Truth is a lot of companies kite designs are fairly stagnant. They change stuff just so it looks like they did something, often times making the product worse than previous years...
From where I sit after demoing a lot of kites this year, there is merit in this argument but not the whole truth. I would say I am still noticing improvements, albeit less extensive than say from 2009 to 2011, but nuances that are noticeable if you've been around a while. But yeh still so many decent kites from 2, 3 years ago that are still awesome and as Cauncy said most of us really have only scratch the surface of. Which is great news for those who still ride these kites and those that want to buy cheaper kites to, that are safe and perform well.
Select to expand quoteWOK said..
Well pointed out Steve.
PS: season hasn't even started yet Eppo, what was the rush???
Haha, that's so Eppo can change them all halfway through the season :)
Ha ha dave, the jumping dick award goes to.....
Anyhow didn't know the season had stopped, been out two or three times a week anyhow.
Select to expand quoteGorgo said..
I read the interview with Roberto Ricci in Kiteworld issue 54. I go the impression that he was happy to continuously change and refine things during the lifecycle of the product. He did not need to wait for a new product range to put improvements in place.
Ozone make to order but the design and features of the products remain constant during the life of the product range.
Hi Gorgo
Unless a brand owns its own factory, they all produce in batches of at least 1000 kites (maybe 500 for very small brands), the OEM factories will not accept orders for smaller quantities, and under 1000 kites they charge a premium to build them too, so its also uneconomical and uncompetitive.
Unless a brand uses the JIT (Just In Time business model), and none do other than Ozone, as far as I know, then they cannot make running changes in the same way that Ozone can. Recently a new one pump valve was signed off from the rigorous testing program and every kite made from that day onwards will have this valve, including all still current 2013 models (C4, Edge, Zephyr), this type of instant change is just not possible with batch production methods.
This has to be the most interesting & thought provoking threads on SB in years IMO.
The explanation about Ozone's manufacturing processes certainly provides food for thought about future purchases. Thanks for the info Steve.
It would be really interesting to have a comparison table of as many different manufacturers as possible to see their respective processes.
Does it matter if a kite is made in vietnam, sri lanka, nz, philipines abu dhabi or Nusa knobdonger??.
Thought provoking would be if a zebra and a human could make babies. How would that turn out?
Or if Waveslave and Rhonda got it on..
Rhonda has better taste....
Location not so interesting agreed, but it's the process stuff - 1000 kite batch v what Ozone is doing for example.
I'm tired of "my kite is better than your kite blah blah blah" threads, and we've all seen them before - the information explained in this one is actually interesting.
I am quite interested as well. Would love to hear more about what they have achieved. Are there any articles on the net or elsewhere with some metrics and describing their journey and plans for the future?
In a previous life (last 8 years of my career) I was Lean Manufacturing Manager for AAA (Asia, Africa & Australasia) region of a large multinational.
My team and I provided Training, Kaizen & project support. Used SMED approach to reduce manufacturing change over times from 4 hours to 12 minutes to facilitate batch size reduction to support JIT / One Piece Flow. Also implemented Lean in Warehouses and Logistics operations.
No I am not looking for a job.
Just remembered reading and watching the videos:
www.seabreeze.com.au/News/Kitesurfing/War-of-the-Kite-Factories_6006254.aspx
i allways found this video quite revealing i know it is to do with a paraglider wing and not a kite but for those that are not truly aware why our kites cost so mutch i remember hearing from one of the owners of a kite company how many KILOMETERS of stitching goes into makeing a kite. i really use to think they were maybe a bit on the expensive side but there really is just so much damn work that goes into these things.
anyways heres a little video might shed a bit of light on some processes that go into makeing a paraglider wing
Select to expand quotesir ROWDY said..
Truth is a lot of companies kite designs are fairly stagnant. They change stuff just so it looks like they did something, often times making the product worse than previous years...
Naish Twin tips?
Select to expand quoteKitepower Australia said..Gorgo said..
I read the interview with Roberto Ricci in Kiteworld issue 54. I go the impression that he was happy to continuously change and refine things during the lifecycle of the product. He did not need to wait for a new product range to put improvements in place.
Ozone make to order but the design and features of the products remain constant during the life of the product range.
Hi Gorgo
Unless a brand owns its own factory, they all produce in batches of at least 1000 kites (maybe 500 for very small brands), the OEM factories will not accept orders for smaller quantities, and under 1000 kites they charge a premium to build them too, so its also uneconomical and uncompetitive.
Unless a brand uses the JIT (Just In Time business model), and none do other than Ozone, as far as I know, then they cannot make running changes in the same way that Ozone can. Recently a new one pump valve was signed off from the rigorous testing program and every kite made from that day onwards will have this valve, including all still current 2013 models (C4, Edge, Zephyr), this type of instant change is just not possible with batch production methods.
actually did notice a difference in stitching (around the bladder nipples) on my earlier 2011 c4's compared to one's i purchased later in the season
Just in time etc does make sense in that I got on the late release 19m edge last July in Bali and I swear there was more voodoo edge in that sucker than the 17m of that year I flew earlier. My 10m had it as well.
the Just In Time manufacturing method is probably fine if the retailers order enough stock or if there is enough excess stock with the manufacturer. Alternatively I seen some other manufactures have multiple manufacturing runs every few months with minor updates each time. They must have a good deal with the manufacturer and it smooths out the cycle of delivery.
Problem with some of the JIT techniques are if I randomly go in to a store near the end of the season after trashing my gear and order a new kite I might get the response
"no worries, please pay now, and we will ring you when we have your kites" 1 month later after season over you get kite. This is similar if you order too early in the season as there are not many punters chasing gear, so manufactures not geared up for the few odd bods. So for a few punters its not in time.
Select to expand quoteeppo said..
Just in time etc does make sense in that I got on the late release 19m edge last July in Bali and I swear there was more voodoo edge in that sucker than the 17m of that year I flew earlier. My 10m had it as well.
19M and 10M Edges were a mid model release and are actually a different kite, similar, but different.
Select to expand quoteKozzie said..
i allways found this video quite revealing i know it is to do with a paraglider wing and not a kite but for those that are not truly aware why our kites cost so mutch i remember hearing from one of the owners of a kite company how many KILOMETERS of stitching goes into makeing a kite. i really use to think they were maybe a bit on the expensive side but there really is just so much damn work that goes into these things.
anyways heres a little video might shed a bit of light on some processes that go into makeing a paraglider wing there is allways the cabrinha video that is pretty simular on there production.
but the difference between the 2 is the legal law that one is produceing a sail and one is produceing an aircraft. so the restrictions (and i am a utter newbie to this) are mutch heavier on the glider wing / aircraft. now cabrinha aka neil pryde have been produceing sails for decades (which is why i have tended to go with the flow and chosen them as my personal go to kite brand) but if companys like Gin and Ozone who produced paraglider wings before kites and possibly (if what steve is saying is accurate that they follow the same testing guidelines etc) then surely there product has alot more attention and care etc
steve from what my little experience knows is that ozone is seen as the "EXTREME" sort of generation of paragliders sexy models good advertiseing etc etc are there kites and paragliders produced in the same factory as eachother ? i can only imagine they would have to seperate the companys
anyways i hope the videos a little intresting for some. i havent even seen a macpara wing in person im a gradient fanboy as thats what my instructor pimps and from what i can tell there grand. but i really would like to one day fly the SAME kite brand for both glider wings and kites and ozone has defineitely been well and truly on my mind for some time, especially with getting them custom made!
ps i just want to add ironicly why i got a 2013 chaos off you steve instead of a C4 is because the C4's hadnt dropped in price yet as there has been no 2014 release hahaha i know its just one kite but hay im a slave to the savings
Bugga, we would or should have done a similar deal on a 2013 C4, oh well next time?
The Ozone factory consists of several large buildings all built next to each other, there are separate production areas for foils and water kites, and paragliders, but they are all produced in the same factory complex on the same property.
The company is split into different divisions for administration and taxation reasons.
Cabrinha/Neil Pryde factory has produced paragliders in the past, more towards the beginning of the kitesurf boom, their factory has been making inflatable kites from the very beginning, the very first inflatable kites (Wipika) were made at the Neil Pryde factory, and in my opinion the best quality kites coming from China come from this factory.
Ozone's quality control for their kites is based on their experience and standards for paraglider production. The attention to detail and quality of ozone is equal to or better than anything else I have seen.
Kites coming from the Sri Lankan facility where North, Core, and many other brands are made also produces excellent quality.
I've visited the Neil Pryde factory and have seen first hand, the quality this factory produces and standards they maintain across all the products they manufacture there. The amount of steps and processes in the production of a kite are mind blowing, and in my opinion they are incredibly cheap for what they are and can only be produced and sold in our country at very affordable prices because of the much lower wages and living standards in China and Asia.
Yeah, you can winge about the high cost of kites in Australia as is the fashion, or you can consider how much work actually goes into making one & they seem pretty damn cheap. Personally I think of how much joy I get from a kite. Really, I don't think we have very much to complain about.
Col
Select to expand quoteKozzie said..
there is allways the cabrinha video that is pretty simular on there production.
Very Cool.
I must admit that paragliders are insane and that video is unreal. I would be happy for a company to have their own control over that process (like OZONE) especially when you are up in the air like that.
I would love to get into paragliding in the future, I gave tandem a go in NZ and it was unreal.
As with JIS manufacturing. I have worked on rowing skulls with this system and we could pump out a olympic class rowing skull in 10 days from order. We could also make custom changes to cut downs and rower weight. That works for that business as it is semi custom production. We did at one point have a stock of training boats ready to go. That put a load of pressure on our sales guys to sell those boats.
I have to say the JIS model works well BUT when you trash your kite you need a new one you cant wait a month. Ozone has the right balance but for shops to pre order again it puts stress on the sales team.
Al
Select to expand quoteHappyG said..
I must admit that paragliders are insane and that video is unreal. I would be happy for a company to have their own control over that process (like OZONE) especially when you are up in the air like that.
I would love to get into paragliding in the future, I gave tandem a go in NZ and it was unreal.
As with JIS manufacturing. I have worked on rowing skulls with this system and we could pump out a olympic class rowing skull in 10 days from order. We could also make custom changes to cut downs and rower weight. That works for that business as it is semi custom production. We did at one point have a stock of training boats ready to go. That put a load of pressure on our sales guys to sell those boats.
I have to say the JIS model works well BUT when you trash your kite you need a new one you cant wait a month. Ozone has the right balance but for shops to pre order again it puts stress on the sales team.
Al
There seems to be some mistaken ideas on how JIT works withing the Ozone dealer network. All dealers buy direct from Ozone, there is no distributor here, but if a dealer does not have a particular kite, they simply call around the network or call me and we track one down, worst case scenario is you may have to wait a couple of weeks.
The way that other brands work, even when dealers buy direct is that they order in the largest possible amounts that they can risk and afford. If they don't have the kite a customer is looking for, it may not be available from the supplier and although most dealers will swap stock to other dealers, popular models or models that dealers have short supply of will not be swapped or sold to another dealer.
JIT does not affect retail stockholdings, although dealers do not have to hold as much stock can can order more frequently. If a retailer is out of stock its not the fault of the JIT system, its more to do with an unpredicted demand or poor inventory management by the retailer.
For those that challenge Ozone's two weeks fresh from the factory, that's exactly how long it took to get my 7m Edge to the retailer. It only took longer for me to get it as it wasn't practical for me to pick it up from the shop. It took almost as long to have it posted from Perth to Geraldton as it did to get it made in the factory and shipped to Perth.
just got a complete quiver of ozones (4 edges and a zephyr) ...so far absolutely loving riding them, the zephyr is a work of art for the light wind sessions... used the 11 briefly and liking what i got out of it but switched upto the 13 after 30min as the wind was down a bit...cant wait to try the 11 and 7 in their proper wind sweet spot. (demoed a 9 so know about that one)
anyway totally big up ozones delivery times...i got my kites just under 3 weeks after ordering them , had an extra 2 day delivery to get them to my door (living on islands off the uk and all)
its quite a nice thought to think that my kites are actually brand new, built for me so proper crispy ..
also one bonus is the custom colour schemes...i got one of each standard and then got myself a nice pimp red and black 9m..did think about all black but decided on a splash of red in the end.
so far so good totally stoked with my ozones (swapped from 2 years of north )
Another thing with Ozone has on thier side is thier product is such good quality that peaople are happy to wait 2 to 3 weeks for a kite that you know will be just what you want instead of prehaps walking into a shop and walking out with a kite.
And with JIT you can order with your own colour layout. These guys are all over it.
Its good to see a subject for a change that outlines how the kites are made rather then ine oerson flying a kite, mowing the lawn and saying how its the best kite out. Everybody has different body types, riding styles , conditions , boards etc. I think if you are after a kite you will find one that suits you from your own judgment over time. This thread is great though as it gives more info on what goes into a kite/manufacturers etc and build quality
Select to expand quotemattyj said..
* ha ha I mean one person
i knew what you meant, but im doslecksic
