99% of kiters (who can self-launch) taught themselves to self-launch.
They taught themselves by viewing vids, watching local crew and asking mates for tips.
In other words, they took a risk and experimented.
Self-Launching ...one of the most dangerous events in kitesurfing,,,
is left to your own devices when it comes to learning the skills.
lol.
There's no professional instruction.
So the whole "get lessons" message is a total farce.
Select to expand quotewaveslave said...cbulota said..
We taught thousands of students to self-retrieve their kites using the safety system, never had issues and this is always done in the very first lesson.
How many newbies have you taught to selfie launch on their very first lesson ?
None .. I thought so.
lol.
Zip it wave slave all you have done on this topic is bag people if you don't have anything constructive to say don't say anything at all .
Select to expand quotecbulota said...KiteDesigner said..
I do Kite lessons, IKO trained and have organized a bunch of IKO training sessions that got about 20 people IKO qualified.
IKO say DON'T teach your students how to self land and self launch. Here are the reasons:
1) If a student does not have some one to help launch and land, they should not be kiting with out help, its dangerous.
2) Nearly ALL (80% or more) accidents that end in pain and hurt happen on the beach when self launching and self landing.
3) A student is more likely to f#ck up line attachments and self launch with lines attached wrong.
4) Even after 10 years of kiting, a self launch or land can still go bad for a number of reasons.
The above makes sense, but what happens when there is no option to self land or launch? I tell students to never self launch or land and explain why, and then show them how I self land and launch and how easy it is to f#ck it up, and say always get some one to launch and catch your kite, for safety reasons. So the know how to do it, and know they should not do it.
I agree about self-launching, however most people's view of Self-landing typically don't involve using safety systems, which makes this as dangerous as self-launching of course!
I can't see how can someone get hurt from using their safety system to self-land and that's the problem, no students are being showed how to do this, therefore when they get in trouble or simply when there is absolutely no one to help (i.e drifting far downwind away from all other kiters at the spot) how would you suggest they recover their kite once back on the shore?
I completely agree with Plummet's comment, If you don't teach your student to release the safety system and self-retrieve their kite after it's flagged on the beach, you simply can't say they are independent, which means they would be forced to have someone follow them everywhere they go after they launch the kite ??!! More IKO nonsense if you ask me.
We taught thousands of students to self-retrieve their kites using the safety system, never had issues and this is always done in the very first lesson, on the beach, after the first few minutes of flying.
If things still go wrong with your self-landing after 10 years of kiting, perhaps it's time to re-think your method and start using your safety system ?
Nathe said..
Self launching and landing both take good kite control... Damn right you should know how to do both there isn't always someone around to help you out
You don't need any kite control skills to release your safety system and retrieve your kite all by yourself.
Christian
Who pulls the safety to self land . I only pull the safety if I feel it's getting out of control not to land it every time by flagging it out
Select to expand quotewaveslave said...
Read the above post ^^^^^
cheesedick.
How about reading the topic in in the newbie section first . This is why I started the topic .
Kite schools can start a course for launching and landing once kiters are advanced enough .
This is good for our sport and a way for kite schools to make more money .
Select to expand quotestuntnaz said..waveslave said...
Read the above post ^^^^^
cheesedick.
How about reading the topic in in the newbie section first . This is why I started the topic .
Kite schools can start a course for launching and landing once kiters are advanced enough .
This is good for our sport and a way for kite schools to make more money .
I read your post in the newbie forum. So what ?
Kite Schools don't want to teach self-launching skills.
It's called selective instruction.
They teach what they want to teach.
I'd do the same if I was in the biz.
Anyway, the kite co's don't recommend the self-launching of their product.
Why would they ?
Some brands even state it in their manuals to never self-launch.
Select to expand quotewaveslave said...stuntnaz said..waveslave said...
Read the above post ^^^^^
cheesedick.
How about reading the topic in in the newbie section first . This is why I started the topic .
Kite schools can start a course for launching and landing once kiters are advanced enough .
This is good for our sport and a way for kite schools to make more money .
I read your post in the newbie forum. So what ?
Kite Schools don't want to teach self-launching skills.
It's called selective instruction.
They teach what they want to teach.
I'd do the same if I was in the biz.
Anyway, the kite co's don't recommend the self-launching of their product.
Why would they ?
Some brands even state it in their manuals to never self-launch.
One of the first things students learn is the 3 parts of releasing a kite
1) let go of the bar
2) use the kite saftey release
3) If your still in trouble release the saftey leash
this is not self landing
I was on the water watching some one release there CAB kite in 20 knots for a self landing, the kite smashed the sand, a long pulley bridle got stuck around the wing tip, kite bow tied and the kite went into a death loop dragging the guy down the beach towards other people.
There where other kiters around who could have cached his kite for him, why that idiot did not get some one to land his kite i don not know...
Point is, getting some one to launch and land your kite is a better choice, regardless of your skill level, things can go bad self landing or self launching or pulling a release self landing some times...
Kiters should know how to self land and launch, beginners and experts should know the risks doing it.
I sort of understand why kite schools don't want to teach self launching and landing. Newbies come along and just want to learn to go kiteboarding and lessons are expensive. They will get bored with the kite skills and safety bit and just want to learn enough to get going. I get that.
But, I am old school and started kiting in 1999. We all taught ourselves. The first thing you had to learn was to self launch and land. If you didn't do that you didn't go kiting at all. It wasn't hard then. It's still not hard now. I don't understand the "It's an advanced skill. You have to kite for a couple of years before you can learn that." thing.
Select to expand quoteKiteDesigner said..
One of the first things students learn is the 3 parts of releasing a kite
1) let go of the bar
...
Clearly this lesson is not sticking. 9 out of 10 beginner problems are caused by pulling in the bar with a death grip.
I luv teather launch and land.
You can walk your kite to the right spot
You can check that all your lines are correct and not crossed
You can safely land yourself
No sliding kite across the shells or rocks or whatever
No guesswork.
Select to expand quotefingerbone said..
I luv teather launch and land.
You can walk your kite to the right spot
You can check that all your lines are correct and not crossed
You can safely land yourself
No sliding kite across the shells or rocks or whatever
No guesswork.
Teather launch and land is good. But it doesn't work in some situations.
EG when the wind is gusty and shifty.
When the wind is too light
most C kites
high aspect kites are difficult.
When theres not enough beach.
Too much crud on the beach.
Select to expand quotefingerbone said..
I luv teather launch and land.
You can walk your kite to the right spot
You can check that all your lines are correct and not crossed
You can safely land yourself
No sliding kite across the shells or rocks or whatever
No guesswork.
+1. especially that You can check that all your lines (and bridals) are correct and not crossed .
I've only ever had 2 times when the tethered launch has gone awry. One self inflicted and the second on the beach at gero in 30 knots nuking . Big wide beach = O.K.
On the other hand I have had people launch and decide to throw the kite into the air without me signalling that I was ready.. (several times) .and the bridal was looped through itself when they launched unable to be seen by me (this has happened twice.)
I have also improvised a tethered landing by taking off the safety and looping it around a tree as the tether after a unplanned downwind expedition....(not recommended but desperate times demanded it)
When it comes to watching complete nongs having their clueless friends try to assist HOT launch them (and refuse to listen to any offered advice) I think getting a learner to look at how a kite will sit on the edge of the window while tethered and then how the assisted launcher should be positioned would be beneficial. Some people who turn up at our local to kite have simply no idea.
It took me about 1 season to get the nerve up to start self launching/landing. Involved lots of watching people, talking to people and watching vids. Started in very light conditions and took it from there, i would assume a lot of people learnt the same way. I'm still pretty paranoid about it, i'll always try to launch from the water.
Self landing took a little longer, i'd usually just pull my release with the kite near the sand and walk the lines. Eventually i learned how stupidly easy Ozones are to land by unhooking and pulling the leash. I still prefer that method to tethering, not much that can really go wrong.
I don't think its a schools responsibility to teach self launching / landing, It's not something beginners need to be worrying about and not something they should be trying off the bat. I consider it an intermediate skill that should be learnt about the same time as other intermediate skills. Schools should teach you how to use your safety and safely walk the lines to the kite.
At least it's a lot easier than it used to be, i have unpleasant memories of self launching my Naish X2.
I do what I call 'the fly kick hot launch'.... it's only suitable for c-kites though. I recommend it for all begginers, as its a great way to learn how to launch properly!1- start with kite LE down pointing windward.
2- hook in and attach leash.
3- run at kite at full speed
4- hop skip jump then FLY KICK that LE up and downwind....
5- wait for it.........
6- BOOM!!****
7- you've launched!.... but then again, im an alcoholic and I ride 2009 model kites.... do you think my launching method is why nobody lets me demo or fly their kites??
Select to expand quoteKiteDesigner said..
One of the first things students learn is the 3 parts of releasing a kite
1) let go of the bar
2) use the kite saftey release
3) If your still in trouble release the saftey leash
this is not self landing
What do you teach your students to do after releasing the chicken loop safety ? Do nothing?
Here's a very common situation: How would you suggest a newbie who drifted too far downwind outside the kite zone and ends up back to shore (kite flying or down on the beach/shallow water) is supposed to safely end his session with no other kiters around ?? Walk back upwind? what if too tired, what if the kite can't be relaunched and is being washed and tumbled into the small shore breaks? These are things I witness every single day at my local kite spot.
This is exactly what's wrong with kite instruction, the inability to think outside the box and realize that no newbie can be considered independent until they have the ability to use their safety system to flag their kite and recover it. It's such a simple an effective thing to do especially on modern safety systems which are almost all using a single front line flagging system these days.
Almost every IKO instructors that I've watched teach or talked to consider they do a good job teaching the self-rescue by doing a simple demo without allowing the student to practice it in deep water? Furthermore their students have never been asked to deploy the safety system while the kite is flying and recover their kites afterwards. Yet, just like you they brag about their IKO status without actually having the ability to produce safe and genuinely independent students...
Self-landing doesn't have to be dangerous if you are smart and make use of the safety system that you have just in case it doesn't go as planned so you don't get dragged violently down the beach.
You may or may not seen my self-landing videos before, so here they are. Careful, you might learn something new and safe
Select to expand quotePlummet said...fingerbone said..
I luv teather launch and land.
You can walk your kite to the right spot
You can check that all your lines are correct and not crossed
You can safely land yourself
No sliding kite across the shells or rocks or whatever
No guesswork.
Teather launch and land is good. But it doesn't work in some situations.
EG when the wind is gusty and shifty.
When the wind is too light
most C kites
high aspect kites are difficult.
When theres not enough beach.
Too much crud on the beach.
Rather my kite was on the end of a tether than me in shifting and gusty winds, you can control this with a pinned upwind line
Le kites are easier to launch in minimal / light winds on a tether than self launch/ trim your kite
C kites are fine / can get a bit twitchy in their upper end though, again pinned technique
Rode edgesand demo,d plenty of high aspect kites , hand on heart there the most stable and sit put
Not enough beach, sit it on the shoreline
Too much crud, possibly the most common reason for a tethered launch, 100% prefer to tether launch than self on a shidty beach, for damage and tangle reasons
The proof, more kiters are injured or killed during a self launch or land than tethered
If you carnt tether at said spot should you really be self launch/land there
There's no heroics in self launch landing
IMHO tether1st, option ,assisted 2nd , rpm assistedlaunch 3rd
self launch/land last
Select to expand quotecauncy said..Plummet said...fingerbone said..
I luv teather launch and land.
You can walk your kite to the right spot
You can check that all your lines are correct and not crossed
You can safely land yourself
No sliding kite across the shells or rocks or whatever
No guesswork.
Teather launch and land is good. But it doesn't work in some situations.
EG when the wind is gusty and shifty.
When the wind is too light
most C kites
high aspect kites are difficult.
When theres not enough beach.
Too much crud on the beach.
Rather my kite was on the end of a tether than me in shifting and gusty winds, you can control this with a pinned upwind line
Le kites are easier to launch in minimal / light winds on a tether than self launch/ trim your kite
C kites are fine / can get a bit twitchy in their upper end though, again pinned technique
Rode edgesand demo,d plenty of high aspect kites , hand on heart there the most stable and sit put
Not enough beach, sit it on the shoreline
Too much crud, possibly the most common reason for a tethered launch, 100% prefer to tether launch than self on a shidty beach, for damage and tangle reasons
The proof, more kiters are injured or killed during a self launch or land than tethered
If you carnt tether at said spot should you really be self launch/land there
There's no heroics in self launch landing
IMHO tether1st, option ,assisted 2nd , rpm assistedlaunch 3rd self launch/land last
We have a launch spots behind builds/trees and another direct down wind from a cliff with a massive wind shadow. The wind is simply too disturbed/ swirling to teather. Believe me I've tried. But you can easily self launch in the puffs of wind. Once the kite is in the air and above tree/building/cliff line then it gets clean wind.
So back to my initial statement. Teather launch is good. But does not always work.
PS If I didn't kite a location because you couldn't teather it id miss out on kiting some of the best waves on the planet. Stuff that ****.
Once you have the handle of the jandle drag launch is easy as pie.
Cbulota, what do you recommend for a kite set up to flag to one line, say on the 3 o'clock side, when you drift downwind somewhere where there is no room to land that side?
Put it down in the water with the waves or attempt to get up to a reasonably high V holding both lines, then grab the top line.
Select to expand quoteKiteDesigner said..
I was on the water watching some one release there CAB kite in 20 knots for a self landing, the kite smashed the sand, a long pulley bridle got stuck around the wing tip, kite bow tied and the kite went into a death loop dragging the guy down the beach towards other people.
There where other kiters around who could have cached his kite for him, why that idiot did not get some one to land his kite i don not know...
He couldn't find a tree and had no backup strategy
Releasing the safety and going back up the lines to the kite really needs to be taught on day one as otherwise the learner is just strapped into this dangerous flying contraption with no way of shutting it off without assistance
Are people getting confused? Pulling the safety and doing a self landing are 2 different things
Select to expand quoteChris_M said...
Are people getting confused? Pulling the safety and doing a self landing are 2 different things
Exactly.
Yes I wasn't saying they were the same thing I was just saying that being able to effectively release and retrieve the kite is one of the very first things people need to be able to do
Self landing properly is something that would come later and I can imagine a lot of kite schools wouldn't teach it, if they weren't teaching how to operate the safety and retrieve the kite this would be dangerously negligent
Select to expand quotefingerbone said...
I luv teather launch and land.
You can walk your kite to the right spot
You can check that all your lines are correct and not crossed
You can safely land yourself
No sliding kite across the shells or rocks or whatever
No guesswork.
Yea i didnt say it was always possible. But when it is I prefer it to many other methods
Kiting is not a one size fits all learning experience.
I self launched the first day I learned to kite. But this is not great for everyone. Some are more timid, and more likely to screw it up. Its good to practice early launching and putting it down.
If you live in a city you'll rarely need to self launch or drop, in the country it'll be the opposite.
Select to expand quoteJacobMatan said..
Yes I wasn't saying they were the same thing I was just saying that being able to effectively release and retrieve the kite is one of the very first things people need to be able to do
Self landing properly is something that would come later and I can imagine a lot of kite schools wouldn't teach it, if they weren't teaching how to operate the safety and retrieve the kite this would be dangerously negligent
Instructors do teach students how to pull the safety and retrieve the kite - at least any IKO instructor is expected to, it's in the syllabus.
I'm still not sure what this has to do with this thread though. Did you do lessons and not get shown how to use your safety or something? Because if that's the case, that's pretty bad
Select to expand quoteChris_M said...JacobMatan said..
Yes I wasn't saying they were the same thing I was just saying that being able to effectively release and retrieve the kite is one of the very first things people need to be able to do
Self landing properly is something that would come later and I can imagine a lot of kite schools wouldn't teach it, if they weren't teaching how to operate the safety and retrieve the kite this would be dangerously negligent
Instructors do teach students how to pull the safety and retrieve the kite - at least any IKO instructor is expected to, it's in the syllabus.
I'm still not sure what this has to do with this thread though. Did you do lessons and not get shown how to use your safety or something? Because if that's the case, that's pretty bad
flagging the kite , pulling the safety is not part of this topic . But once you start to self launching your kite it is important to have one hand ready to pull your safety/flag kite because in the process of self launching you are prone to having one of your lines catching your wing tip and sending your kite into a death looping situation.
This is why I believe proper training is needed .
There is another way to self land.
I do it all the time, but have never seen anyone else.
I've done the other types of self land like the technique in the AKS video and it is ok in light winds, but not in strong. I've done the tie on technique too, but the kite bounces around worryingly and you know if something does give, it is going to be really really ugly with pegs or poles flying around.
Here is my technique. It has always been 100% reliable for me. (I've done it on few different 4 line kites. Switchblade, methods, Reos, and element that I can remember). (try it in a light wind first to get comfortable)
1. Drop the to the edge of the window and let it settle on the sand. It will bounce back in the window and settle.
2. grab the front lines and unhook.
3. As the kite bounces down for a second, run up wind.
4. The leading edge should hook gently into the sand and the kite will stay where it is. Sometimes you get the timing wrong and the kite flys up wind with you. No drama, just try again.
5. As you run directly upwind the kite will roll on do its back with its legs in the air. (looks like a u shape. leading edge pointing towards you and directly up wind.)
6. The kite is now totally depowered with no force whatsoever on the lines. Now disconnect your safety and go hand over hand up the lines towards the kite. Don't let go. (You can keep the bar connected, but relaunching or packing up is harder. You can put the lines around your hook on those really windy days if you are feeling cautious, but there really is no need I think)
7. Grab the kite and flip it over.
8. You can reverse the process at any point. (I typically just do a normal self launch, but I am confident you could launch by doing the above steps backwards).
This technique has simply never gone wrong for my. But you do need to run up wind at step 3-4. At least until the kite sort of hooks in, then the wind pushes it into the beach and it is fine.
I have been doing this for about 3 years now. Never seen anyone else do it. It wouldn't be great on a beach with sharp rocks, but I don't reckon any self land/launch would be. You could expect a bit more wear on the top of the centre strut using this technique, but that bit never wears out normally (unlike the leading edge that gets hammered in other techniques) and none of my kites show any extra wear. When the kite is lying upside down it does move around a little, but I think there is no force on it, so no wear.
Anyway, I would love some feedback from anyone who uses this technique or who has tried it. I would like to see more kiters use it, as it really seems to me to be the safest technique available.
Having said all that.... if someone can tell me a way to get the missus to catch my kite.......
