Entry level foils boards for beginners

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dafish said...
It is fun....and scary. Like learning all over. I was thrilled that yesterday I did my first gybes, both with foil down and board only turn, and better again with foil up and flying and riding toeside for the first time. Each day is a learning curve. I have had more salt water in my nose and ears than I have in years....and more body slam beatings. But it sure is worth it. I just finished shaping my Paipo a couple weeks ago and have given this board a nice run now and love it. I don't want to race, just want to cruise and have fun when the wind is light.....at least for now anyways.


Nice work on your board marko!!!

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Kamikuza said..

Yes not everyone is into racing and as foiling grows the racers will drop in percentage it doesn't mean us non racers need to accept over weight designs.

BS! Majority of foilers are racers thats unlikely to change, thats were the bulk of the R&D and the reason foiles are now back in the spot light, the cruisers couldnt get it done so the racing crew sorted it. but not every racer races everyday, they cruise and enjoy their foils with fellow "Racers"crusing and training, exploring. you could too and not need to race.
Not everybody is anti racing, if you dont race thats no threat to them or you. Is self confidence so low you to bash something you do do.
Every poster here pimping his preference harder than a $1 mexican hooker on fight night. We get it you like what you like. But no need to have a public wet dream over your chosen foil at every possible opportunity. Like what you like and let others like what they like. Unless you racing, and even so a decent used foil are selling like hotcakes for well under 1500. if you cant find that deal its clearly cos you keep pissing off racers who dont want to sell to you. most brands now into their 3year so lessons learnt. there some brands that are still making the mistake in their first year. see which brands are still on buy/sell after months and which last only a day or 2.

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Dahh said..

Kamikuza said..

Yes not everyone is into racing and as foiling grows the racers will drop in percentage it doesn't mean us non racers need to accept over weight designs.

BS! Majority of foilers are racers thats unlikely to change, thats were the bulk of the R&D and the reason foiles are now back in the spot light, the cruisers couldnt get it done so the racing crew sorted it. but not every racer races everyday, they cruise and enjoy their foils with fellow "Racers"crusing and training, exploring. you could too and not need to race.
Not everybody is anti racing, if you dont race thats no threat to them or you. Is self confidence so low you to bash something you do do.
Every poster here pimping his preference harder than a $1 mexican hooker on fight night. We get it you like what you like. But no need to have a public wet dream over your chosen foil at every possible opportunity. Like what you like and let others like what they like. Unless you racing, and even so a decent used foil are selling like hotcakes for well under 1500. if you cant find that deal its clearly cos you keep pissing off racers who dont want to sell to you. most brands now into their 3year so lessons learnt. there some brands that are still making the mistake in their first year. see which brands are still on buy/sell after months and which last only a day or 2.

When you say "majority are racers", do you actually mean, "majority are amateur enthusiast racers"...? Cos this reminds me of guys justifying owning 180hp R1's, GSXR's etc and only ever doing an occasional trackday

The Euros have been at this longer than 3 years...

Kami, I have noticed on KF the weight of a Zeeko Alloy is claimed to be 3.8kg and this is pretty much std area for these types of Alloy foils. You do notice the extra weight v's a Carbon foil but not enough to spend the extra dollars for many free riders.

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coxy31 said..

dafish said...
It's all about having fun...regardless. Today was hardly 10 knot, 84 kilos, 10 mt Reo and charging up wind. The dolphin boats were out in numbers. Really beautiful day.

Just got in from my 5th go foiling ever in the same 10knots dafish foiled in today, after 15years kiting I finally have the same Stoke and passion back that I had the first few years I kited..
My 2nd hand 1200dollar spotz2 is worth every penny, hell it worth every penny at retail..
A while off yet but Bring on my first race

Pretty awesome Brad! Your board build is pretty sweet, and the fact that you are already going so good after 5 sessions means you will be racing in no time! Today was a perfect day to showcase how cool foiling can be.

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coxy31 said..

dachopper said...
From the prices you are quoting, it's obvious that you are using some kind of pre-manufactured carbon weave - pre pregnated or not, that is why your cost is 10 times my cost. The key is that you are using boat building techniques to build a foil - and I am using rocket and missile building techniques to build mine :)

I already posted my supplier on this forum.

I buy from www.sollercomposites.com/

They STILL have my carbon for sale at $15 a pound, which is 1700 feet, of which I used about 900 feet to laminate each of the foils, so 1 x $15 roll was enough to make both the mast and the Lifting foil - with my technique. Maybe your weave would be cheaper on here than your supplier, but until you improve your method of production - you will not be able to touch the price point that I have developed - actually I made the technique for something else but it's useful for a lot of things, hence why I gave the foil a crack.

The manufacturing technique I use - let's me pick how many layers and what ever winding angle I like with the carbon, it ends up vastly stronger and lighter than using a pre=manufactured cross weave with or without vaccum bagging. :)

Im pretty sure I know your technique mate, I done most of my time building composite spars and as far as I know some of those sections I spun all those years ago are still up in orbit ??
Anyway I look forward to seeing your finished product and good on you for giving it a crack..
I myself bit the bullet and bought a 2nd hand spotz 2 and put a box in an old north rocket fish all up she owes me 1200 bucks, cheap in the sceam of things I reckon considering the RND and tooling put into the things!!I could of sat in shed ghining around for weeks building something that probably wouldn't of been ideal or worked at all for 500bucks but instead spent a little and was out foiling a few days later (4th day down and still out of control but up on foil and getting it more sorted every time I use it)

The Finish of the mast turned out Dam good straight off the vacuum !

Had to fiddle with the squeege level and the delivery head a little but ended up ok - need to mod the the machine head now and add another roller !

Price and design are attractive (but not the green) but I'm waiting for reviews.

I've been a long time stalker on Seabreeze (and I've followed this thread from when it was started), but this is my first post...

Yesterday, I received a TKF Manta (one of the boards mentioned in the original post), and I've had two sessions on it now. Since I've read this thread dozens of times I thought I would chip in with my thoughts on this foil, cover off a couple of points I've seen debated (weight, galvanic corrosion) and also mention some things I've found elsewhere that haven't been discussed on this thread, but would benefit a beginner foiler (the original focus of the thread).

Firstly, I initially went down the DIY path and built a foil. It actually went pretty well, flew straight, more than enough lift (actually a bit too much); however, it only lasted 1/2 a session before the connection points started to give way. The wings and fuselage were all strong enough, but I underestimated the force that was put on the connection points and they just didn't hold. I tried a second time to glue the everything in place (I got lazy and didn't glass them in when I should have) and the second attempt on the water led to pretty much the same outcome. The DIY project actually took me about 6-7 months (limited free time and not really knowing what I was doing) and probably cost well over $1000 (bought more supplies than I needed, bought a drill press, belt sander, clamps, etc, etc...).

Bottom line - it was an awesome learning experience, but unless you have done a decent amount of composite work and have all the gear already - probably don't expect that your first attempt will be a 100% success. Attempt 2 or 3 are probably going to be the ones that actually work... or you might just end up throwing in the towel and buy an already proven one like I did...





DIY Attempt - Looks the part and worked - just not for that long before falling apart...


As mentioned, I had only 2 sessions on the DIY version. I initially had put a 1 degree angle on the stabiliser (as I had seen recommended on a number of forums); however, that combined with my oversized, high lift box wing, it was a complete disaster... there was no porpoising, it was absolute ejection from the water at any speed. I trimmed it with washers to be very slightly negative and that let me keep the board down for the most part.

Still, putting the weight back led to the porpoising which was a complete PITA and was the rest of that session and the next one (first session 35 minutes, second one even less).

Reason for getting the TKF over a Carbon foil

I had been looking at a number of second-hand Carbon foils that were pretty good prices. The main issue I had was that my local spot is super shallow, and the guys that have tried foils here had said how much of a PITA getting to deep enough water is. Especially when you are trying to learn and the wind is bringing you directly back into the shallows. When you are learning, the porpoising that I'd been told would continue for many sessions meant there was going to be a significant amount of time where foiling was going to suck... I started to look for anything on shallow water foiling and schools that were teaching people to foil.

Originally, I found this:



which is a Kite School that is teaching people to foil on shortened masts. This has the effect that breaching (especially on the very short mast) doesn't lead to the massive crash which is inevitable with the full-length mast. Porpoising on the really short mast is nothing more than an annoyance and you can focus on shifting your weight to keep the board down. Interesting that Slingshot are now doing the different mast sizes directly out of the factory:





I had used a TKF mast on my DIY foil (I got their factory seconds mast for $50 USD - you can still get them on their site), so when the Manta came up second hand, it made perfect sense that I could get a decent foil, board, and have the three mast lengths which would accelerate the learning and allow shallow water riding... I cut my old mast as suggested in the above video, tapped the holes for the mounting bolts and I now have three mast lengths to play with:





So far, I have only taken out the short mast, and the experience was absolutely worlds apart from my first sessions on the DIY board. I could start safely in waist deep water, and the inevitable breaching/porpoising was reduced to an irritation - not a spectacular crash. When I have come off, I am still typically in much shallower water than I could restart with the full length mast attached, and I can stand up, have a break and continue when I'm ready.


I've had around 2.5 hours on the board and can quite easily do 200m+ runs without coming off. That's not on the foil the whole time (or even the majority of the time), but it is time that I'm playing with my balance, speed and interaction with the kite - and not sitting in the water after a big breach stack or trying to get back out to deeper water...


I'm a big fan of the short mast for learning, and it's something I think a beginner (the original focus of this thread) would do well to consider. This wouldn't be an option with the carbon masts, but is a simple and cheap (it cost me an extra $50USD + postage...) way to accelerate the learning curve with the aluminium masts.





Board with the short training mast

Review of the Manta

I won't do a full review as there are decent reviews earlier in this thread. I am more than happy with everything - the build quality appears really good - everything seems 100% solid - connection points are all excellent with no hint of give. The profile of the front of the board really does seem to help with softening the blow when you come down from a breach (even though I'm not coming down very far yet...), and there is plenty of volume in the board to let you stay on the surface while getting up to flying speed (it was only around 9 knots today, but the board would easily allow me to get on top of the water and moving before the wing started to kick in).


Weight


This is something that has been debated a bit in this topic... I haven't measured the weight, but there is obviously an amount of heft there (the board is heavier than its main competitors I think, but it also has significantly more volume). I was actually surprised how light the fuselage is, and the weight of the wings is fairly negligible. It would definitely be heavier than my race board (which is carbon), but it is much, much easier to carry around than the race board. The reason it is much easier to carry is the slot for the adjustable mounting box being in a perfect position to use as a handle... when you grab it from there it is right in the middle of the boards center of gravity and the weight is simply not an issue. The first time I carried it to the water I carried it like the race board (loop arm under the mast) and that sucked and felt heavy and awkward - but as soon as I found the massive handle in the centre of the board - no more issues.


Once in the water, I can't see the weight being of any real significance. Obviously, if you are wanting to race, weight would become a factor, but that's not something I'm considering...


Galvanic Corrosion

Another thing I've seen in this thread (and was concerned about after seeing it bought up) was referring to Galvanic corrosion between the Aluminium components and Stainless bolts, and also between the Aluminium and Carbon components. From a few people I've spoken to that deal with that type of thing (ocean going boat maintenance, corrosive environments like mine sites), as long as you use something like TefGel (as suggested in earlier posts AND in the manual for the Manta) you should have very little to worry about with the stainless to Aluminium connection - especially if you maintain it. As for the Carbon/Aluminum corrosion (I'm considering getting a Carbon speed wing down the track) that is a non-issue with the Manta, as the Carbon is not in contact with the Aluminium at all. All the wings come with Nylon spacers and never make contact with the Aluminium. The stainless bolts touching the Carbon wing - exactly the same issue on the Carbon foils and I don't see anyone too concerned about that...


Sorry... that got a bit out of hand and was much bigger than I anticipated. In summary: I like the board - build quality seems good - weight not that much of an issue for me - the short mast makes learning a MUCH better experience (still not easy by any stretch, but much better than the big stacks). With the short mast I was learning in waist deep water and doing 100m-200m runs day one (not necessarily on the foil, but not with my ass in the water either). Helmet is a very good recommendation - I've had 2 stacks where I've gone in front of the board (because all your weight is forward) and the board has caught up and hit me in the back of the head... They wouldn't have been too bad, but it was also under 10 knots, so I can see things getting much worse at higher speeds (I was wearing a helmet, so it was a non-issue for me).


Anyway. Shutting up. Hopefully, someone gets something out of that and thanks for all your contributions so far...

Fully assembled foil without the board.

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Gorgo said..
Fully assembled foil without the board.

Woukd the "combined weight" quoted on the Slingshot page include the board...?

I'm trying to understand how $899 USD = $1949 AUS ?

Faaark. Is that for real considering being generous and including freight wouldn't be over $1650-$1700.

I think I need to sip a muggacino and think about that...

Hey Gorgo, what size kite in what winds are you talking? 10 meter is about the go for me, occasionally I put up a 14 in 8 knots or so but tend to get over powered once it hits 14 knots. Are you using Tef Gel on your parts? Bit expensive but one little tube will last a lifetime.

I am using my 7m which has always been my "go to" kite. Anything in 18knots up to 25+. I found that going out in strong winds is ***much*** easier than you would think (also we get lots of strong winds and if the wind is blowing then I am foiling). The kite rarely crashes. If it does it relaunches instantly. The small kite is easily depowered. The foil just passes through waves as though they are not there (it's awesome to come off the board, from the top of the mast, from the top of a big wave!!!). Of course, there are some get offs but overall it's much easier than light wind foiling.

I have no trouble at all going upwind. Going downwind takes some care. I either go to fast and panic, or go to fast and let the front foil out of the water. The most effective and fun downwind is to do a series of gentle carve turns and do a bit of a pumping sort of dolphin ride where I let the foil go up and down and occasionally the board touches the water. It's not very efficient but it is loads of fun and I can do 500m runs without falling off.

To seal the mast:
- clean and dry the inside of the foil. I dragged cotton wool soaked in metho through.
- insert some foam into each opening about 15-20mm down. (The foam makes a backing surface for when you inject the silicone). 15-20 mm is the maximum thickness of silicone that will cure according to the data sheet.
- inject silicone. (I used Sikaflex Marine) If it's down the screw holes then poke it down with a stick (I used a cotton bud). I also put some soapy water on the screws and screwed them in to their normal extent.
- smooth it all down with a soapy finger
- let it all cure for about a week
- I used a drill to remove any excess from the screw holes when it had cured (with a depth limiter to stop it drilling down too far)
- peel off any excess from the sides

I have been putting weak Loctite on the threads and giving the aluminium parts a wash from time to time. It's all holding up ok so far. I carry the foil fully disassembled in my car with everything in the little bags. It only takes 2-3 minutes longer to fully assemble and it makes transport, storage and maintenance so much easier.

Once I upgrade to a more performant foil, one of my prime requirements will be the ability to quickly and easily break it down and storage bags for keeping it in the car.

I have done a few sessions where I do an hour of foiling then remove the foil and install the fins and go wave riding. It's quite fun, but I think I would prefer to just have a second dedicated board for wave kiting.

I have bumped the wings on the reef once and that put a fair number of scratches on them. I'll fix them some time. To avoid that, I have moved up the coast to a more sandy bottom beach. I walk out to the last sand bar then sit in water start position with the board edged so the foil is sitting out horizontally. I then do a slow bum-drag in that position out past the bar where I can water start and ride away. Initially I was riding down, but now I go straight up onto the foil and ride away. I actually have to be careful to not cut too far upwind so that I don't run into a bommie in the middle of the bay. I start half way down the bay (between two groynes) because the sand bars angle back to the beach. If I start too far upwind I have to traverse all the bars before I can get up and riding.

PS. If you're taking it apart every session, would you need to worry about Tefgel-ing it?

I use blue Loctite on the mast screws...

So finished my $200 carbon foil setup, and bodged together the smallest board I thought would work.

The whole process was a bit if an experiment with filament winders, wood mandrels, hollow carbon tubes. Expanding foam and plywood.

Wingspan 40cm, chord 15cm. Great maneuverability, pivots on the spot due to larger chord. Going to make some winglets during the week, and see if they add much. Rammed the bottom a few times, and everything held which was good ! Rail shape slices through chop ok, I was able to stay up without footsteps. Feels like a faster foil, but the shape has more drag than most fast foils, meaning you have to ask for death speed, rather than it giving itself to you with wrong kite placement.

Have plans to make a production type mast and fuselage, which will shrink the width to under say 12 mm for the mast, and 15-20 width for the fuselage, although 12-15 would be do-able also.

My mate who has never foiled before had a crack, and some nice little 20-30 meter seshes, before ventilation of the main foil.


Think I can do something special with the mast, that will benefit shallow water starts too :)