Technique question: Bottom turns

Out at Flinders, taking off on approx head-high waves, getting up to 25 km/hr or more (according to Search GPS watch), I often have trouble pulling off a fast bottom turn. It feels really stiff. I try to lean in but it doesn't always feel like the board wants to turn and sometimes I recover by using the paddle as an outrigger. At lower speed, no worries. So, is it:

1. Me - being a pussy and not committing (digging the rail) hard enough?
2. Me - not having my back foot back far enough (although I do try to get it back)?
3. Me - not having my back foot close enough to the rail?
4. The fins. I am using C-drives now, but I feel like I had the same challenge with the standard fins
5. The board - I am riding an Acid 8'10 116 L and I am 93 kegs.
6. Something else?

back foot back, drive thru the front leg, burn that quad, engage that rail, eyes head and front shoulder facing where u want to go, paddle out for balance and pivot point

Can of worms where everyone will have an opinion :)

Sups are hard to bottom turn when going fast on fat sloping waves. When the wave draws off the reef and has a flat area at the bottom it is much easier. Engaging the whole rail is the key not just the back third. Moving your back foot to the side of the board helps.
Not a real big wave but sort of shows it.

Thanks Caution and Obi John - that's great information. I have always wondered what my front leg was supposed to do... I think you are absolutely right, I am trying to do too much with my back leg and my front leg just goes for the ride. I know on the speeed I was just pivoting on the tail, and I know sometimes I feel like I am pivoting on the Acid - although on the Acid I have made more of a conscious effort to use more of the rail. But I don't think I have felt burning my front quad - I sure feel it in the rear quad.

And yes, I do think my paddle is closer to my back foot than front foot. In fact, I found some video from big left and I think sometimes I am just trying to squeeze down on the rail rather than going for a full blooded turn. Hard to tell how often I do it that way...

Thanks again for your help.

Always 2 and 3 for me. Sometimes I adjust my feet mid turn. But I ride 10' 6" most of the time.

I second the 2 piece of advice given byobijohn:
- flex both your legs, for a squat "coiled" position beforehand
- use bigger side fins and smaller rear fin(s) than prone surfers would use. I use Al Merrick twin fin sides, and I basically bought a central rear fin in all the different sizes to experiment: for waist high waves, the al merrick trailer is great, for shoulder high, an FCS Accelerator in size "Grommet" works well, for bigger waves, a Reactor medium, etc...
Also, for quad rears, using symmetrically foiled fins like the gerry lopez rears give less bite but a smoother rail to rail transition that could help.
You may try to keep your C-Drive fronts and switch to a smaller normal fin in the rear.

And I would add a 3rd:
- make your board turn around you. At speed, when you lean inside the turn, the board will react instantly and come back under you too soon, actually making you go upright rather than leaning inside the turn. The impression is that the board "doesnt want to turn": you engage the turn, but the board goes flat again and tracks straight. The trick is, for a regular bottom turn (a turn to your right) is to begin by a small turn to the left, letting your body fall to the right. Once your body is well banked, engage the turn and make the board turn to the right, the feeling should be that the board is following a circle around your body.
If you look at videos, this is something that good surfers do unconsciously. It is quite subtle, but it is there.

I have edited a paddlewoo pic to show it: I added a blue line for the pre-turn wake, and a green line to show the slight left turn to let the body fall into the turn:


See also the step #3 in the backside bottom turn at twitter.com/erik_antonson

Also the turn below at 0:24 . I was forced to look into these issues in some depth, as it is needed to engage proper turns with wide boards that I love (I am addicted to their speed). You can also see the immediate sanction when your foot in not on the leash plug in the top turns with them :-)

Thanks Colas - your tips, photos, and vid really help. I look forward to getting out there and trying all the tips. (I actually had a great session earlier today, but the waves were shoulder high and I find it all much easier than when the waves are much bigger and more powerful.) I will also try changing the rear fin to see if that makes a difference, but I know I need to make changes to my technique. That progressionsession.com paddlewoo site is pretty handy! There are some really good tips there.

Ah yes I have trouble with this myself ..but have kinda worked it out ..bigger fins in bigger waves give you lift
you don't want this ...you want the board to sit down and bite in ..smaller rear fin or fins will help.
also I'm always trying to slow my board down before turning .more weight on the rear foot ,with bent knees .will do this .
i have A 9.1 and 8'8 .i find the longer board much better in bigger wave s ...no brainier really .
with 7 fronts 3 rears ,

A change of fins might be the answer .

Great stuff Colas. Your pic and video really illustrates what I was trying to say, but I was too lazy to add the visuals like you did.
Your comment helped me to understand something that I like to do. Many times I set up my takeoff so that it starts with a heel fade back into the peak before the first frontside bottom turn. I knew that I always liked the feel of it but I never thought about how that little backside fading turn helped to set up the lean for the frontside turn. Its a common move in skiing when starting a run to make a slight pre-turn in the opposite direction before the first full turn, because this aims the skis out from under our body and gets our center if mass quickly inside the new turn so that the skis can turn out around us. For others that ride motorcycles, I guess its a lot like how we steer the handlebars towards the opposite direction we want the bike to turn, which causes the bike to start tipping over and lean in the direction of the intended turn. Its something we all do instinctively, but nothing I thought about until I had to pass a tough riding course. Amazing that I never really thought about it until now when surfing. Thanks for that.

Lots of good advice above.
Some additional thoughts:

Surfing is a mind game.
Much of surfing is limited to what you see yourself doing.

Most people "protect" their ride.... the main goal being "don't fall"
Timid surfing never produces exceptional results.

Improvement can be done quite simply.... 1 single step at a time.
Decide what you want to do..... harder turn, better paddle handling, more vertical.....
Pick one
Before taking a wave.... commit to doing ONE thing.... forget everything else:
I'm gonna do a solid committed turn
ok
Go into the next wave with only that thought
"I'm gonna coil and throw a big committed turn, out over the rail, using my paddle"

Do NOT care if you fall or screw up the wave....
all advancement comes from failures and what you learn from each one.

Each time you will learn more of what the turn feels like, and take that into your next attempt.

My best advice to people who are reluctant to look foolish or mess up a good wave:
Surf as usual...... BUT, when the wave is over, drop down, out in front of the wave and turn as hard as you can, to throw your board over the back of the wave. (with proper safe zone in the area)

This is a "free" way to learn how a carving turn feels.
Eventually, adapt that turn to mid wave and voila!

I find pictures helpful












Throwing your board over the back of the wave is an easy way to learn how to turn hard.

supthecreek, excellent point: even if we know what to do in theory, often the challenge is to find how to put it in practice, it is often useful to set ourselves a goal that will make things click in place. For me, for instance, it is to try to squat a la spiderman/stinkbug that helps me the most for the bottom turns.

Johndesu "I would like to see you Colas surfing on a larger more powerful wave", actually, I am a bit like cantSUPenough, above some size, I do not have the commitment nor technique to manage handling wide boards, so I kind of "cheat" by resorting to narrower boards and/or bigger rear fin(s) (and smaller front fins) and/or straighter outlines, all things that slow down the board response to a roll and let my body lean to the inside without immediately doing a sharp turn. Or I just place myself more forward on the board for the same effect.
But I must say that when waves are big I now tend to grab the foil and have fun in sheltered spots, as big swells here is what creates these long non-breaking waves that are so insane to foil on.

An example what not to do: On my bottom turn I did not squat and thus did not perform the "counter turn" and you can see how the wide board stays flat. This half-assed tun would have worked on a narrow board.

A couple of thoughts. I agree with Bob's (and Catherine's) conclusions about learning to bottom-turn by turning so hard that you go off the back of the wave*, however, from what I have learned in this thread, you can do that the "right way" (using the rail and carving) or the "wrong way" (using the tail and pivoting). My personal challenge is to do this with the rail, and do it at high speed (on bigger, more powerful waves).

* that's actually where this started for me a while ago when Tardy (Phil) urged me to "go vertical" - if you aim to go off the back of the wave that's the closest you can get to "going vertical" - but you have to be balanced so that you can actually turn and come back down