The devil will be in the details, or they just go the 'one design' route...
A good idea in theory but seems very hard to regulate. I'm watching the discussions with interest.
Seems a retrograde step to me. Does it signal a set of hard and fast rules for the 5.6 Mini determined by the type of seat the machine has? At what point is a seat lay-back and streamlined. Or is it up to the particular mood of the measurer on the day to decide what class of mini he is looking at? .
I was thinking about this today while I was supposed to be working, what about instead of lowering the fast guys/yachts to the newb level the landsailing community work to raise the newbs/yachts up somehow? I guess it would mean a concerted effort to make landyacht tech more accessible (availability and cost) like what has been happening on Seabreeze over the past few years. Just a thought with even more problems to consider...
Then again, why shouldn't those who do the miles testing, sailing and developing reap the benefits? Maybe we need to face the reality that racing will take a certain minimum amount of effort, and therefore racing isn't for everyone (ie: more emphasis on non-racing activities).
If you actually go back in the postings to the reason the Mini5.6 was established, it was to get newcomers into the sport and then funnel them into class 5 as 'the international race class'
Perhaps how gokarts lead into open wheel race cars then to F1 In motor racing.
But it seems some have wanted to push the class to suit their own needs and trophy cabinet rather than taking a broader view of developing to overall sport.
If you break it into two classes with racing a set design then what is the point of improving if improvements can only be sailed it the non race category?
The improvements are with the people..... Not with the yachts.
This is why one design racing is so popular in the water sailing world.....
Who ever mentioned a NON racing class?
As a beginner, I am wondering what all the fuss about the mini 5.6 is about. It is a very simple concept, that allows rookies like myself to begin racing. Without benefit of any experience and with only help from this forum, I was able to build a mini and enter in the world championships last July. With simple rules, it was comfortable to go to my first race. Granted, I got my butt handed to me in every race I entered, I loved it and learned a lot. Cannot wait to race again. Keep it simple for the sake of those new to the sport. Let the other divisions complicate things.
Way back when the mini concept first started I commented that once the manufactures started making 5.6 mini the game would change and racing would become part of it. To stay completive we would have to continually look for improvements in our home built yachts . I think everyone who gets into a yacht wants to race at sometime or another.
My mini was built before the 5.6 was conceived, at very little cost , the only changes have been to move the mast post forward and add a bit of plywood to enclose the front at about $20 cost (made me feel a lot safer). The yacht is still completive even with a sail that I hand stitched. So I am not sure what all the fuss is about the alterations that I have made can be made by any one. I hope we keep to the original rules which enabled plenty of experimentation.
The mini landyacht is the entrance level into Landsailing. But it also depends on the venue you have to sail on. I sail a Class 5 because it is a perfect size for my local beach 15 minutes away. If I had only carparks to sail on I would probably have a Blokart. If I had a huge salt lake to sail on I would probably have a class3. It all comes down to horses for coarses.
The suggestion that the mini yachts are convenient because they can fit into the boot of your car is bull****. I can arrive at a venue with my Class5 on my trailer and have it ready to sail in 2 or 3 miniutes.
just remember that the europeans have a different situation to us. when minis became part of the racing scene some clubs bought the newest model from manufacturers so they could be used to introduce people to the sport. at the time these models were found to be very fast and racable.
the racing versions of the class developed in huge leaps in months rather than years, leaving the entry level classes behind.
it was inevitable and prdictable. if you recall at the time ,for the lefroy speed week we split the minis into minis and super minis, on pretty much the same lines, but everybody turned up with superminis.
here on seabreeze we have the distinct atvantage in that we have the skill,and willingness to experiment and build, so cost isnt so much of an issue.
I will beinterested to see how it all pans out in europe and the USA with a restiction on pod height.
i just cant see any reason to get in a flap
I commented on the FB thread a few days ago. There are a lot of folks who feel the class has taken a wrong turn because you either have to be able to fabricate or buy speed. The original mini's of old can't keep up. That was very apparent at the last Worlds. It really manifested in light air as many of the races were black flagged. A few of those I held the lead so it was a bit disappointing to me because I tuned my boat for those conditions. It looks like the class will be split into high performance (original rules ) and the Spirit Class (entry level) that has more restrictions. In the US they have made a list of new restriction for what they are calling the US mini. I wish the US and others would collaborate with FISLY once they decide what to do. I wrote down a few of my personal thoughs as to what I would do for the entry level class. I did not include the upright seat thing because there are a lot of boats already made with more prone that would fit the class like the Lake Lefroy Mini. A short guy like myself has an advantage of getting lower in the seat any way. I mentioned seat pan and seat measurements. What I meant by that was the vertical distance of the seat pan. ( people complain about promo pods being too expensive and large?) that would eliminate those. I think keeping the restrictions as few as possible would be the best. If not it puts a larger burden on the scrutineering committee during regattas.
Here is my post -
John Eisenlohr There has been similar discussion in the US about the above. I think if the class is divided in to two groups the rules for the Spirit type group should be as few and as simple as possible. I see a few suggestions for the Spirit class. 1) It breaks down to be easily transportable and stored. 2) Boom height regulation 3) up right seating arraignment. 4) body doesn't extend beyond the wheels. 2) and 4) would be easy to enforce. 1) not. 3) depends on the person sailing the boat (meaning they could change position in the seat). It might be easier if regulations are some thing requiring a measurement not a subjective matter. Example - a seat or pan around the body must be no more than X amount high at any one place. Another thing that kind of ties in with 4) is wheel fairings.
These are the restrictions I would propose
1) no enclosed body
2) no wheel fairings
3) a limitation on the seat or pan height at any one place.
If the Spirit class was formed today what boats would meet the class?
a) -www.pbase.com:443/waltercarels/image/156744748
b) -www.pbase.com/waltercarels/image/156744752
c) -www.pbase.com/waltercarels/image/156744638
d) -www.pbase.com/waltercarels/image/156744648
e) -www.pbase.com/waltercarels/image/156744755
OH boy hear we go agene, Glade to see others, who feel there is a need for two classes of mini yachts. No matter what is decided.
there needs to be input from the whole racing community world wide, and, not every one is going to be totally happy with the out come, but there has to be clear cut guide lines defining the classes, if there is going to be two classes.
The US 5.6 mini rules are worth looking at for starters, for the sprite class, and we are up to changing what we have too to bring about greater unity. The mini class is super fun class for all but it is apparent there is a need for two classes with well defined rules, such as totally open frames with no limitation of up right seating or prone , T frames, Y's , YOTT etc. and the SPORT class, anything goes let them run with it, if they want to spend 10 grand so be it. But there needs to be a place for the beginner to start that will attract new people to the sport and will give them a chance to learn how to race and gain a love for the sport or other wise the sport will become MORE stagnant. What I've seen in the US there is a horrible stagnant processes developing and the only class that is growing to speak of, is the Manta Class and if it wasn't for them we would have pretty sorry regattas. with the introduction of the 5.6 class there is a glimmer of hope, but it is about ready to be snuffed out unless there is a avenue for new people in to the sport, and that needs to be the number one concern for those who have the responsibility of the organization of this sport. there has to be well defined rules and as simple as possible. Have at it, Let get it done. / Burt US306
I know that I have zero experience in land yachting and no valid opinion to offer in regard to the specifics of this issue, however, I have experienced the same, similar issues in motor racing.
There are some universal facts that come into play where competition is involved.
1. If you have rules someone will always find a way to get around them.
2. The more rules you have the mores ways there are to gain advantage by getting around them.
3. There will always be some who will blatantly cheat.
4. No matter how well you construct the rules and specifications, even down to having a single make class supposedly running OEM equipment and fittings etc, there will be someone willing to spend more money than you to get an advantage.
5. The competitor with the most money and expensive set up does not always win.
6. There will always be competitors who will blame the other guys bigger budget instead of their own lack of skill or ability for being beaten.
7. No matter how cheap you make the entry level, speed costs money, regardless of talent.
8. You will never get consensus no matter how long you debate it,
for for what it's worth
Mick.
US 5.6 mini rules can be viewed on the NALSA site under clubs and look at the US miniyacht association and click mini yacht rules.
Mick, you pretty much have it nailed down, what rules do is keep things SOMEWHAT under control, but there has to be a starting point which is regulated to some degree. this world we live in is held together by rules and regulations and that is life! SO let the powers
that be get on with the process./Burt
Perhaps the 'powers that be' should begin with an explanation of what is the US mini association, how many members does it have and what is its mandate?
Please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have read I have the impression that the US mini rules are nothing more than a ploy
to ban John's mini because some people think that they can't beat it.
I'm also curious why this discussion of US rules is taking place on an Australian forum?
It would be nice to have a truly 'International' sport..... So why are people thinking country or local level?
Isn't why the International 5.6 Mini was developed? to be INTERNATIONAL !!!!
Select to expand quoteGizmo said..
It would be nice to have a truly 'International' sport..... So why are people thinking country or local level?
Isn't why the International 5.6 Mini was developed? to be INTERNATIONAL !!!!
Gizmo
The US mini thing happened a long time ago. The latest 5.6 Us mini rules came shortly after the last America's Landsailing Cup in March. I think they beat most to the punch with the change. The 5.6 US mini rules will likely adopt the International rules when they come out.
Select to expand quotebarney831 said..
Perhaps the 'powers that be' should begin with an explanation of what is the US mini association, how many members does it have and what is its mandate?
Please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have read I have the impression that the US mini rules are nothing more than a ploy
to ban John's mini because some people think that they can't beat it.
I'm also curious why this discussion of US rules is taking place on an Australian forum?
I don't consider this to be an"australian" forum.
We should not be isolating ideas by country/club.
International discussions promote the sport more interestingly
Select to expand quotebarney831 said..
Perhaps the 'powers that be' should begin with an explanation of what is the US mini association, how many members does it have and what is its mandate?
Please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have read I have the impression that the US mini rules are nothing more than a ploy
to ban John's mini because some people think that they can't beat it.
I'm also curious why this discussion of US rules is taking place on an Australian forum?
we're fortunate that this format of this forum is easily accesible. until FB came along almost all mini discussion was here.
seabreeze is about the most comprehensive landsailing site you'll find . only in english unfortunately.
were certainly happy to discuss whats happening
I seem to remember way back, that when I said the lack of restrictions would lead to an "arms race" that many of you guys commenting shot me down in flames. No I won't say it but...
Select to expand quoteGizmo said..
It would be nice to have a truly 'International' sport..... So why are people thinking country or local level?
Isn't why the International 5.6 Mini was developed? to be INTERNATIONAL !!!!Select to expand quotekiwi307 said..
I seem to remember way back, that when I said the lack of restrictions would lead to an "arms race" that many of you guys commenting shot me down in flames. No I won't say it but...
replying to the comment about USA mini being a reaction to the John's win at the Worlds: As the person that posts those rules to the NALSA site I can pretty much guarantee that is not the case. The constantly evolving US mini rules (latest update yesterday) predate John's world championship boat (as was mentioned) by a decade.They predate the I5.6 rules and maybe even this forum. The latest update was, I think based, on the idea that FISLY is about to change to a 2 mini class system (gleaned from this thread, so a bit of tail chasing there). The basic idea, that we need a small, cheap class to encourage new sailors, doesn't really work with a developmental class where money and engineering skill will make the low $$$,low-tech boats non-competitive fairly quickly (happened in class 5, which was also supposed to be cheap, car toppable...led to promos...) In the US, we already have an entry class, Manta Single and to a lesser extent Twin, which is still the best/easiest/cheapest way into competitive landsailing here; there are thousands out there, often found used in decent condition and cheap so the only reason we needed a mini fleet was for the builders (OCD) Minis haven't added any sailors here, almost universally built and sailed by people who were already landsailors. They have led to a lot of sail development and a lot of fun for those of us that built them, so not a bad thing. It will be interesting to see where this goes. At the moment I am reluctant to put more work and $$$ into my mini till the new international rules come out. Although the US mini folks have tried hard to promote MINIS here, I think the constantly changing rules discourage participation.So, any FISLY folks out there? Is there a rule change coming?
Select to expand quoteaus230 said..
Way back when the mini concept first started I commented that once the manufactures started making 5.6 mini the game would change and racing would become part of it. To stay completive we would have to continually look for improvements in our home built yachts . I think everyone who gets into a yacht wants to race at sometime or another.
My mini was built before the 5.6 was conceived, at very little cost , the only changes have been to move the mast post forward and add a bit of plywood to enclose the front at about $20 cost (made me feel a lot safer). The yacht is still completive even with a sail that I hand stitched. So I am not sure what all the fuss is about the alterations that I have made can be made by any one. I hope we keep to the original rules which enabled plenty of experimentation.
Select to expand quoteClemco said..
The mini landyacht is the entrance level into Landsailing. But it also depends on the venue you have to sail on. I sail a Class 5 because it is a perfect size for my local beach 15 minutes away. If I had only carparks to sail on I would probably have a Blokart. If I had a huge salt lake to sail on I would probably have a class3. It all comes down to horses for coarses.
The suggestion that the mini yachts are convenient because they can fit into the boot of your car is bull****. I can arrive at a venue with my Class5 on my trailer and have it ready to sail in 2 or 3 miniutes.
AUS 230...Yes, your beautiful/competitive boats are achieved at low cost, but that is only because you are well-experienced and an extremely talented fabricator with metal, wood and composites. There needs to be a way into landsailing for non-builders. Europeans have had production boats by the thousands, have government support and places to rent a boat and get lessons...probably why there are so many more landsailors in Europe than in the US even though we have amazing places to sail. The most common question I get as the NALSA webmaster is "where can I rent a boat and get lessons." I can't really tell them to go to France, but telling them to come out to an event where they will surely be offered a ride doesn't seem to be working.
Hi Blake,
at the sandgropers we have just started keeping a couple class5 and 5.6 club yachts for just that purpose. People can come down for a sail and get some instruction after they are competent can join in the club races (for a small fee to cover insurance cost ). If they are still interested after a couple of meetings we have yachts that they can purchase.
Cheers
Vic
Clem, yes you have a trailer and the place to store all your yachts and the trailer too.
Spare a moment to consider that not all the rest of the world is like that. Many of the Brits are very lucky to have a single car garage. Workshop area, no chance. The same applies to many in the US and Europe. If you can remember to when you were starting out you stayed with me in Auckland where I had a single car garage with the laundry in it too. That is not uncommon and why there are a number of people for who m the mini in whatever form is a good choice.
I agree with your thoughts over "horses for courses" I can also remember when you said the Blokart would never be a choice for you :).
Blake, is it possible to set up something smaller, as we sailed somewhere South LA (mid 80s) for an hour or two and invite those folks down for the time? Sadly most people need the sport taken to them rather than the other way round. Sure, you have many magnificent places to sail, the average Joe won't travel distances to get a go and most of those places I sailed in the US are hours out of town.
Many of those schools and rental outlets in particularly, France and Belgium are funding assisted but the original idea came from individuals and clubs with a will to share their sport.
Ah yes I do remember those days. Built my first Class5 in the lounge of my two bedroom flat from materials from the local dump. And it was a very good one thanks to your excellent advice NZ307. Had no garage or trailer or much money for that matter. Carried the C5 in the back of my Transit van or on the roof of my girlfriends stationwagon. Yes those were fun days.
Sailing
in general whether it be land or water is a tough to get more people into. It takes a certain amount of $ and a place to store the toys. I've been involved in landsailing since 1974. The popularity hasn't really changed all that much over time in the US. There is kind of a running joke about newbies getting into the sport here. Getting the dirtboat is the easiest and cheapest part. The trailer the storage and the camping vehicle are where the real costs start no less the fuel costs to get there. The problem is once your hooked your hooked.
beat me to the sport by 3 years 772.
but i agree with the addictive bit. we do seem to see the same problems reoccuring over and over. yet i fail to see a solution. those who dont want yachts to change seem to stall progress and then go away and do other things, whilst those of us who keep experimenting (since 1978) get bagged for pushing the envelope.
There have been a few commenting on how we have all these skill and fascilities. that others dont have. and i realize that ive taught myself all those skills, built or saved for every machine, scrounged all the materials to build those workshops,. theres never been enough money for any of the yachts ,but you just seem to get there.
Cant get a sailmaker to build the sail you want, or cant afford a new sail. lgot an old sewing machine, modified it by experiment and taught myself to sew , and cut sails. that experience alone has saved thousands of $
There are other reasons why some of us drift away Paul. In my case the bagging that I got for "pushing the envelope" and also the realisation that spending a load of time and money to travel to events where there was no wind and race officers insisting on running races made me realise it wasn't the fun it used to be.
For me it got very close to throwing a Mini together, then I took a good hard look at the "rule" and figured it could very quickly go pear shaped.
Remember that I was on the International committee that met in the UK and re-wrote the 5 rules after listening to all input. It actually made my own yacht of the time illegal, but for the overall good compromises had to be made. My only regret on those rules, pretty much what the are now, is that we did not push harder for a diameter restriction 650mm to stay in place.
Is it too late for the mini. IMHO it is not, but there must be a will to want to have a workable outcome. Right now it's a hotch potch of little bits which were aired on this forum, 2 divisions might work, but again it would be very nice to see what the "spirit" division has in mind. How dou define lay down for example when the cloth seat of a Blokart allows you to snuggle down or sit up as required? Boom height could perhaps deal with that??
Anyway, recriminations will achieve nothing. Only way forward, as I said above is with a will to come up with a workable solution. Even the LLM would not fit what Andy has in mind I suspect, and IMHO it hardly "pushes the envelope".
FWIW I predate both you and 772! (Possible Gizmo too :) )
