Did you ever try the orginal balz 720? It was a small freeride wing and will fit on your phatasm fuse. Its out of print now.
www.sailworks.com/moses-sabfoil-w720-wing.html
Sounds like you need a front wing that is designed for prone surfing big waves. Something that has to go quick but turns well.
I doubt manufacturers are desingning small fast freeride windfoil wings lol. I think some are out of the windfoil market altogether :(
Cheers - no I didn't get to try the SABW720 although I suspect it would be a little thicker than what I want. Seems Balz likes lift to pop.
I agree, manufacturers have given up on freeride windfoiling but luckily plenty of winging options now they're going faster and using smaller foils - be nice if they start using 80cm fuses
Yeah it has a lot of lift, more than the 799
The Ypra-s is likely a lot more skatey and less roll stability compared to what you're using. More glide though.
Making a fuselage to mount Gong wings is not hard with a mill (done it). The Phantasm mast mount also looks fairly simple unless I'm missing a subtle taper. I'm likely to make a fuselage to marry the two in the future for winging. Probably with a KD tail.
Cheers - you've used a lot of kit, which HA <600cm2 wings do you think will be most roll/yaw stable?
Preferably similar to Axis. Phantasm, Simmer, or Patrik wing/mast connection.
I don't have access to a mill to make a fuse - I built one from carbon but it was like a noodle in torsion.
What about the SAB 699? I'm assuming its got too much chord and therefore lift.
One thing with the Phantasm gear is that the SABFoil wings fit straight on the Phantasm fuse - SABFoil do a M8 to M6 adapters for their racing fuses (which are M6). SABFoil are starting to produce some interesting wings, and unlike Slingshot (in Australia) shops actually stock their whole range so you can take a look and demo before you buy. Another option.
Based on just looking at specs and shape:
sabfoil.com/en/products/wing-670-kite-race?_gl=1%2A1s129vq%2A_up%2AMQ..%2A_ga%2ANDY0MzAzMjc4LjE2NzU4ODIwODE.%2A_ga_W4KLQ40KM1%2AMTY3NTg4MjA3OS4xLjEuMTY3NTg4MjE5My4wLjAuMA..
But honestly I think you are looking at wings with too little area.
Based on just looking at specs and shape:
sabfoil.com/en/products/wing-670-kite-race?_gl=1%2A1s129vq%2A_up%2AMQ..%2A_ga%2ANDY0MzAzMjc4LjE2NzU4ODIwODE.%2A_ga_W4KLQ40KM1%2AMTY3NTg4MjA3OS4xLjEuMTY3NTg4MjE5My4wLjAuMA..
But honestly I think you are looking at wings with too little area.
Thanks for the link - perhaps a little too medium aspect but I'll see if I can try one.
I agree the ART699 at 556cm2 is probably too small for everyday riding.
But even with the roll/yaw instability I'm addicted to the crazy low drag/super-smooth glide I've experienced on a few downwinders, so I'll keep it and try and tweak it to behave itself better.
Always open to recommendations for a similar size HA wing with better manners
The ART uses a significantly thicker foil section based on measuring the 899 and 999, I haven't seen a 699 in the flesh but if you can get me the maximum thickness I can run a rough calculation on foil percentage. The other ARTs are upwards of +13% which is VERY thick (Gong is under 9% and SAB ~10%). This means they hit a big drag penalty past their designed speed. It does mean that they can take an aggressive vertical pump, but you aren't doing that with a windfoil anyway.
Also if you actually calculate the AR of both they are not that far off, plus I'm not convinced that AR is the ultimate determiner of glide. Thickness plays a huge role.
For giggles you could track down an original Starboard slalom foil. Black 95cm fuselage, 550 front and 255 rear.
I'm no SAB fanboy but they do offer a very wide array of wings that should bolt right onto your existing hardware. Even ones with continuous anhedral which should lock them in but not breach as calmly.
The ART uses a significantly thicker foil section based on measuring the 899 and 999, I haven't seen a 699 in the flesh but if you can get me the maximum thickness I can run a rough calculation on foil percentage. The other ARTs are upwards of +13% which is VERY thick (Gong is under 9% and SAB ~10%). This means they hit a big drag penalty past their designed speed. It does mean that they can take an aggressive vertical pump, but you aren't doing that with a windfoil anyway.
Also if you actually calculate the AR of both they are not that far off, plus I'm not convinced that AR is the ultimate determiner of glide. Thickness plays a huge role.
For giggles you could track down an original Starboard slalom foil. Black 95cm fuselage, 550 front and 255 rear.
I'm no SAB fanboy but they do offer a very wide array of wings that should bolt right onto your existing hardware. Even ones with continuous anhedral which should lock them in but not breach as calmly.
I measure the ART 699 thickness (reasonably accurately with 2 set squares) at 12mm. I think it's going to be fast enough, insane glide down swells.
. Even ones with continuous anhedral which should lock them in but not breach as calmly.
might telling me what continuous anhedral is?
12mm is thicker than any of the small SAB wings, when compared to the chord that puts the thickness at ~13% which is a lot.
Foil thickness is a big predictor of speed range and how that foil will respond at the upper end.
Continuous anhedral is what foils had 2-3 years ago with the wing having a continuous downward curve.
There are some tasty wings in the new SABFoil line-up. Definitely worth a demo.
Onda 835 amongst the Slingshot PTM's. It's an absolute ripper.
I'm still wondering the point of this whole thread. There are obviously so many HA small wings out there, and have been for years, that will rip downwind (it's not that hard), what is new?
Considering the OP is a Slingshot/Simmer "Team Rider" who has been spamming the forum with promo videos, reviews, and hijacking any other thread to mention the Leyland P76 Slingshot I76 at any opportunity... what is it?
Slingshot are releasing a new wing? Tell us, please!
I'm still wondering the point of this whole thread. There are obviously so many HA small wings out there, and have been for years, that will rip downwind (it's not that hard), what is new?
Considering the OP is a Slingshot/Simmer "Team Rider" who has been spamming the forum with promo videos, reviews, and hijacking any other thread to mention the Leyland P76 Slingshot I76 at any opportunity... what is it?
Slingshot are releasing a new wing? Tell us, please!
My objective (point of the thread) is - 25 knots speed, glide, power carves with optimum control downwind in winds 15-35 knots and 2m swells (and waves). The best glide I've experienced has been on <600cm2 HA wings.
There are a lot of small HA wings out there but I was hoping for input from anybody that's got a proven setup that works for my objective. Be stoked if anyone could post a video, I can't find anything.
Interestingly Jesper is ripping on the Simmer 580cm2 HA wing with the aluminium mast, finds the setup unstable in yaw/roll with the stiffer carbon mast.
Ok cool, I could just see this becoming another promo, where the Simmer comes out on top, setting the benchmark, the pinnacle, the best, ahead of it's time
I only recently realised you are listed on Simmer and Slingshot websites as a "Team Rider", should you declare that in your posts?
Yeah, that may explain why azymuth is promoting the Simmer aluminum mast, excess inventory of aluminum masts because most want a stiffer carbon mast. My carbon AFS W95 foil has zero yaw/roll going downwind with the S670 cm2 mid aspect wing (think 7.2 AR). Second hand info. used to sell more aluminum masts, so if someone complains that the Simmer aluminum mast does have yaw/roll issues can blame Jesper!
Yeah, that may explain why azymuth is promoting the Simmer aluminum mast, excess inventory of aluminum masts because most want a stiffer carbon mast. My carbon AFS W95 foil has zero yaw/roll going downwind with the S670 cm2 mid aspect wing (think 7.2 AR). Second hand info. used to sell more aluminum masts, so if someone complains that the Simmer aluminum mast does have yaw/roll issues can blame Jesper!
Busted - we've got a mountain of alloy masts we're trying to shift, that was actually the purpose of the thread. Damn
Agree with you - yaw/roll is not an issue going downwind at 15 knots in 2 foot chop
I think the end of my small wing experiment.
Tested the AFS foil set with Predator proto in a good 18-25 seabreeze - cheers Daz for the loan
The larger wing (850cm2 ?) was similar in speed and control to my Simmer 920cm2/Phantasm mast combo.
Smaller wing (620cm2 ?) had improved roll/yaw control than other small foils I've tried - but I think the limiting factor for speed is the water state at my age/skill level. Wind over 20 knots the water turbulence seems to add drag so I top out at about 22 knots on all foils, big or small - on relatively narrow freeride boards.
I think I could hit 25 knots on a small wing in around 15-18 knots windspeed, but then the windswells are small so kind of negates the point.
800cm2 foil is probably the sweet spot for me for speed/carving fun in +20 knot winds.
850, 620cm2 front wings and rear wing
Haven't tried downwind-ing but the new F4 400 flies in 10knots with pumping. Minimum flight speed about 10 knots and unlimited top end. Well ok under 40!
proof!
F4 Foil Vs light wind GS010140
To me I think speed is irrelevant especially if you're concentrating on optimizing maneuverability. It takes the fun out of the session thinking about speed. You might as well do GPS sailing. You don't see wave sailors posting speed numbers for their sessions.
To me I think speed is irrelevant especially if you're concentrating on optimizing maneuverability. It takes the fun out of the session thinking about speed. You might as well do GPS sailing. You don't see wave sailors posting speed numbers for their sessions.
Confused muppet - I GPS sailed for 5 years, often doing ocean NMs (JJ Pinnaroos GPSTC), speed is addictive.
Most ocean foil sessions are not strictly wave riding, we're covering a lot of distance up and downwind so it's fun to foil quickly. Also fast carves and gybes feel good
It's easier to carve and turn on big swell/wind days than go fast.
Nice thing about at least some amount of speed is that your gear is far enough from stalling that maneuvers (turns, jumps, tacks, jibes, freestyle [see Balz]) are more reliable and fun. If you are going so slow that your gear stalls or cavitates, you can't do much in the way of maneuvering.
Granted, crashes at higher speeds can be harder on you and gear, but--hey--it's only water. Come back up, wait for the steam to clear, and truck on. I should know; I spend a lot of time IN the water working on jibes. Rhonda used to say, "Speed is your friend." Still true on the foil.
azymuth, have you benchmarked your gear in flat water? Wondering how much of the speedwall is water state vs narrower board and wave sails?
With top level IQFoilers are dragging their bigger wings through some pretty rough water at 25-27 kts got me pondering.
Blasting off the wind in big conditions is its own thrill. Glad to see you pushing the boundaries of things.
azymuth, have you benchmarked your gear in flat water? Wondering how much of the speedwall is water state vs narrower board and wave sails?
With top level IQFoilers are dragging their bigger wings through some pretty rough water at 25-27 kts got me pondering.
Blasting off the wind in big conditions is its own thrill. Glad to see you pushing the boundaries of things.
Agree - should try and find flat water to get a comparison speed, but I'm always chasing swells, even on the river
At a guess I would say narrow board/wave sails and rough water-state (ocean) each deduct a couple of knots of possible speed.
Rough water varies. 40 knots on the river is fun with a 2.8m - but unsailable on the ocean.
A couple of months ago I saw some of our young IQ guns offshore in strong winds - they were going pretty fast, maybe 25 knots.
No doubt age/fitness, skill and self-preservation instinct all play a part.
I think the end of my small wing experiment.
Tested the AFS foil set with Predator proto in a good 18-25 seabreeze - cheers Daz for the loan
The larger wing (850cm2 ?) was similar in speed and control to my Simmer 920cm2/Phantasm mast combo.
Smaller wing (620cm2 ?) had improved roll/yaw control than other small foils I've tried - but I think the limiting factor for speed is the water state at my age/skill level. Wind over 20 knots the water turbulence seems to add drag so I top out at about 22 knots on all foils, big or small - on relatively narrow freeride boards.
I think I could hit 25 knots on a small wing in around 15-18 knots windspeed, but then the windswells are small so kind of negates the point.
800cm2 foil is probably the sweet spot for me for speed/carving fun in +20 knot winds.
850, 620cm2 front wings and rear wing
azymuth what model is that AFS foil?, those wing areas do not match up with current AFS Performer wings, neither do they with my S670 which looks a lot like the 620 except the tips of the 620 are flatter than S670, and they have the same saddle width as my old wings and same round fuselage, but I thought S670 cm2 was part of the last series of wings before new slalom race wings now on foilandco.com website for the Performer foil and wings that all have flatter wing tips, wider saddles, and square fuselage.
Had a chance to try my AFS W95 foil with S670 cm2 front wing on a downwind run in 25-30 knots, fastest I have ever gone, had to be 100% focused to avoid running into the back of 2+ foot waves that came on in a blur!, never felt like I was going to foil out, had perfect control and foil felt solid Now that was with the wing and stab. nearly perfectly aligned at 90 degrees to the mast using tape side shims, and using a foil mast shim set to 0.0 degrees on a Goya Bolt 135, with an Aerotech 4.5 Phantom sail that was somewhat overpowered going upwind, but was using upper clew grommet, next time will try lower clew grommet to reduce twist and power.
JJ,
Sabfoil's new Madusa Pro 669 might be the foil you've been looking for.
SA = 548mm2
Span = 669
AR = 8.14
It also fits your Phantasm fuselage.
My mate has the 769 and its awesome in waves from 15 kts, with potential to 25 kts.
It was stated above: "Yeah it has a lot of lift, more than the 799" talking about the 720. (Presumably both are SABfoil.)
That has not been my observation. My 799 lifts almost as early as my 950, while my 720 requires considerably more board speed to lift and requires me to keep the pedal to the metal to keep it flying. It is a fast wing. The 799 has ~1100 cm2, and the 720 has ~750 cm2.
JJ,
Sabfoil's new Madusa Pro 669 might be the foil you've been looking for.
SA = 548mm2
Span = 669
AR = 8.14
It also fits your Phantasm fuselage.
My mate has the 769 and its awesome in waves from 15 kts, with potential to 25 kts.
Cheers for the info - that 669 looks the goods
But I'm super happy with my Simmer Blackbird Race quiver now - good for the ocean in winds of 12-30 knots.
In cm2 - 920, 720, 550, 255, 280, 310
For reference the 920 is 878 wide 15mm thick.
The 720 and 550 are about 12mm thick.
Mostly use the small tail wing - might put the medium back on if it's super light.
Top out at about 23 knots downwinding swells (turbulent waters) on all 3 front wings, 114L and 90L boards.
Smaller wings are faster but less controllable so max speed evens out (at least for me).
Average speed is greater with smaller wings so lift/front foot pressure is similar with all 3.