Select to expand quotespiggie said..
Yes it was a good read it still amazes me though.
1 -how yachts can loose can their life rafts ,aren't their painter lines conected or do they have a hydrostatic realise conected .
2 - what happened to plotting on a chart to know exactly where you are instead of making judgments from chart plotters , I am sure before the race they would have to produce a chart to meet safety inspection , perhaps they need to scrutinise a bit off chart work prior to raceing.
Yes bass strait get rough but so does every bit of ocean when the wind builds at some time ,it is the sea if you go out you have to respect it and prepare for the worst .
Like everything in life it comes down to preperation
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
There's an interesting piece in the ORCV report about the forces required to shift the raft - apparently it could have been moving at 77 kmh on the way out!!
It's also hard to see how a yacht could get a raft back aboard in those conditions. The report sensibly comes to the conclusion that mountings should be looked at, and that the emphasis on being able to launch rafts within 15 seconds could lead to them being too vulnerable.
Select to expand quotesouthace said...
I'm still thinking about the ladder!
I've known of cruisers sometimes using them as a gangway, or maybe he paints houses for a sideline 
.
Select to expand quoteHG02 said..
Ok then, what's in the room then
nuffinck ......
More than likely a life raft will come loose if running weather is not possible.
as its on deck level it will recive the highest level of gravity force before the mast. Most life rafts are secured bow to stern rather than beam to beam.
the 12 man on a charter vessel I work with came loose in a 4 meter on the quarter sea last week.
If you look at the mast you will see there's no mast-steps. maybe it's to check the rigging. LOL
Select to expand quotesouthace said..
I'm still thinking about the ladder!
It's there to let the elephant climb out of the room.
Or maybe it's a fairly light fenderboard/gangway combo? It'd probably work better than a plank.
Dont forget they started the trip in Europe where they have large tides. If you tie up to a sea wall you are going to need a ladder sometimes to get off your boat. Or back if you went to the pub at high tide.
@Chris 249. I think the answer to where the elephant in the room is lies in the last sentence of section 4.3.
I race offshore in a DK46 skippered by the ORCV safety officer. Reports do not always say what they mean and sometimes it pays to read between the lines of what is written.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..spiggie said..
Yes it was a good read it still amazes me though.
1 -how yachts can loose can their life rafts ,aren't their painter lines conected or do they have a hydrostatic realise conected .
2 - what happened to plotting on a chart to know exactly where you are instead of making judgments from chart plotters , I am sure before the race they would have to produce a chart to meet safety inspection , perhaps they need to scrutinise a bit off chart work prior to raceing.
Yes bass strait get rough but so does every bit of ocean when the wind builds at some time ,it is the sea if you go out you have to respect it and prepare for the worst .
Like everything in life it comes down to preperation
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
There's an interesting piece in the ORCV report about the forces required to shift the raft - apparently it could have been moving at 77 kmh on the way out!!
It's also hard to see how a yacht could get a raft back aboard in those conditions. The report sensibly comes to the conclusion that mountings should be looked at, and that the emphasis on being able to launch rafts within 15 seconds could lead to them being too vulnerable.
If the painter of the raft had been affixed to a strongpoint as is required the raft would have inflated. The painter is designed to break or act as a safety fuse so that if the vessel it is attached to sinks prior to the raft being cut free the painter breaks rather than rip the raft apart. The force of the raft flying overboard and coming to an abrupt halt would inflate the raft and the resulting dragging of an inflated raft by a vessel would break the painter. With all due respect to the inception crew they are very fortunate men as the raft was hardly secured for a gentle sea let alone breaking seas.
/\
I read that sentence earlier and believe it to be a thinly-veiled reference to the fact that the boat should have moved further away from the lee shore, something they go into more detail about in another section (7.10.6 onwards).
The previous sentence indicates that the boat had already retired and was using its motor at that point - several hours before the liferaft went. The point is that there no one thought it was "seen fit to continue racing" after the liferaft was lost, because the boat had turned on its engine and retired from the race hours before the raft was lost.
Also, one would expect that a report of this nature would be fairly clear and not require a lot of reading between the lines, particularly given that in some sections (such as the one following 7.10.6) it goes into specific detail about poor decisions. It was an interesting report with very good information. It does look as though perhaps even more expense may be loaded onto offshore racing, therefore further reducing the number of racers. One wonders when it will get to the stage where races don't have enough entries to continue. With the greatest of respect for the authors one wonders, for example, how the "rescue swimmer" idea will work; if the swimmer has to have a wetsuit (as I assume they would) and it has to fit well enough to allow them to swim adequately then how many thick wetsuits will each boat have to provide? The chances of having fit crew who are good swimmers, not needed for some other specific duty AND similar enough in size to share wetsuits would seem pretty slim - especially on a boat like TryBooking which had only 4 crew.
Sure, one can say that dangers should always be minimised, but at the end of the day is it better to keep loading on the expense and further reduce the number of competitors?
One issue that I don't think has been raised is that many rescues (like this one) are carried out by nearby competing yachts. If further expense and complication reduces the number of rescuers then how will that affect overall safety?
Select to expand quotefrant said..
Chris 249 said..
spiggie said..
Yes it was a good read it still amazes me though.
1 -how yachts can loose can their life rafts ,aren't their painter lines conected or do they have a hydrostatic realise conected .
2 - what happened to plotting on a chart to know exactly where you are instead of making judgments from chart plotters , I am sure before the race they would have to produce a chart to meet safety inspection , perhaps they need to scrutinise a bit off chart work prior to raceing.
Yes bass strait get rough but so does every bit of ocean when the wind builds at some time ,it is the sea if you go out you have to respect it and prepare for the worst .
Like everything in life it comes down to preperation
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
There's an interesting piece in the ORCV report about the forces required to shift the raft - apparently it could have been moving at 77 kmh on the way out!!
It's also hard to see how a yacht could get a raft back aboard in those conditions. The report sensibly comes to the conclusion that mountings should be looked at, and that the emphasis on being able to launch rafts within 15 seconds could lead to them being too vulnerable.
If the painter of the raft had been affixed to a strongpoint as is required the raft would have inflated. The painter is designed to break or act as a safety fuse so that if the vessel it is attached to sinks prior to the raft being cut free the painter breaks rather than rip the raft apart. The force of the raft flying overboard and coming to an abrupt halt would inflate the raft and the resulting dragging of an inflated raft by a vessel would break the painter. With all due respect to the inception crew they are very fortunate men as the raft was hardly secured for a gentle sea let alone breaking seas.
In my reply I was assuming that it was thought that a line similar to a painter could have been secured around the raft pack. Otherwise, as you say, the boat is left with an inflated raft stuck alongside in heavy conditions, and as Fastnet '79 showed, that's not something that works for very long.
Agree with you about the lashings on the raft. Personally I prefer a valise in some ways.
Back in the '70s a Canadian researcher into hypothermia designed a tiny one-man raft that dramatically increased life expectancy. It didn't even self inflate but could be blown up by a swimmer. Given the improvements in inflation systems and other inflatable craft, and the continuing issues with liferafts, it could be tempting to take a one-man craft along! It would be problematic in some ways but may solve the issues of raft weight and structural problems.
Select to expand quoteChris 249 said..
/\
I read that sentence earlier and believe it to be a thinly-veiled reference to the fact that the boat should have moved further away from the lee shore, something they go into more detail about in another section (7.10.6 onwards).
The previous sentence indicates that the boat had already retired and was using its motor at that point - several hours before the liferaft went. The point is that there no one thought it was "seen fit to continue racing" after the liferaft was lost, because the boat had turned on its engine and retired from the race hours before the raft was lost.
Also, one would expect that a report of this nature would be fairly clear and not require a lot of reading between the lines, particularly given that in some sections (such as the one following 7.10.6) it goes into specific detail about poor decisions. It was an interesting report with very good information. It does look as though perhaps even more expense may be loaded onto offshore racing, therefore further reducing the number of racers. One wonders when it will get to the stage where races don't have enough entries to continue. With the greatest of respect for the authors one wonders, for example, how the "rescue swimmer" idea will work; if the swimmer has to have a wetsuit (as I assume they would) and it has to fit well enough to allow them to swim adequately then how many thick wetsuits will each boat have to provide? The chances of having fit crew who are good swimmers, not needed for some other specific duty AND similar enough in size to share wetsuits would seem pretty slim - especially on a boat like TryBooking which had only 4 crew.
Sure, one can say that dangers should always be minimised, but at the end of the day is it better to keep loading on the expense and further reduce the number of competitors?
One issue that I don't think has been raised is that many rescues (like this one) are carried out by nearby competing yachts. If further expense and complication reduces the number of rescuers then how will that affect overall safety?
I must have missed the bit in the report where they radioed in that they were retiring as is required by SI's. The motor will be run almost continually for charging batteries, didn't specify that it was in gear. However given that they had retired they should have been going the other way. No one in their right mind will bash into a storm given the option of running downhill with a storm jib or bare poles. Upwind was a nightmare that lead to the loss of life raft and vessel. Downwind would have been cup of cocoa under autopilot. My boat is a Beneteau First 44.7.
Just stumbled on this forum after searching for John Kowalik on the net. The last time I spoke to John I was flying the helicopter that tried to rescue him from Bass Strait on July 30th. I had to tell him to reactivate his beacon as try as we might, we just couldnt get him off his boat with an acceptable level of safety.
In situations such as this with a wild sea and a small yacht swaying about, a winch directly onto the yacht is not feasible as the paramedic being winched will very likely become entangled in the rigging or collide with the vessel structure. During the winch the pilot is unable to see the winch target and relies on the skill of the winch operator to "hold" him over the yacht via rapid voice instructions. We would normally ask John to board his liferaft and stream it out from the back of his yacht. The paramedic is then lowered close to the raft in reasonable safety. Unfortunately I understand Johns liferaft had already been lost and the small dinghy on top of his cabin was unsuitable. We were left with asking John to jump into the sea when the paramedic had managed to swim close to the back of his yacht. This is a nerve racking procedure because for some seconds John would be left, untethered, in the open ocean. We were unable to get our paramedic near enough to the rear of the boat for this to occur.
It is interesting to note the power of the media in these incidents. I was involved in a winch rescue in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart yacht race to the yacht Stand Aside (I have done a fair bit of this work over 3 decades). This was filmed by the ABC helicopter and subsequently our paramedic, Peter, became a celebrity, gave talks around the world and wrote a book. All well deserved. July 30th task comes along...no media, no dramatic footage, nothing. And yet our paramedic, Rod, gave everything he had and a little more ! We tried 3 times. After the first effort Rod was so exhausted he couldnt talk when we got him back into the cabin. Real courage and grit unrecognized. Hope John has recovered from his ordeal.
Peter Leigh
3 Cheers to all helicopter crews assisting in rescuing lives in such conditions!
I endever not to be in this situation but can only imagine the relief one feels when man and machine are there to save your life.
Thanks for dropping in with the actual true stated facts.
Regards
@Peterleigh, John has left Geelong and I believe travelled to Queensland to fulfill his promise, enabled by the likes of yourself, to meet his grand daughter. The efforts of the swimmer Rod, his courage and grit are recognised, perhaps not in the media spotlight but recognised or at least appreciated nonetheless.
Thanks
Frant
Select to expand quotepeterleigh said..
Just stumbled on this forum after searching for John Kowalik on the net. The last time I spoke to John I was flying the helicopter that tried to rescue him from Bass Strait on July 30th. I had to tell him to reactivate his beacon as try as we might, we just couldnt get him off his boat with an acceptable level of safety.
In situations such as this with a wild sea and a small yacht swaying about, a winch directly onto the yacht is not feasible as the paramedic being winched will very likely become entangled in the rigging or collide with the vessel structure. During the winch the pilot is unable to see the winch target and relies on the skill of the winch operator to "hold" him over the yacht via rapid voice instructions. We would normally ask John to board his liferaft and stream it out from the back of his yacht. The paramedic is then lowered close to the raft in reasonable safety. Unfortunately I understand Johns liferaft had already been lost and the small dinghy on top of his cabin was unsuitable. We were left with asking John to jump into the sea when the paramedic had managed to swim close to the back of his yacht. This is a nerve racking procedure because for some seconds John would be left, untethered, in the open ocean. We were unable to get our paramedic near enough to the rear of the boat for this to occur.
It is interesting to note the power of the media in these incidents. I was involved in a winch rescue in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart yacht race to the yacht Stand Aside (I have done a fair bit of this work over 3 decades). This was filmed by the ABC helicopter and subsequently our paramedic, Peter, became a celebrity, gave talks around the world and wrote a book. All well deserved. July 30th task comes along...no media, no dramatic footage, nothing. And yet our paramedic, Rod, gave everything he had and a little more ! We tried 3 times. After the first effort Rod was so exhausted he couldnt talk when we got him back into the cabin. Real courage and grit unrecognized. Hope John has recovered from his ordeal.
Peter Leigh
Well said Peter.
Peter Leigh I hope we never have to meet, but saying thanks isn't enough to show the appreciation for what you guys do.
We often don't know half of what goes on.
In reading this thread, I've been wondering what is happening to the boat in the meantime.
Did it have AIS fitted/activated, as I've never seen any location?
I have friends who were sailing from Geelong at around the same time, although they were possibly further toward refuge when the rescue occurred.
