Looking for any experience on early planing on a wind foil vs. a wing foil.
Curious if anyone compared on the same day/conditions...side by side "wing vs. sail"
EX. "Wizard 125 / 6.0m Sail / Infinity 99 foil" vs. "Wizard 125 / 6.0m Wing / Infinity 99 foil"
Which kit planes first? and longest?? Trying to figure out if which yield's more foil riding??
THX
Wind foil is more efficient at the moment in my opinion. If you are looking to get going early and fly longer through lulls, a large freeride foil with a foil specific sail will work well. Alternatively a big racing wing (900+) and foil specific race sail will also work well.
A better question would be "Who can sail longer"? The harness is a wonderful piece of equipment; even foiling. Your time on the water is much more important = satisfaction.
Select to expand quoteallesad said..
Looking for any experience on early planing on a wind foil vs. a wing foil.
Curious if anyone compared on the same day/conditions...side by side "wing vs. sail"
EX. "Wizard 125 / 6.0m Sail / Infinity 99 foil" vs. "Wizard 125 / 6.0m Wing / Infinity 99 foil"
Which kit planes first? and longest?? Trying to figure out if which yield's more foil riding??
THX
Just spent 4 days camping and wind foiling in the straits of Mackinaw. A friend who is younger and in better shape had a Kalama Custom foil board, 5'8" and 117(?) liters with a GoFoil Maliko 200 and an Ozone Wasp 6.0. I was using my Levitator 160, SS i84 foil with a 6.0 Sailworks Flyer. We were out Saturday in fairly light conditions and I was able to get on foil and stay on foil much easier than him, until the wind picked up. Then it was pretty equal.
To me, a big advantage of the wingy thingy is it's range of wind. My friend uses his from 12-30mph. I change sails 3 times in that range currently. 
Excav8ter, THX. Thats exactly what I heard last week from a rep at Mackite Boardsports in MI. Wings have huge range.
I foil on a 1100 Moses and can plane real easy, buy today I had to change from a 5.5 to a 7.0 when the wind dropped 7-17 mph
Select to expand quoteallesad said..
Excav8ter, THX. Thats exactly what I heard last week from a rep at Mackite Boardsports in MI. Wings have huge range.
I foil on a 1100 Moses and can plane real easy, buy today I had to change from a 5.5 to a 7.0 when the wind dropped 7-17 mph
MACkite is where I get most of my stuff! I live 20 minutes away from them. They have been great do deal with.
I use a wing and windsurf of the same size in the same range, for example a 4.9 windsurf sail covers 10-25 knots for me (more in the gusts) on the foil, a 5.0 wing flies around similarly early allthough I haven't figured out the top end. The big difference is in the rest of the kit though, with my wavesail I use a 105L board and 900cm2 wing of 80cm wingspan, for wingfoiling I use an 85L wingboard with 1780cm2 wing of 110cm wingspan.
So with the same foil I'd say the wavesail definately gets going earlier, although with such sizes of foil it doesnt really matter anymore I think since you can pump start them by supping if you have the skill... I regularly use my wingfoil foil for dockstart foilpumping without any wind, so early flight and using the wind... not sure, might be more skill dependent.
Early flight is 85% skill anyway, so dont stare blind on kit. Also, big foils dont necessarily fly earlier. F-One has bigger foils, 2200cm2 with 110cm wingspan as largest (F-One Gravity), but I've tested them side by side and I'm a lot more efficient with the smaller surface area foil of the same wingspan (F-One Phantom) because due to the profile flatness and higher aspect ratio its a lot more efficient to pump. I feel wings much over 1800cm2 lack acceleration to keep going after getting up.
Btw I'm 92Kg.
I've been out windfoiling a bunch of times with my wife learning to wing foil. She's a lot lighter than I am (I'm 195 lb). When windsurfing, we mere evenly matched when she was on 4.0-4.2, 89 l, and I was on 5.0, 110 l. Foiling, she'd be on a i76, 4.2, 90 l while I was on i84, 5.0, 117 l.
We have only one 4.2 wing so far. (F-One). She's been using it with i84 and a 115l l JP SUP while I was on an i84, 117 l with anything from 5.0 to 6.5. I had to fight for control in gusts in a few sessions, she never had an issue. She was usually foiling as much as I was, sometimes more. She's had one session winging on the i76 in stronger winds and liked it much better than the i84 (which she likes a lot for winging, less for windfoiling).
Another big difference on the wing is that she is now usually the one on the water longer. Windfoiling, she used to come off the water before me, even though she used the harness all the time, and I use it only occasionally. With the wing, I usually stop earlier. Her longest session so far was 4 hours (without break), and her only complaint was that she started getting a blister. No harness with the wing, she does not see the point.
I'm very impressed with the range of the wing. I can foil on my 5.6 in ~12 knots, and stay on the water in 25+ knot gusts, but it's a bit survival mode at the upper end (partly due to 3 ft voodoo chop in higher wind). Her range on the wind foil was much lower, since she did not like to be powered up on the foil. With the wing, it's no issue at all so far. The only small issue was when we had very shifty winds, where the wind would often change direction by 45 degrees and strength within less than a second. The wing sometimes would start fluttering if she was going upwind. I'd often get backwinded by the same change, or at least have some wild up and downs.
So after about 10 sessions on the wing (and 50+ windfoiling), she has about the same lower range with a one size larger foil, but a much larger upper range. We'll have to get a larger wing for me to try winging, because there's no way she'll let me use the 4.2 in the kind of wind I'd need to get going on it. It's a bit of a wait, though, since wings are in short supply in the US right now, and we want a specific one.
Select to expand quoteallesad said..
Excav8ter, THX. Thats exactly what I heard last week from a rep at Mackite Boardsports in MI. Wings have huge range.
I foil on a 1100 Moses and can plane real easy, buy today I had to change from a 5.5 to a 7.0 when the wind dropped 7-17 mph
Yeah, I am thinking of getting a smaller front wing for my AFS Wind95 foil so when the wind picks up over 15 knots I can swap out the 800F wing (1120cm2) with a 700F (779cm2) and keep the same sail, and if the wind drops I can just switch the wing back to the 800F.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Wings foil up sooner than windfoil, but might take more athletics and fitness.
Interesting. That goes everything I have seen and been told.
Granted, I have never tried wing foiling, but a close friend who is doing it says light wind is not fun because of the effort required to keep the wing in the air, until he finally gets on foil.
SunsetSailboards is now only 185 lbs
4.0 is his only wing. He foils on a i99 in wind from 6-25+ knots.
He started on 4 and 5 meter wings. Promptly poked a hole in the 5, so used the 4 for maybe 40 of his 1st 45 days winging.
Fixed his 5 maybe May, but by then found his 4 pumps better, is handier, and is lighter.
He foils up when other 165 lb guys are still kneeling and slogging.
He foils up when I am still slogging on a 5.0 sail and Naish 1220.
Otherwise, of the 7 or so foilers I normally foil with, I am always on the smallest sail.
2 other wingers on 5's foil up before anyone on 5 windfoiling by pumping more efficiently.
No doubt, IF IF you can pump, the wing can be pumped up onto a foil because it's light and can unweighted your feet just like kitesurfing.
These are not 60 year old fat guys like me.
They are athletic 40 year olds.
I've seen athletic 17 year olds pump a 4 meter wing up onto foil in less than 7 knots and even jump in maybe 15 knot winds. Of course, those 2 guys might weigh 135 lbs.
These are not 60 year old fat guys like me.
They are athletic 40 year olds.
I've seen athletic 17 year olds pump a 4 meter wing up onto foil in less than 7 knots and even jump in maybe 15 knot winds. Of course, those 2 guys might weigh 135 lbs.
Sorry about double post. Was locked into "post" and even turned off website but still locked onto "post" when I logged in again.
OK, I'm 71. Still ride a 85 liter board and 4.7 in 15-21 knot wind, planing all the time by pumping and always faster than anyone short of former pro slalom guys on their 110 liter race slalom boards and 7.0 slalom sails. They kill me in the holes and upwind.
Windfoiling, after 80 days on Naish 1220, I switched to the 600 kitewing, and foil up almost exactly the same light 13 knots with a 4.5 sail. Takes a few more pumps in the lightest winds. 155lbs., 4/3 wetsuit always.
And still bad windfoiler.
2 days ago, 4.2 and 600 wing, was overpowered by 20 knot gusts, only able to ride upwind and downwind like a Formula board and 9.2 sail. Disgusting.
Can't seem to stay stable with board speed approaching 20 knots.
Very stable in 15 knots breeze, even one handed and looking around.
One problem might be that in the past 2 years, I still windsurf on -95 liter boards and -5.5 sails around 6 days for every one day I get to foil.
This year, maybe 90 windsurf days to 10 foil days.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
SunsetSailboards is now only 185 lbs
4.0 is his only wing. He foils on a i99 in wind from 6-25+ knots.
He started on 4 and 5 meter wings. Promptly poked a hole in the 5, so used the 4 for maybe 40 of his 1st 45 days winging.
Fixed his 5 maybe May, but by then found his 4 pumps better, is handier, and is lighter.
He foils up when other 165 lb guys are still kneeling and slogging.
He foils up when I am still slogging on a 5.0 sail and Naish 1220.
Otherwise, of the 7 or so foilers I normally foil with, I am always on the smallest sail.
2 other wingers on 5's foil up before anyone on 5 windfoiling by pumping more efficiently.
No doubt, IF IF you can pump, the wing can be pumped up onto a foil because it's light and can unweighted your feet just like kitesurfing.
I need to do a weigh in on a reliable scale. my 4m Echo has more power than the 5m original foil wing, and the top end is much better than the original 4m, and I pretty much don't like to change my equipment and just like to ride the same thing every day and try to make it work.
I actually got a 6m for myself, too, but I haven't needed it, and they are in short supply here, so I sold my personal one and will be getting another one in a couple weeks.
I find with the big front wing, I just need enough wind to pull against so I can pump the foil. I have no idea what the gust number is but I'm guessing it's in the 15mph range that is needed to get foiling on the 4m Echo.
The range of the wing thing is great. I can go from my wing setup directly to my 4.0 or 4.4 and 85l windsurfing setup. I've also been winging in SoCal when there's nobody else on the water or when the only other two are lightweights on 8.5s windsurfing).
Kite Foil racers still get up the earliest (their RAM air kites are HUGE), followed by windsurf foil racers with big 8m+ sails. Wondering what going to a bigger 6m will get me. I could pump up the Slingshot Wizard 125/i76 combo w/ a 4.0 freestyle sail in pretty light wind too. I think the big advantage w/ the wing is that you don't have ~15lbs of rig weight that needs to go up and down every time you pump the foil.
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
I think the big advantage w/ the wing is that you don't have ~15lbs of rig weight that needs to go up and down every time you pump the foil.
Kevin, what about the wing pulling upward, effectively reducing your weight? That would make the difference even larger than the rig weight. If you pump a rig, the effect is forward-sideward lift. If you pump a wing, the effect would be upward-forward lift? Or is that not an issue because the wing just carries it's own weight when you only pump the foil to get going?
Wind 8-12 knots
Wind foiler (Bob is 80 kg) on 8.5, Hypersonic board, infinity 99/48 foil
(I am 90 kg) on a V2 Sling wing 5.4, Outwit 7.6 board, infinity 99/42 foil
The light wind gap between the 2 disciplines has pretty much been bridged! I would say the 8.5 sail had a bit more grunt upwind in the light ripples but as soon as the wind picks up to 15+ then you are changing sail and the sling wing will keep going to 20+ before needing a smaller size.
I agree with Kevin that having no rig pressure/weight bearing down on the board makes it a huge advantage, you can also pump the board/foil and the wing through some seriously low wind holes. The dock foilers are just using pumping technique, so imagine having a light piece of fabric over head to add a bit more horse power.
Ist thing I ask new wingdingers...."have you kitesurfed?" A YES cuts the initial learning curve in half.
Good for the 1st 10 or so days. After that, it's talent, practice, and determination.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Ist thing I ask new wingdingers...."have you kitesurfed?" A YES cuts the initial learning curve in half.
Good for the 1st 10 or so days. After that, it's talent, practice, and determination.
that has not been my experience. i think windsurfers may have a more intuitive idea of sail steering so are able to slog easier. seeing some prone guys try for the first time, it seems clear that some sort of sail handling and steering experience helps a lot. there are exceptions of course. pretty much every good windsurfer I have put on the wing thing so far has gotten flying in the first day or two. Big board and big foil are keys IMO. I've seen a three people now try to learn on formula boards and race foils... anecdotally, I would not recommend that.
Also, for me, the Duotone wing w/ the boom flies a bit more like a kite/sail. Instead of pumping by pulling straight in w/ both arms, I fly it in a s-pattern a bit while pulling and rolling... feels like pumping a windsurf sail. For me, the Slingshot v2 pulled much differently and so the technique for getting going was different (yet also easy).
as far as the early foiling thing goes and rig weight vs vertical wing pull... everything contributes, but water is so much more dense than air, so working the foil under the water is probably more effective than working the wing in the air. Of course you have to do both. If we're talking about just getting going in lighter air, those hand wings don't really pull that hard. I think that's one of the first things anybody notices the first time they wing is like, "where's the power?"
Had a marathon session the other day at Berkeley where I wind foiled (Slingshot Freestyle 115, i76, 4.0), then winged (4.0 Echo, Sky Wing 5'4", i99), then windsurfed (Fanatic FW 85, 4.4), then winged again.... all were super fun and had different wind ranges. Best sesh was the last one late in the day when the wind dropped but the wind swell was really good and organized... shralping it up w/ a windfoiler.
I was thinking....a windsurfer who can also kite...not a kiter only.
Jonny Heiniken foil jibed his Dad's windfoil kit first try, according to Paul.
Paul has not made a foil or planing jibe in 30 sessions.
Select to expand quotesunsetsailboards said..
Had a marathon session the other day at Berkeley where I wind foiled (Slingshot Freestyle 115, i76, 4.0), then winged (4.0 Echo, Sky Wing 5'4", i99), then windsurfed (Fanatic FW 85, 4.4), then winged again....
FML. One day of wind (8-15) in the last 20 days.
That marathon day, ws 4.7 and 86 board.
Next day, 4.2. Sunday, 4.7 and 85 liters. Rode bike on Monday.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
I was thinking....a windsurfer who can also kite...not a kiter only.
Jonny Heiniken foil jibed his Dad's windfoil kit first try, according to Paul.
Paul has not made a foil or planing jibe in 30 sessions.
i kited a few times way back in like ~2002... i guess that makes me the perfect candidate. did a decent amount of time w/ the B3 kite w/ the skateboard.
I watched Seth Besse wing for the first time on a windy day (Seth was at the time the best Formula sailor in the San Francisco Bay Area, and he started kite racing after as the formula and windfoil fleet here is quite small). looked awkward and the wing flipped over a ton, but he was able to foil through a jibe his first day.
I actually foiled through my first jibe on my first run but came off the foil when I didn't know what to do... then it just went downhill from there for like 5 days. going toeside on foil was so much different than going switch windsurfing for freestyle... was so used to hiking out switch to maintain speed and power for the ducking/backwinded tricks.... doing that on the wing just meant crashing over and over again.
So yeah, maybe people with foiling, windsurfing and kiting in their backgrounds have a head start. I would also add surfing to the mix. knowing how to pump a board when a wave mushes out for me is similar to pumping a foil.
Maybe we can add skateboarding too.... weighting/unweighting the board/foil to me is a little bit like an ollie.
Need to get LeeD on the wing.... give me a time, and I'll bring you some stuff to use.
At my current novice skill level, I windfoil to increase my light wind range. I picked up a 6m Wasp, then sold it as I realised I could get going at the bottom end much easier with a windfoil than a wing. The wind foil is easier to chug around with and get back to shore in fickle conditions too. I still like the winging concept, but the reality is it doesn't suit my needs ........... yet
71 year old dog, prolly pass on any more new tricks.
Foiled for 1.5 hours yesterday, by far my longest ever session on a foil, close to double my normal time.
Then windsurfed for 3 runs...got twice the fun and enjoyment.
Apart from the wind range comparing kit, the single biggest benefactor is the ease of rigging up (packing away) and transporting around!
For wind foiling 5-35 knots.. I generally transport, 2 foil boards, 2 foils (4 wings), 4 sails, 4 masts, 2 boom, 3 extensions and mast plates, harness, spare UJ's, spare parts etc.
For winging 5-35 knots.. 2 wings (in one back pack), 1 pump, 1 board, 1 foil with 2 wings.
Now brands are bringing out good inflatable boards, so travelling with 2 large back packs will be pretty sweet
I (200#) had a great session finning with a 95L wave board and 4.7 yesterday, guys were winging with 5m wings and having an equally good time. The range with the wing appears to be a significant advantage over windfoiling.
I also travel for work a lot with sometimes limited access to space. Being able to put the board in one backpack and a rig which covers 10-25kts in another is VERY appealing.
I'll give it another year of development then look at jumping on this wagon.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said.. The range with the wing appears to be a significant advantage over windfoiling.
I don't agree.
I can use a big foil like a windwinger and happily sail in 10-25 knots with a 4.5m - depowering in the bigger gusts just like they do.
Reckon ocean windfoiling has a higher performance level than windwinging - we use smaller foil wings and have more power on tap, so are faster downwind,upwind and carve harder.
Changing sail size to facilitate that performance advantage makes sense - but it's not necessary 
I won't even try to answer the original question.
However, we have to remember that a wingfoiling wing exerts a lot of force UPWARD (so do kites).
Regular sails exert their force only HORIZONTALLY.
Draw your own conclusions.
