I am in the planning stage of building a mini. Since I am 1000 miles from the nearest ocean, I will be doing most of my land sailing in a large parking lot. I do not want to do body damage, to either myself or any parked cars,therefore I will want to put a brake on the mini. I think a disc brake would be the best. Any ideas how to put one of those on the wheels? Would it be best on the front or the back? Thanks.
Brian
Most of the weight is on the back wheels so the rear is where the brake[s]
will be most effective
The only problem with a rear wheel brake is should you be in a tight turn and use it on the upwind wheel it probably will lock that wheel up on the down wind wheel then it could slow you so as to lift the up wind wheel further or drop you on your side. The Front Wheel is generally always on the ground all the time and would tend to slow you evenly though applied at the wrong time could assist in a Roll Over as with a Motor Vehicle. I would suggest that any form of brake be applied sparingly and only if you are going to hit an Immovable Object. Learn to Sail it Slowly and where there very few objects to Damage (Cars or People. People tend to get upset when they or their cars are damaged)
Look to AZUSA.com for wheels as they do sell Wheels,Rims and Brakes to suit.http://www.azusaeng.com/wheels/whlspecs.html#anchor1068341
I nearly bought my wheels from them until I spotted some over here in Aus' that were suitable to my purposes.
Best of Luck! "Go For It"
Ron
Many years ago I saw a brake set up that forced a tube onto the rear wheels rubbing onto the tyre tread. There were 2 (one on each side of the yacht) which were operated separately.
They were also used in RAPID turning around markers during races.
If you look closely you will notice them in these pics.
Thanks for the information on wheels. I will order some from AZUSA. From what I gather I should get 6" X 4" wheels with high speed bearings and the universal tires. I was thinking of the aluminum wheels, they look good. Am I on the right track? This is somewhat confusing.
As far as brakes go I will be most comfortable with a disc brake. Any ideas on how to mount these to a wheel?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Brian,
A drag brake is only effective if you are stopped or moving very slow on dirt, as on any hard surface(car park) it will just lift that side wheel or just slide and make sparks.
Mounting a disc brake on a side wheel will mean extra weight on that side which would unbalance your yacht. Also the disc I think, would have to be attached to a metal wheel which would increase its weight and likely unbalance it. You would also have to attach to the axle cables and the brake mechanism which in the event of tipping over would be something nasty to fall on. I feel that a bicycle type caliper brake on the front wheel would be best or failing that a disc brake as there would already be the fork for mounting.
The opeating handle would be best mounted outside the seat closest to your dominant hand.
We use pipe on tyre brakes on our class5's mainly for turn assist or holding position on the start line with sail sheeted in.
Hope this helps
Wayne
Sabydent,
Ok! At this point forget about ordering your Wheels. Comb this Forum and Study Photo's of the machines and methods used in the final product to serve the purposes of each type of machine. Just because you have acquired a set of plans does not mean the build has to be precisely to the Plan. Mull your Build through, Build the entire Land Yacht in your mind altering it as you go. Plans are a Snap Shot in time where there application is concerned, just like a photograph. A pic' of someones build may well be what you like but may be in need of alteration to suit your needs or style. Seek advice freely Mull that over and apply it to your needs. Both my machines were done in that way and I am pleased with the results as they have my Stamp on them as well as the original designers. I am not saying to build the same as me but make up your mind and then stick to it.
Wheels are important and should be chosen to suit you needs and there venues. I only used 6" Rims because I have good Beaches and a Tarmac to sail on and the Aircraft Tires are Freebies The AZUSA 10" are a very nice wheel but a little heavy. Were I you I should look seriously at 8" x 4" to suit 460/400 X 8. for the Rear and a 20" Bicycle Wheel BMX heavy plastic Wheel for the front steering and that would be easier to fit Brakes to. There are Mini's about with Caliper, Rim type Brakes fitted (Simpler to deal with). See what is on the market and adapt it to your use. Car Parks? I think, from my limited experience) I would be going for the 20" front wheel and Maxxis Miracles and their Rib Pattern Tread. they stick like the proverbial Crap on a Blanket. This seems to be your first build, take your time and be proud of your product.
When choosing your wheels also take into account the Use of Salt on the ice over your way as it will have a corrosive effect on Metal Rims. Plastics may be more durable..
Ron
Nikrum:
Thanks for the advice. I have a pretty good idea as to how my build is going to progress. I have read as much as I can on this forum (great advice) and am ready to get going. I saw some photographs of a destroyed BMX wheels on a land yacht and this gives me some concern as I a fat guy and will stress these things to the max. At 6' and 280lb I don't want to have my stuff falling apart at 45km/hr. If the BMX wheel is strong enough, it would be ideal since it would be a snap to put a brake on my mini. Do you need to increase the rake of the front fork to reduce the lateral forces on the wheel if you use a narrower larger diameter wheel?
Forgive the dumb questions, but I have never seen a a Land Yacht other than a Blokart, and that was 2 years ago. It is a little tough going just by videos and photographs. I appreciate your help and patients.
Brian
BMX wheels only work as a front wheels they are NOT STRONG ENOUGH for rear wheels.
Front wheels are lightly loaded and have very little down force, so putting a brake on them might seem easy, yes the wheel will stop but the yacht wont !!!
Brakes on land yachts should ONLY be regarded as parking brakes.
I use a bike brake on the front wheel of aus230 but as gizmo says it is only good for parking at low speeds, it also holds well on the starting line but it is useless at speed.
cheers
aus230
Brian
Brakes on land yachts may slow you a little or keep you parked but wont help much in a quick stop situation You need to sail the yacht with a get out clause in mind at all times It has been said by Aus 230 and Gizmo above and in my experience
front wheel brakes are park brakes only at best Rear wheel brakes I wouldnt bother
either-- extra weight and complexity and dubious value
You rarely see brakes on land yachts-- there is a reason
cheers Hiko
Well there you go Brian,
All of the above and probably more. Given your Body Mass (Sorry about this Joke) Have you ever thought of a Para Kite Sail attached to Ankles and wrists whilst laying on your side[}:)]
That is a terrible joke sorry. Your Avatar would suggest your build as well as your own description.
Seriously though with out joking I Probably would look seriously at AZUSA's 10" Chromed Wheels as they should stand up to Heavy side thrust which will happen in sharp turns and strong winds. A Lake Lefroy Mini or a derivative there of is where I would push you, I would also consider using heavier materials but that is a subject I suggest you ask aus230, Cisco or Landyacht as they are designer builders .
Silly questions is what like minded groups are all about do it once and do it right
Ron
If you go with a LLM you won't need to beef it up any. I use a LLM built by designer(Landyacht). Main reasons:- 1.Crashing puts a great load on your body and if foot steering does not absorb impact by bending/breaking, your knees ankles etc suffer. 2.Increased weight changes sailing characteristics e.g. centre of effort will change, take longer to accelerate.
Building to plan specifics will give you a proven yacht that is quite stable for normal speed up to around 60kph depending on your weight (more ballast more speed? [}:)]).Then when you are a more competent sailor you can experiment to your hearts content, either with your first or subsequent builds because you will be able to see for yourself the differences your changes make.
Before changing your yacht ask on this forum because most things have been tried before. But most of all have fun and you may be an innovator in landsailing.
Hello saby,
Something else to think about..... if you do decide to go with the azusa wheels, you may consider the 8" size. If you go that route, you can go to the local hardware store for cheap wheelbarrow tires, which just happen to be 8" as well. Same precision bearings as the other sizes too.
Dang! Saby,
By the time you start your build you are really going to be "Full Bottle" so much good advice. Regarding wheels. It would seem I was being a little over cautious regarding Body Mass, Ok! People that know better than me seem to think beefing up your machine is not required. fair enough. Desertyank has some AZUSA 8" Ali wheels and is right about the tires 4.60/400 x 8" are common. I have only used the Cheep Chinese ones and found them wanting in the longevity stakes as they chewed out on Tarmac in a few hours. Up sides and down sides. Eventually it is you that has to make up your mind. I must admit that the 8" were the ones I was going to get but I managed to get some Aussie Machined Ali ones cheaper and a I said the Second Hand Aircraft tires are really Cheap . The ones that desertyank is using are the Bee's Knees, Ribbed Pattern Tread.
Ron
given your weight, I would scrap the plastic BMX option as a front wheel.
The most effective brake Ive used has been sandgropers rear friction set up . it will stop the yacht , but not in the sense that we use brakes on a car. in a landyacht you steer to avoid, depower the sail , etc before relying on brakes. the brakes are for the final stop. a disc brake on the front will just lock wheels and remove the steering option.
I would suggest as a first build a LLM , a more sit up seat than we do, and have 4.00x 8 rims all round, try for a 20mm or3/4 axle shaft set up, and maybe a larger diameter rear axle than the 30x30mm. tube we use. say 35x35inside some 40 x40.
just remember to keep it simple
Going to skip the brakes. I have begun to gather my materials. What material is used to make the bushing for the steering?
Cheap method is to weld close fitting washers on either end of steering tube. You could go the other way and use bearings, or you could get some pipe that fits close to your steering rod size and fit grease nipple or find some suitable fibre/plastic and dirll to size and insert into steering tube. There are endless ways.
Good morning Sabydent,
Like Paul says there is a plethora of ways to build your steering pivot. Take a look at what I have done with Schrodinger's Cat. Consider where you will be doing your Sailing. Keep in mind that you are a big lad. I come in at 102Kg/16Stone/225lbs. So enough of that Fat Crap!! . The lads you are talking to here have built to operate on Salt Flats and rougher ground so their Front Ends have to withstand a deal more shock than bitumen/tarmac. Beaches are a little more bouncy than Tarmac etc, we even have a Lunatic YANK that is building to run on a Bean Field. He has to be one tough boy as that could be a little bouncy but each to his own. I used an old BMX front Fork and Steering Head to build Both my units on the Cat I used the Fork(Look @ the Pic's. On the Razor I used the Steering Head and Steering inner Tube and Bent up a Fork from 3.5mm Steel Tube. On Both units I fitted a Solid Steel Bar inside the Inner /Fork Tube to Beef it up against hitting obstacles, leaving just enough room for the Handle Bar wedging system to fit. As the Bearings were a bit dodgy I replaced the Bearings with fully sealed bearings. The entire Bearing housing and inner race Tap out of the outer tube and off the inner tube, fairly straight forward. Again having the materials ids one thing putting them together strongly is another. Use your Nouse/Common Sense and build for your toughest conditions of use.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Land-Yacht-Sailing/General/Structural-limitations-of-a-Lefroy-Mini/
Strength is needed in certain areas however as Paul pointed out some times it is probably better have a simple to replace part bend out of shape to save more complicated parts. Makes sense to me, as, if you over engineer in one place another will become the victim of a CRASH!
Ron
PS. Better to have bent steering than no steering at all. You probably know to Double Click My Avatar to see my Pic's
Thainks. I think I have the steering figured out now. Next question...I see that the plans only have one fork for the front wheel. This would add a rotational force to the fork. Would there be any advantage to having two forks?
Oh Gawd! 'ave a winge whydon'tcha Wayne??[}:)][}:)] Wayne, Paul, Ron what ever just be thankful your wife doesn't call you "Late for Dinner"[}:)][}:)]
Now answer the man, you have the knowledge.
Ron
Two forks = more weight and harder to get wheel on and off. With wheel centred on shaft(centre of tyre in line with steering shaft) no rotational forces.
And Ron, while we're at it w'h'inge 'as an aitch in it.
You know, Ron, you aught to talk all your thoughts over with your other 'ead before you post 'em. Or did you get it surgically removed?
now , now boys, calm it down, go have a nice tassie beer.
the single sided fork works fine, it doesnt even matter if its left or right.
will you be machining a bush for you steering head? if so just black or white nylon is fine. I wouldnt recommend a metal bush as they inevitably bind when used on a flatter angle. the nylon shouldnt need any kind of lubricant, which only picks up dirt anyway. a slight resistance in the fit is preferable to a really loose fit
Now this I love! Pickin' a Fight with some one Bigger'n' me
Now TP1 to what remark does your post refer?? and I'm Damned! I was always taught that the "H" is always silent?? And No nothing as "Supistipacated"
as Surgery.
Just heavy **** being dropped on my Head as well as Bashing my head against Brick Walls.
Personally I do not trust "R" Pins, Split Pins or Bent bits or Wire. The Good ol' Castellated Nut done up finger tight and backed off to the nearest slot then a Split Pin.
Essentially both Single Arm Fork and Double Arm Forks work Well. It all comes down to the degree of simplicity and perceived security you want. I have stated before that I am a Belt and Braces man and just prefer a nice Fork.
Ron
If you don't trust split pins why then would you use one in a castlelated nut.
Castellated if you are USAnian
Again, thanks for your help.
Where does one source the nylon to construct the bushings?
I have used a copper bush in aus230 for 5 years now (same one) always kept it greased and it still shows no sign of wear.
cheers
Come on TP1,
Are you serious?? There is no load against the Split Pin/Bent Nail. The Nut takes all the load... Stch stch stch and here I was thinking you were an intelligent man.[}:)]
Ron
