the centre lines always going to be so tight the chicken loop (and then leash) wont release?
Select to expand quoteLambie said..
Just read your response waveslave - i agree but take a hook knife with you to cut the kite loose!!
A hook knife can't cut through a death-leash that's now acting like a tow-rope during a deathlooping event. ^^^
A hook knife might work fine for cutting flying lines ...
but these lines will be out of reach, along with your kite-bar.
What you need is a long blade knife, like a divers knife.
Be careful you don't stab yourself.
This is where the Cabrinha release is good, as generally no matter what situation you are in, you can always reach your chicken loop to release from the kite completely....
Having never seen a death loop I am wondering what happens. Does the kite not hit the water eventually? When I loop my kites repeatedly, each loop would bring it closer and closer to the water. I would fit in perhaps 3 loops before having to pull up lest I crash the kite.
It gets faster and faster and harder as the lines shorten, you really need to make a decision within the first 4 or 5 rotations what you are gonna do before it's too late. I have had kites death loop many times, especially the old first crossbows, best thing to do is pull your first safety to flag the kite straight away then if all else fails release the lot before you get tied up in it.
Damn that could be deadly in certain circumstances. Happens so fast though. id say that was well beyond 5 loops!
Mmm food for though.
Man that camera guy was a bloke of few words!! - I hear what you are saying waveslayer about a kiteknife but under those circumstances I would have knawed through the mainline with my teeth - struth!! ( seems the kiter was tangled with another kite - nothing like having another 4 to 5 lines around you to create confusion about trying to tame your kite or cut the sucker free)
Condolences. The first step in attempting rescue is assessing DANGER before a RESPONSE .A much as i think waveslave is a tosser for trolling the windsurfing forums he has a point with the "dont try and catch the kite" I dont understand why he got red.
Yeh I'm not sure red thumbs are the go here. This is a serious matter that needs input from everyone I suppose. People's experiences might help create some aecdotal or empirical information on what has worked and what hasn't.
It has never happen to me, but I'm sure it will one day. It used to happen a little on my 12m bandit but that kite was always up in lighter winds so wasn't a big issue for my safety. Easy enough to punch out and it only happened when launching. My kahoonas also did it now and then when launching. But nothing I could not very easily punch out. Man it
Must be scary in that situation. This new damn editor keeps pausing and not allowing me write anything else. Must know eppo is on the keyboard. Lol
I've been saying this for a while now, but, no amount of re-designed/improved safety release systems are going to fix this problem... to fix the problem you must fix the cause and 99% of the time the cause of an out of control looping kite is those silly big "end-winders" most brands have as stock now. YES those things that look like a golf club head on the end of bars. Like on Cab bars, they are a joke and they have caused many potentially fatal incidents I have witnessed first-hand. Usually a line or the handle pass leash gets caught up on the angles or bulk of the end winder and is enough to keep the kite looping until it hits something solid.
WAKE UP KITE BRANDS! Get your head out of your ass and address this issue. Winding lines around the ends of the bar isn't important and if you fixed this problem it WOULD save lives!
p.s.
The stupidest part about this is that "end-winders" are an even more useless kite-accessory than the old board-handle (It is very easy to wrap your lines around the middle of the bar only and they never get tangled this way or fall off the end of the bar and create a birds nest).
I have been working on bars with catch-free ends for years now and every time I suggest a brand produce it they say that not enough people would be interested because you can't wind your lines on the end... Maybe if more people knew that what they had on the end of the bar was a potential death-trap they would see the light 
.
Best advice, practice taking your harness off in a pickle (waist harness). One thing I got out of the instructor course I did and I feel safer knowing I can do it if I need to.
Select to expand quoteJJB said..
Best advice, practice taking your harness off in a pickle (waist harness). One thing I got out of the instructor course I did and I feel safer knowing I can do it if I need to.
Good luck doing that while getting the wind knocked out of you over and over again, flying through the air backwards... I have seen it happen to the Pros and they are no better than joe-blow at getting out of the situation. Fixing the cause is the only solution.
The full facts aren't completely clear. However, from what I have read on the forum link this guy was out kiting alone in unpredictable gusty conditions, wind being offshore & warned not to kite in that spot . In a situation like that you should at least be prepared for the worst case scenario. This also applies to anyone in a position to help out. If the QR fails the only option would be a tool that can rapidly be engaged to efficiently hack , slash & cut any line in front of you attached to an out of control kite. A divers knife with serrated edge, line cutter hook & sharp blade is the best option. Three tools in one. It can be strapped to your arm, leg or harness. Just a 3 inch blade would do the job. The line cutter tool some harnesses come with is just a back up. When the manufacturers safety systems fail, what other options are available when you have literally seconds before it spirals into a life or death situation?
I don't think you guys really have a clear grasp of such a situation. Most of the time there is no way you can release or even think of releasing, there is certainly no way you can grab a hook knife from some secure pouch and cut a line either, even if the line was close enough to you (which it most certainly isn't). What usually happens is you are being flung backwards, hitting the water very hard with each loop until your kite breaks or you or your kite hits something solid.
Just ask Kung-fu Pete from melbourne about what can happen... He is just one of the people I have seen this happen to (due to stupid bar ends) and he broke his back, nearly drowned and almost died... this is a 100KG+ experienced kiter and all round hard man we are talking about here. If this happens to you all you can do is pray.
Having experienced a death loop pulling me backwards at a rate of knots it scared me off unhooked moves for a while. I was partially under water being dragged like a rag doll and didn't get much chance to release anything (may be some pollution), luckily the kite hit the water after about 6 loops.
It bugs me the manufacturers put "efficiently packed away" high up the priority list for bar design. I want a bar designed to be functional, efficient, reliable and safe when I'm on the water not when it's packed away in the garage.
Here's a thread discussing it from a couple of years ago...
seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Kitemare-at-Pt-Walter/?page=1
Its not likely to come up with a way of preventing or stopping the looping of the kite. There are too many ways it can happen and it could even involve you being dragged by someone else's looping kite. There may be a possibility of the flagging line being enclosed in a sleeve which would allow it to flag freely after many loops, but there would be circumstances where that still leaves the rider in danger.
Then there is the primary release and the release on the kite leash, which are the standard current two stages to being safe. We have seen that they may not work if lines are tangled round part of the harness for example.
If all else fails, if there was a release on the harness which was easy to operate and released the harness, that should solve most of the problems if it is operated quickly enough. You could still have a problem of lines tangled around a limb or being unconscious.
The way harnesses are currently constructed, I would think that the harness would have to split at one side, although the ideal place would be down the centre of the back. In the case of a seat harness the release would have to include releasing one end of each of the leggings.
I don't know if this would apply too much to this situation but I thought I would just throw it out there:
I used to do a bit of freediving training, mainly for leisure but also to help with my confidence surfing bigger waves over reef. There were a few incidents of big hold-downs, and once or twice my legrope was caught on the reef and having that breath-hold training (although it didn't add a lot of time to my under-watertime in such a stressful scenario), contributed a lot to being able to keep a cool head and make rational decisions while underwater and in a bad place.
I was out kiting in the surf a few months ago, and dropped the kite in the water which then got hit by a wave. I got dragged underwater violently and I think if I wasn't so comfortable with my abilities underwater I would have panicked and not been able to make the right decisions.
Not saying it solves the problem by any means, I am just saying that some breath-hold training makes you a little bit more well equipped to deal with nightmares when they do occur.
Have had the "death loop" happen 3 times first time the kite would loop 3-4 times and hit the water then take off again and loop another 3-4 times ,hit the QR and the kite stopped on the water all good,second time kite was doing flat out loops tip wrapped towing me like a water skier just above the water ,never even touching it punched out the QR and kite kept going flat out on the safety so released the safety and bye bye kite,third time kite was bar wrapped again flat out spin punched out the QR and found safety tangled around spreader bar,had a couple of seconds of panic then released the spreader and harness and the whole rig took off ,was glad I'd just bought a new waist harness with a release on the spreader and could get it off easily.
I've had exactly what rowdy said happen to me. Was self landing on an island in new cal with a cabrinha switchblade maybe a 09/10 model . It had huge droopy cow horn winders on the bar end. Pulled the top front line in a metre. Kite didn't sit down, let it go....but a loop went round the end of the bar entangling my safety as well. It also could have been around my spreader hook.....Kite launched and rocketed to other side of window... Lofting me. Luckily I landed in water. Also luckily it was a kite loop pattern with a pause. Bar went nowhere when main safety released.. And secoundry. I ended up slowing it down and getting some slack with a handful of front lines and blindly untangled bar end. There is merit in waveslaves disdain with a safety leash ( its just unfortunately needed in some situations) and with rowdy's bar redesign. I've seen his homemade bars from a while back and they were very steamlined. I think if a company forgets about the kites and comes up with a great bar it would be a huge seller.
Condolences to the family of the Canadian accident victim 
/
I don't buy into rider experience when it comes to most deathlooping incidents, I think it is a simple case of mechanics that can occur even during perfect conditions. It is mostly a design issue, one that is not addressed by many kite companies. Back in the day they almost never occurred because kites were slow and the mechanical design of kites/bars/lines very simple. The bridles and pulleys concept has for sure advanced the safety of kiteboarding for many riders with it's awesome mechanical depower ability, but to me this is not an excuse to overlook the opposite effect of these designs - increased deathloop incidents. It needs consideration in kite design and this is a feature that is still not being considered by most companies in their design process. I really don't like to ride bridled kites because I have had some close friends nearly killed by them due to tip wrap and bar wrap/halfhitch death loops. It can happen to 5th line c kites too with bar half hitch or leash caught around bar ends when ejected as already mentioned but these kites eliminate dealing with wing tip wraps, pulley jams etc. Only ever seen it once but you can get a 5th line c kite wrapped up with 5th line turning it into a spinning helicopter. But in my experience I will never ride badly designed kite in high winds - stupid bar ends, bridles that could wrap even if kite bends/deforms, kites that deathloop if pulley bridle / jams/fails.
Some education
More frequent deathlooping kites I have noticed: Cabrinha, Fone, Naish I am sure there are more but i have multiple extreme direct examples with each of these, different countries with different distribution of brands will have different info.
You don't want chicken loops that are the perfect size (when unhooked) to get jammed in the spreader bar hook by accident - then you are fully in the ****.
Don't use bars/line without decent leader lines that are long and stiff enough to minimize the chance of leaderlines /kite lines - half hitching on the bar. If that happens when unhooked - you get taken on a deathloop while attached to leash. Fewer companies have safety lines that are attached to one line for potential full depower - which makes this more of an issue.
Make sure your kite in pumped up hard enough to minimize bridle tip wraps - although this is really only useful on kites with short bridles and not really a long term solution.
ery
Avoide bar and line systems with pieces sticking out that can jam/knot lines on them.
New practice. If lauching someones kite check no bridles are wrapped before letting go regardless of if pilot says launch. Example of this recently when someone at my local got launched 30ft onto their head unconscious and off to hospital..
Don't use adjustable bar that leaves a portion of end of bar for lines/leashes to wrap around on small bar width setting. This has led to deathloops after kite deactivated and still attached by leash.
Avoid long bridled kites where (do it with kite on ground/ on land) it is possible to stretch bridle over tip even if having to bend/deforming kite's leadingedge/struts etc...
Flight check your pullies /bridles condition.
Check and rehearse your safety systems activation, if you have new kite. While it is bad to quality control a safety system that may not release and sell it, I still believe in personal responsibility being waaay more important.
Dont' buy harnesses with leash attachments at the back - you cannot get to them when being violently dragged by a deathloop on a leash
There is the option to avoid bridles/pullies completely, but be wary that some (not all) of these kites have little depower and then you are into a whole new can of worms.
I've had several looping kite situations. but each time the kites haven't looped with much power, i've easily been able to A) release to safety and then B) completely release if the kite doesn't flag out.
My only advice i can give is have your safety on the front or side or the harness not the back. and when being dragged try and make yourself more streamlined in the water. that way yourl provide less resistance a move through the water with more control.
On the land if you sence a loop kite about to happen. dump to the safety instantly.
There is also something to be said for having new gear and not worn out stuff. make sure your bridles and lines aren't worn out. Thats when breakage and crazy looping can also occur.
