When I was building my LLMini I thought would I have done this as my first yacht?
My first land yacht was a Freeflight "Manta" which came in kit form which I built with a mate in his fathers garage after we moved the caravan out.
At the moment there are 2 sorts of yachts currently sailing around the world, those that are manufactured and come complete and prebuilt and at the other end is the DIY type where you need to do every thing.
At times on the forum it appears that some people struggle with the process of this sort of building of land yacht (as i know i would have also when i first came into the sport).
So what im getting to, is there room in the sport for a kit yacht and if so what level should it be?
I would imagine one that could be built by a father & child maybe over a couple of weekends with only a minium of tools ie. drill, shifter and a screw driver kit.
Bill Finch many years ago tried to solve this problem with a yacht called a Faze5 which was a clamp system "Kit" with most things pre made you just had to get your own tube. And from what I can see is the Club88 was similar in concept of a kit style yacht.
I think welding and fibreglassing would be the biggest deterents to "would be" DIYers, but if you take those out of the equation, then there's only a fine line between that and buying an "assembly required" yacht like a Blokart.
Hypothetically, if we use the LLFmini as an example (and of course everything was done to compensate the designer etc etc) there might be a market for premade components, like your front fork or completely assembled chassis or Ian's seat etc.
However, unless Paul does this himself, I realise that it goes against his terms of use for the plans, ie: not for personal profit. Perhaps he might be prepared to give a license to build for a percentage of the profits.
Then again this will raise all of the insurance issues previously discussed and the cost may end up the same as the production landyachts anyway.
I have previously done a lot of work with industrial design students and often their way of thinking is rather non conformist, actually something they are taught.
Im actually NOT thinking a LLMini kit but some sort of different type of design.. not to be faster or more compact etc,etc but an "IKEA" type yacht so to speak for new commers to the sport.
While the insurance is an inportant factor do you look for that when you buy a wall unit or bed from IKEA?
With the world economic climate at the present there would probably be many small engineering companies in Australia that have the resorces, indemnity and ability to produce an item like a land yacht kit.
I agree. I believe the market is crying out for an affordable "Mini Yacht" that is standardised and easily completed at home with the minimal of skills and readily available "off the shelf" components.
This is quite achieveable as far as the trike goes. When it comes to the mast and sail though it is very difficult to trim the cost while maintaining standardisation.
Kit form is a great concept for what we are talking about but when selling to the general public on a commercial basis, as Hillsy has mentioned, all sorts of manufacturer and public liability issues come into play.
I still think there is a way of doing it though. Cheers Cisco.
Just call it a portable chaise lounge with a cabana attatched.(wink) then remember to include the disclainer of not being responsible for uses other than stated!
There is some merit in this conversation, starter kits, initial contact arousal's,
I have never seen anything in Australia like radio controlled model landys. These were around in popular mechanics eons ago, simple, easy, cheap and they make the initial connection with much needed parent sibling participation. "From little things, big things grow". Could be a good affordable promotional point for schools, the limpet point.
The next step is similar to what happened in the canoe industry. From the original old cumbersome Canadian type canoes " read blown cart " to the Roto moulded heavy duty plastic non destructible' wild man, solo style.
This could be the entry level man carrying capable, less injurious and nearly indestructible, cost effective, have a go matey, starter. No welding skills, just goooo!!!
Chassis in one bit, wack on three wheels, step the mast and unfurl the sail, me hearty's, and your up and racing
Mast and sail $200.....3 wheels $75......Chassis $250......seatbelt $ 30..... profit $100,
am i loopy or what ........ Sorry, ....add disclaimer sticker $ 2
It sure would be nice wouldnt it.
The problem as i see it , ( using the LLMini as the example) is that the Hard part is the time consuming part of cutting and preparing all the components. The cost of the chassis materials and the time to put the chassis together are the smallest factors.
If you were cutting out all the bits , packaging it all up and frieghting in Australia the 'cost 'gets bigger and bigger.freight east to west seems to be around $300, unless you have a volume deal .
Ive told a few people that have approached me that if you dont want to source the materials,or put them together, then a basic blokart is actually good value, as the price is about what you are going to spend if you have somebody make it all for you.
hence the plans, instructions, photos and advice
Also don't forget the cost of a factory and staff to produce the thing , advertising, printing of promotional litterature.......etc....etc...etc.
I think Blokart are doing a fantastic job producing an entry level landyacht, and getting thousands of people into the sport. What we need to do now is to figure out how to get some of these sailors up to the next level, which is Class 5.
Any suggestions guys?
I hope this doesn't start another fight!
Welcome blokart owners into our existing clubs and events for a start. That way they'll get give class 5 a go (and I'd get to give a blokart a go too )
I think things have improved a lot in this area of late and there seems to be much less of an "Us and them" attitude, but there's a way to go yet.
Lets kidnap them, feed them mind altering drugs and hypnotise into believing that you can put a class 5 into the boot of your car. Hands up any blokarter that has moved to class 5 - none that I know of. Those that have tried the bigger yachts have generally enjoyed the experience but not enough to pursue a change. Lets face it Paul Beckett has made it easy to "Blokart", try to buy any other class of yacht!!!!!
Maybe Mr Becket is already testing an over grown Blokart that will fit nicely into the class 5 specs,food for thought.
Yes it would be interesting. How many Blokart sailors would buy a Class 5 landyacht if it was produced by Blokart?
I think that it would cater for people who have not the time or inclination to build a class5.
I think one of the draw backs for class5 is that it is difficult to find plans for class5 that are current (fisly). There are detailed plans on here for pacific magic and the lefroy minni (thanks to landyacht)but not much else. Maybe we need to have a section on here that is fixed so that plans can be added and easley found as the site is now getting quite big and I think a lot of stuff is getting difficult to find.
cheers
AUS230
detailed plans on any class 5 apart from the pacific magic I've found that no one seems willing to help (refer to www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=51373 ).So I gave up on class5 and currently considering a NALSA class#1
A lot of the class5 info around is at least 15+ years old by now so perhaps thats why people aren't commiting to specifics in the design.
eg. "club88" was designed in 1988 ... 21 years ago, even the "Pacific Magic" design is from 1993 and based on a yacht from a few years earlier.
Class5 is and always will be a VERY changing design and people build them to suit their local sailing conditions, The FISLY design specs are infact very tight when you look into them closely but over the years people investing lots of $ pushed the class way out of the price of many sailors, and hence the "Promo" class which was set up to restrain the $ outlayed.
But overall the Class5 specs are quite sound.( but would be nice if they were updated to take into the advancements in material technology )
The NALSA class 1/ Mini rules class 1 and the open nature of the specs will lead to HUGE variations in yacht design AND speed. This alone might be a problem as sailing with a 6sqm sail on an open beach on a gentle breeze will be nice but sailing on the lake at Saftey Bay WA with a ROARING "Fremantle Doctor" blowing would almost be lethal.
Sailing the "same" type of yacht as the person next to you always has a great amount of appeal.
iand, What were your specific questions relating to class5?
I see the reasons for no plans availability in recent years, is that the class is a development class, always has been, always will be. Seagull Promo plans in minute details are on the net, just look, but an "open" 5 would be out of date on the international scene before you could draw the plans, let alone print. In Europe there are changes on a weekly basis by the competitive sailors, that's how they stay competitive.
It's not a lack of willingness to help, it's more "I don't want to reccomend something which will be out of date tomorrow"!
There have been many laudible attempts to have one design within the framework of an existing class in many forms of sport, landyachting, sailing are just 2. I have yet to see one that works outside a small area geographically. NZ was a good example. The Winger was a great yacht and gave rise to good competitive sailing. But the net result was that the standard stagnated where the rest of the world kept going. When the Seagull came back to NZ and lapped the second place yacht in just over 2 laps of a 5 lap race the writing was on the wall. 2 options, join the Seagull squad, or give up, and both happened. Was this good for the sport, there are 2 sides to every discussion! 26" wheels are another example, lots of people gave up when this undoubted performance improvement was allowed, cost being the major reason. Doubled the cost of a yacht almost overnight until people figured how to make their own, by which stage it was too late to get many back!
I do not think a trailer would be suitable for this. maybe Clem could tell us a little history on this thing
Cheers
AUS230
Gizmo-"iand, What were your specific questions relating to class5"
I tried to get hold of plans for the Promo, Fed-5, Club-88 to compare mast position (distance from rear wheels to mast base), construction styles, material sizes, different ways of adjustable mast rake etc. before committing to a particular design
Sorry Vic I dont know much history of the "Big Boat", but "Team OBSS" did come up with a plan for it.....
The "Big Yacht" was a project for tourist rides on Ninety Mile Beach. It was a commissioned design by Ron Given, and a number of us were consulted on how to achieve it. It was funded by the NZ govt tourism initiative (perhaps a scam) and progressed to about what you see. From memory it was going to be a 12 seater to operate in conjunction with the tourist coaches which travel the beach every day.
The "no wind" was the biggest issue which I could see, and how to get it up to a sailing speed. The last consultation which I was involved with was addressing that issue. The concept at the time was a 4th wheel driven by a light weight high speed diesel which was going to be retractable. Very similar to the electric units which we designed and used for the Landyachts at the opening of the Commonwealth Games in Auckland, just on a VERY giant scale.
I didn't hear anything much after that (and my part of the consultancy was never paid), I suspected at the time that someone in funding circles "pulled the plug" on what in reality was a "hare brained scheme" . A number of people earned a fairly hefty salary for 12 months or so though!
I posted this some time ago. My mast is excelent quality.
Hi,
I noticed this post, I have been buying high tensile tube , firstly for gryocopters. airborne trikes and now land yacht masts, for a few years from Bob Kiely
(Light Spars Of Austrlia
6 Horscroft Pl, Moorabbin,
VIC 3189
p: (03) 9555 4622 f: (03) 9555 4965)
Bob still only uses phone / faxes ( as he says he is still using carrier pigions)
Bob has supplied masts for Travis Bartlet(through a supplier) and 2 directly to me.
He tests the tenstile strength of all his tube before he lets it go.
He is a great guy and has had years of experience in making masts .
Cheers
Aus 230
Vics post really brings the topic full circle.
having to troll the web and history, then relying on word of mouth is THE big problem.
hence the fall back position of coming up with a simple set of free plans that can use a variety of alternative materials, backed up with the experience of people who have built them..
Im absolutely stunned at how big that creature is. looks like it belongs in L Lefroy tho