I am glad I asked the question. I sail in a area with no Winging.... THX to everyone for weighing in. What I've learned from all this is..so far
*Wings have a wider wind range than sails...Wings weight less and take less space
...but Sails are more efficient..... have more lower end grunt..... plus you can slog home
Who planes first?...it's based on pumping skill and the size of the foil (water is more dense than air). Wing vertical component is great but so is the horizontal component of the sail.
If I had to score this....
Range - Wing
Early Planing - TIE..based on skill
Top Speed - Sail
Easy of travel - Wing
Cost - depends, (many variables + degree of quality & your inventory). But wings seem to be bargain (no boom, no universal, no mast, ect.)
Riding - It depends, Wing can go switch-stance with ease, But sailing no hands with boom is nice, no leashes,ect. Both can pump the foil
Longevity - TBD on Wings (patchable), but Sail Rigs can last a long time.
I think I've talk myself in "a wing"
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..Grantmac said.. The range with the wing appears to be a significant advantage over windfoiling.
I don't agree.
I can use a big foil like a windwinger and happily sail in 10-25 knots with a 4.5m - depowering in the bigger gusts just like they do.
Reckon ocean windfoiling has a higher performance level than windwinging - we use smaller foil wings and have more power on tap, so are faster downwind,upwind and carve harder.
Changing sail size to facilitate that performance advantage makes sense - but it's not necessary 
Hi Azymuth,
I am curious, what wing are you using to make a 4.5m work in 10kts? Is it enjoyable? I find at 185lbs and an Infinity 84cm I have to work hard to get my 125L board going with a 7.3, more so even with a light chop.
Thanks!
Select to expand quoteallesad said..
I am glad I asked the question. I sail in a area with no Winging.... THX to everyone for weighing in. What I've learned from all this is..so far
*Wings have a wider wind range than sails...Wings weight less and take less space
...but Sails are more efficient..... have more lower end grunt..... plus you can slog home
Who planes first?...it's based on pumping skill and the size of the foil (water is more dense than air). Wing vertical component is great but so is the horizontal component of the sail.
If I had to score this....
Range - Wing
Early Planing - TIE..based on skill
Top Speed - Sail
Easy of travel - Wing
Cost - depends, (many variables + degree of quality & your inventory). But wings seem to be bargain (no boom, no universal, no mast, ect.)
Riding - It depends, Wing can go switch-stance with ease, But sailing no hands with boom is nice, no leashes,ect. Both can pump the foil
Longevity - TBD on Wings (patchable), but Sail Rigs can last a long time.
I think I've talk myself in "a wing"
you forgot the most important thing... Fun - that will be up to the end user... some will prefer the wing, others will prefer windfoiling
agree easier to slog a wind foil than wing (at least more relaxing), however when the wind goes to approaches zero and you need to paddle back, the wing is much easier (not dragging a sail/boom). One of our launches is in a cove and you have to slog straight downwind to go around a jetty.... we foil back upwind as far as possible to the boat ramp but the last 30-60 feet or so are often a swim straight upwind in almost no breeze. ironically, this is where a regular windsurf board is the best as I can tack up the cove back and forth (usually backwinding on one side). my windfoil board did not slog upwind well and once i'm off the foil on my wing board the transitions are problematic.. although w/ the wing I can pump just the board and foil to go straight into the wind, but it's on goofy/starboard, and that's my bad side.
there are some kite foil racers here who are going really fast on wings w/ race foils.... this might be on course racing points of sail, but they're going fast enough that the windsurf foil racers have taken notice and some of them are winging now.
Bear in mind this dude easily tacks an 86 liter board and he weighs 185lbs. plus a full wetsuit. Can't be normal.
Yeah, most of the course racers are trying the wing.
I wonder if JonnyH and DaniellaM are following suit? Both kite foil champs.
Select to expand quoteallesad said..
I am glad I asked the question. I sail in a area with no Winging.... THX to everyone for weighing in. What I've learned from all this is..so far
*Wings have a wider wind range than sails...Wings weight less and take less space
...but Sails are more efficient..... have more lower end grunt..... plus you can slog home
Who planes first?...it's based on pumping skill and the size of the foil (water is more dense than air). Wing vertical component is great but so is the horizontal component of the sail.
If I had to score this....
Range - Wing
Early Planing - TIE..based on skill
Top Speed - Sail
Easy of travel - Wing
Cost - depends, (many variables + degree of quality & your inventory). But wings seem to be bargain (no boom, no universal, no mast, ect.)
Riding - It depends, Wing can go switch-stance with ease, But sailing no hands with boom is nice, no leashes,ect. Both can pump the foil
Longevity - TBD on Wings (patchable), but Sail Rigs can last a long time.
I think I've talk myself in "a wing"
UPWIND ABILITY?
Since I started foiling I have begun to explore the suroundings. So much more satifactory compared to just going back and forth, as was all I did before. I suspekt windfoil wins?
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Bear in mind this dude easily tacks an 86 liter board and he weighs 185lbs. plus a full wetsuit. Can't be normal.
Yeah, most of the course racers are trying the wing.
I wonder if JonnyH and DaniellaM are following suit? Both kite foil champs.
John H is definitely on the wing train. don't know about Daniela, but Vlad is for sure winging now. Don't know about Linda but I suspect yes.
Select to expand quoteDjungelman said..
UPWIND ABILITY?
Since I started foiling I have begun to explore the suroundings. So much more satifactory compared to just going back and forth, as was all I did before. I suspekt windfoil wins?
Depends on the setup. A full racing foil, board, and big sail will be impossible to beat. I've read reports that wings don't get the same upwind angles as foils, but it's not what I see with our setups. My wife on her wing can always get at least the same angles that I can get windfoiling. Getting the board tilted is easier with a wing, since you don't have the mast foot trying to level the board, or even raise the windward rail. In most sessions, we go upwind a mile, often more than once. My wife on the wing often gets there first, even though she's slower. I still get there a lot faster than when windsurfing, even though my average windsurfing speeds are ~ 50% higher than on the foil.
What I hate about windfoiling is that it's angles when powered are similar to Formula sailing.
I like going across the wind at speed.
I hate ending up waay upwind and have to feather back to the launch.
Flying is ok, but maxing out speed on the edge is more rewarding for me.
Switched from windsurf wing to kitewing, half the sq cams. Gained maybe 2 mph at the top, same angles..
LeeD, we all got different taste :) As we say in Sweden:
The taste is like an ass, split!
Select to expand quoteDjungelman said..
LeeD, we all got different taste :) As we say in Sweden:
The taste is like an ass, split!
That is hard core, even for vikings
Boardsurfr. The reason I asked is because Im planning on buying a new rig, sails etc. This is the tenth season Im using the stuff. A general id? is that a wing could possibly replace either the biggest or the smallest sail in a quiver. What one would save on a sail and possibly a mast one could spend on a Wing.
Select to expand quoteDjungelman said..
Boardsurfr. The reason I asked is because Im planning on buying a new rig, sails etc. This is the tenth season Im using the stuff. A general id? is that a wing could possibly replace either the biggest or the smallest sail in a quiver. What one would save on a sail and possibly a mast one could spend on a Wing.
Makes sense, but is a bit problematic. Beginner wingers will often progress fastest on a medium-sized wing in medium conditions. You're less efficient when you start, so you need a bit more wind, which also helps standing up. If you replace the smallest sail in your quiver, you'll have a lot of chop at most places, or offshore wind. At many places, you'd also have few sessions a year where it's that windy, which makes progressing a bit harder.
On the larger end, big wings can be a bit harder to handle, since you can't have them drag in the water. But if you're lucky enough to live at a windy place where your biggest sail is a 5.0 or so, that replacing the biggest sail with a wing should not be a problem. I'm planning to get a 5.4, which is roughly the biggest sail I like using when windfoiling. I'd expect that to be equivalent to a 5.0 initially, and eventually cover the wind range where I'd windfoil on 4.7 to 5.6... if I end up liking the wing.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
What I hate about windfoiling is that it's angles when powered are similar to Formula sailing.
I like going across the wind at speed.
I hate ending up waay upwind and have to feather back to the launch.
Flying is ok, but maxing out speed on the edge is more rewarding for me.
Switched from windsurf wing to kitewing, half the sq cams. Gained maybe 2 mph at the top, same angles..
This guy is definitely not going upwind. There are plenty of people who push it really hard across the wind. And, downwind. If you aren't pushing it across the wind or feathering downwind, that's a skill thing. I'm not saying that as a put down but to encourage you to push those boundaries.
Source: www.instagram.com/p/CC0EjlTpADS/
Bonus footage: Nico Prien slalom practice. Look for Sebastien Kordel who is foiling with a blue GA just behind him around 3:00. It's a 360 video so you'll have to pan around.
Wow! Sebastien is really fast on the foil. In those particular conditions the foil in the right hands is very competitive to the fin!
They've been running foil against fin in the gorge cup for a couple of years now and the foils have been winning almost exclusively.
It's a standard slalom race.
They don't win on the straights they win at the Mark's. So straight line at speed isn't the foil's strength, its VMG and energy retention in the turns. Which is basically where it's best for freeriding as well.
Observation for FRA192.
I get the weight shift foward to counter lift of wing at speed.
His front foot is inline with the rail of the board. Its not at any angle relative to the board.
Is this normal or SOP for sailing across the wind?
Select to expand quoteCYVRWoody said..
Observation for FRA192.
I get the weight shift foward to counter lift of wing at speed.
His front foot is inline with the rail of the board. Its not at any angle relative to the board.
Is this normal or SOP for sailing across the wind?
In gusty conditions, I like having the front foot pointing (almost) straight forward, since it gives you a bit more room for shifting your weight forward when you need to.
I haven't seen anyone on a wing get anywhere near the speed and height upwind of what the guys are getting on race foils and foil race sails. We've got guys here locally that are cracking 32-37 knots across the breeze on race foils. I haven't seen a wing get close to that. Maybe they do, but I've never seen it.
Select to expand quoteDarrylG said..
Here a few Windfoil upwind angles for you
Very nice. Super-tight upwinders 
And no messy drunken squiggles
www.riwmag.com/vok-e-iachino-i-vincitori-della-rrd-one-hour-classic/?lang=en
RRD One Hour Classic on Lake Garda. Jordy Vonk comes close to taking the Foil/Slalom double but Matteo Iachino holds him off to win the slalom. I'd say the foil goes respectably fast. 
Mirage.
When I see a foiler or winger come close to my speed across the wind, I'll look closer.
Right now, Gorge Cup is a pure downwind race, and every other "race" is just course slalom.
That's upwind and downwind, like Formula.
My 600 sq cm front wing is maybe 7 mph off my freeride board speeds. That's 4 5/8" chord by around 64cm wingspan.
Watch how quickly this girl gets up and foiling in what looks like very little wind.
I've asked the same question myself. I've done some pretty extensive testing keeping it at least an Orange to Tangerine. I've gone out w my JP 7' SUP foil board w a Naish 2000 w a 75 cm mast and swapped out back and forth between my 5.3 Ezzy Wave sail and my Fone 5.0 wing. I place the foil all the way forward in the box as I normally ride when winging. Normally for wind foiling I'm 1/3 from the front, but trying to keep things apples to apples.
Upwind: I ran the same course on the sandbars and reached my upwind mark in 4 tacks on the sail and 6-8 tacks on the wing. Wind sail clearly more aerodynamic and if you do both sports like I do, you can feel the wing hit the wall if you pinch to hard.
Downwind: Angling downwind. I'd call it a tie. The windsurfing (WWF Style) does allow me to bank harder as I can leverage against the sail on both tacks. But I'll call it a tie as the wing can go to Zero resistance which lets you go into full on SUP Surf foil mode.
Straight downwind is interesting. Wind-foiling the clue will swing one way or the other and it can offer some resistance. However, as noted in other post, the wing can backwind you as well if you travel faster than wind speed.
Pumping: Wing wins here, whether I'm on my dedicated Wing board or in the side by side testing. You can definitely pump your wind foil board but it's just not as efficient. I've done test w both where I drop the sail to one hand on either port or starboard tack and drop the wing to one hand and the wing wins.
Rigging and Derigging: No Brainer.
Fun: It's a tie for me. If I want to travel from the launch spot to get to some rolling swells or waves the wind foil is the choice. If I'm playing right out front, I like the wing.
Wind Dies: Def easier to shlog back on wind foil in 5-7 mph of wind, especially if there's chop and current. Factor in that my Fone Foil Board is 5'8".....ugggggg.
On a separate note. I'm really surprised at how few Manf's offer their wing foil boards in a 6'6" to 6'8" w windsurf insert. If Naish or Quatro did I'd buy in a heart beat. For now I'm wearing out my JP 7' Foil Sup. ;)
Select to expand quoteShlogger said..
I've asked the same question myself. I've done some pretty extensive testing keeping it at least an Orange to Tangerine. I've gone out w my JP 7' SUP foil board w a Naish 2000 w a 75 cm mast and swapped out back and forth between my 5.3 Ezzy Wave sail and my Fone 5.0 wing. I place the foil all the way forward in the box as I normally ride when winging. Normally for wind foiling I'm 1/3 from the front, but trying to keep things apples to apples.
Upwind: I ran the same course on the sandbars and reached my upwind mark in 4 tacks on the sail and 6-8 tacks on the wing. Wind sail clearly more aerodynamic and if you do both sports like I do, you can feel the wing hit the wall if you pinch to hard.
Downwind: Angling downwind. I'd call it a tie. The windsurfing (WWF Style) does allow me to bank harder as I can leverage against the sail on both tacks. But I'll call it a tie as the wing can go to Zero resistance which lets you go into full on SUP Surf foil mode.
Straight downwind is interesting. Wind-foiling the clue will swing one way or the other and it can offer some resistance. However, as noted in other post, the wing can backwind you as well if you travel faster than wind speed.
Pumping: Wing wins here, whether I'm on my dedicated Wing board or in the side by side testing. You can definitely pump your wind foil board but it's just not as efficient. I've done test w both where I drop the sail to one hand on either port or starboard tack and drop the wing to one hand and the wing wins.
Rigging and Derigging: No Brainer.
Fun: It's a tie for me. If I want to travel from the launch spot to get to some rolling swells or waves the wind foil is the choice. If I'm playing right out front, I like the wing.
Wind Dies: Def easier to shlog back on wind foil in 5-7 mph of wind, especially if there's chop and current. Factor in that my Fone Foil Board is 5'8".....ugggggg.
On a separate note. I'm really surprised at how few Manf's offer their wing foil boards in a 6'6" to 6'8" w windsurf insert. If Naish or Quatro did I'd buy in a heart beat. For now I'm wearing out my JP 7' Foil Sup. ;)
New Goya fits that bill: goyawindsurfing.com/boards/y2021/airbolt-pro/
Select to expand quoteShlogger said..
I've asked the same question myself. I've done some pretty extensive testing keeping it at least an Orange to Tangerine. I've gone out w my JP 7' SUP foil board w a Naish 2000 w a 75 cm mast and swapped out back and forth between my 5.3 Ezzy Wave sail and my Fone 5.0 wing. I place the foil all the way forward in the box as I normally ride when winging. Normally for wind foiling I'm 1/3 from the front, but trying to keep things apples to apples.
Upwind: I ran the same course on the sandbars and reached my upwind mark in 4 tacks on the sail and 6-8 tacks on the wing. Wind sail clearly more aerodynamic and if you do both sports like I do, you can feel the wing hit the wall if you pinch to hard.
Downwind: Angling downwind. I'd call it a tie. The windsurfing (WWF Style) does allow me to bank harder as I can leverage against the sail on both tacks. But I'll call it a tie as the wing can go to Zero resistance which lets you go into full on SUP Surf foil mode.
Straight downwind is interesting. Wind-foiling the clue will swing one way or the other and it can offer some resistance. However, as noted in other post, the wing can backwind you as well if you travel faster than wind speed.
Pumping: Wing wins here, whether I'm on my dedicated Wing board or in the side by side testing. You can definitely pump your wind foil board but it's just not as efficient. I've done test w both where I drop the sail to one hand on either port or starboard tack and drop the wing to one hand and the wing wins.
Rigging and Derigging: No Brainer.
Fun: It's a tie for me. If I want to travel from the launch spot to get to some rolling swells or waves the wind foil is the choice. If I'm playing right out front, I like the wing.
Wind Dies: Def easier to shlog back on wind foil in 5-7 mph of wind, especially if there's chop and current. Factor in that my Fone Foil Board is 5'8".....ugggggg.
On a separate note. I'm really surprised at how few Manf's offer their wing foil boards in a 6'6" to 6'8" w windsurf insert. If Naish or Quatro did I'd buy in a heart beat. For now I'm wearing out my JP 7' Foil Sup. ;)
Interesting comparison, thanks
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..Shlogger said..
I've asked the same question myself. I've done some pretty extensive testing keeping it at least an Orange to Tangerine. I've gone out w my JP 7' SUP foil board w a Naish 2000 w a 75 cm mast and swapped out back and forth between my 5.3 Ezzy Wave sail and my Fone 5.0 wing. I place the foil all the way forward in the box as I normally ride when winging. Normally for wind foiling I'm 1/3 from the front, but trying to keep things apples to apples.
Upwind: I ran the same course on the sandbars and reached my upwind mark in 4 tacks on the sail and 6-8 tacks on the wing. Wind sail clearly more aerodynamic and if you do both sports like I do, you can feel the wing hit the wall if you pinch to hard.
Downwind: Angling downwind. I'd call it a tie. The windsurfing (WWF Style) does allow me to bank harder as I can leverage against the sail on both tacks. But I'll call it a tie as the wing can go to Zero resistance which lets you go into full on SUP Surf foil mode.
Straight downwind is interesting. Wind-foiling the clue will swing one way or the other and it can offer some resistance. However, as noted in other post, the wing can backwind you as well if you travel faster than wind speed.
Pumping: Wing wins here, whether I'm on my dedicated Wing board or in the side by side testing. You can definitely pump your wind foil board but it's just not as efficient. I've done test w both where I drop the sail to one hand on either port or starboard tack and drop the wing to one hand and the wing wins.
Rigging and Derigging: No Brainer.
Fun: It's a tie for me. If I want to travel from the launch spot to get to some rolling swells or waves the wind foil is the choice. If I'm playing right out front, I like the wing.
Wind Dies: Def easier to shlog back on wind foil in 5-7 mph of wind, especially if there's chop and current. Factor in that my Fone Foil Board is 5'8".....ugggggg.
On a separate note. I'm really surprised at how few Manf's offer their wing foil boards in a 6'6" to 6'8" w windsurf insert. If Naish or Quatro did I'd buy in a heart beat. For now I'm wearing out my JP 7' Foil Sup. ;)
New Goya fits that bill: goyawindsurfing.com/boards/y2021/airbolt-pro/
