Forums > Windsurfing General

SB Community OEM board ?

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Created by Macroscien > 9 months ago, 13 Oct 2012
Mark _australia
WA, 22362 posts
15 Oct 2012 7:30PM
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Macroscien said...
jn1 said...
Macro, I don't like the idea...

Did I write anywhere that I want to design board, build, sell at profit to all SB ???Leave me alone ?
I throw that idea that could be nice our own dream board, organize manufacturing and bring here at $500 a piece for everybody willling.
Community project means that all you people provide constructive idea : what sort of board do you want, what construction, how much you want to pay, etc.
So far I am only the subject to constant attack. ..sorry guys for .. I am not selling you anything .... I could not even sell you my ideas .... I am getting my 3k to buy the best board money could buy at nearest shop ...




I think what he takes issue with is the fact that local custom manufacturers already make a product that is better than factory boards, but you want to get a few local people together and get boards for $500.

That same thinking is why aussie manufacturing is buggered, so I tend to agree a bit

But as I said before I simply don't think you can do it. $500 may be the cost for a board from Cobra IF you order thousands of them.
It may be the cost of a cheap popout surfboard but that is very very different construction to a windsurf board.

winddude
WA, 92 posts
15 Oct 2012 7:36PM
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This is the best thread, it's doing my head in!


FormulaNova
WA, 14648 posts
15 Oct 2012 7:55PM
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longwinded said...
So basically you want to make a "one design".
Think this has been done before.
Read somewhere recently that it may of have killed windsurfing.



I thought that discussion actually ended up saying that the boards had nothing to do with it, and it is the modern day desire for instant gratification that is the problem.

I am sure there was an example of people in the past on older 'one-design' boards persevering, and also of people more recently on modern beginner-friendly boards, finding it too hard. This is the opposite of what you would expect. Certainly the opposite of what I expected, and based on your post above, for you too.

In my opinion, Macroscien's approach could possibly improve the take up of windsurfing by younger people, if a cheap beginners board and rig was available. The more people that could afford it, the more likely it is that someone that likes it gets to try it.

russh
SA, 3025 posts
15 Oct 2012 10:30PM
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Mobydisc said...
Perhaps improved 3D printers will make boards cheaper. The technology is advancing rapidly and perhaps it won't be long before someone makes a plastic fantastique in their garage with a downloaded design and $50 worth of materials.

Some people believe 3D printers will bring about the end of capitalism.




Does that mean you'd be able to 3D print yourself a Jennifer Hawkins??

Mark _australia
WA, 22362 posts
15 Oct 2012 8:54PM
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russh said...
Mobydisc said...
Perhaps improved 3D printers will make boards cheaper. The technology is advancing rapidly and perhaps it won't be long before someone makes a plastic fantastique in their garage with a downloaded design and $50 worth of materials.

Some people believe 3D printers will bring about the end of capitalism.




Does that mean you'd be able to 3D print yourself a Jennifer Hawkins??




GenY will still be lazy and just print the useful bits, then go kiting.

ABCELMO
104 posts
15 Oct 2012 8:56PM
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"But something like LINUX, cheap or free, popular and even more stable that expensive WINDOWS. But both live on the same planet and even do not compete much - just different use."




Kind of like if operating systems were airlines, WINDOWS would crash, No one would no how to fly LINUX (or repair it) and APPLE would be too expensive to fly?

jn1
2454 posts
15 Oct 2012 11:53PM
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Macroscien said...
Select to expand quote
Did I write anywhere that I want to design board, build, sell at profit to all SB ???Leave me alone ?


I have reread your top post. I don't like what you said about copying (plagiarising) somebodies design and then getting a Chinese manufacturer to make it. It stinks. I am sorry if I have offended, but I just can't shine this ****.

Al Planet
TAS, 1546 posts
16 Oct 2012 11:01AM
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If the main aim is to reduce the cost of using the latest gear then I would think that some sort of share scheme would be easier to organise. Given the long hours many of us work, shift work and FIFO it should be possible for a group of people to buy a stack of gear from a single manufacturer/ distributor for a reduced price and then share the gear using some sort of internet booking system.

All that is needed is for a bunch of windsurfers to agree of the brand to be purchased and then agree on the model and then agree on the construction which should be an entertaining process. It would help if the group weren't to geographically seperated but shared an interest in just one of the windsurfing disciplines and if the gear could be stored within walking distance of the beach.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
16 Oct 2012 10:14AM
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jn1 said...
Macroscien said...
Select to expand quote
Did I write anywhere that I want to design board, build, sell at profit to all SB ???Leave me alone ?


I have reread your top post. I don't like what you said about copying (plagiarising) somebodies design and then getting a Chinese manufacturer to make it. It stinks. I am sorry if I have offended, but I just can't shine this ****.


Not at all. Think about that. We could build community board (only one model !)
a) SUP
b) Beginner like Starboard GO
c) Wave Board
d) fancy freestyle board
e)speed board
f) Slalom or free ride board

For me the most desirable is the last one: slalom or freeride

now capacity:
a) 50L - advantage is that need the least materials
b) 80 L - just a sinker for me - so high wind only
c) 110 L - I could do almost everything with size like that - no wind , good wind , strong wind, flat or chop, even waves
d) 150 L -we are entering light wind sailing or very beginner board territory
e) 200L - I think that is just waste of material unless we building SUP or family board to accommodate the whole lot including small dogs on-board

Material used:
( I have seriously no idea how board is build but for example)
-glass over foam
--Carbon fiber - that is my preference as materials are not that expensive in comparison to the rest of production cost
-polypropylene moulded board - like my lovely old big BIC that is indestructable like T35 Russian tank
-Inflatable windsurfer - price may do down up to $20 and you could use as spare bed in family emergency

If we decide to go for slalom board and start shaping and design - what ether we do we come close to very similar shape.
If you paint all top 110 L boards plain WHITE: JP, RRD, Starboard, Carbon Art , Fanatic and few others - to remove any trademarks - I very doubt you will be able to recognize which one is which brand as they all looks very similar now in this optimal shape.

So now if one of our SB members that build boards for top performing racers in his small workshop is willing to share his latest design for our community work - the resultant design will be very similar to all mentioned above.
Which is just perfect for me as I am not looking for any revolution al solution just well performing board design to latest trends.

As I said I am not boat builder , shaper etc. so is not up to me to design the board - I could be mere test rider and helper to carry heavy boxes or sweeping our production warehouse.

Now is up to you to to say one board do you want and come with concept for a such board

As for overwhelming about killing our retail outlets - this is not a case at all - one averaged board model will not do a dent in their profit - vice versa - many new entrants and enthusiast to shop for all other stuff - sails , fins accessories and then board for specific needs.

IMO at this moment the progress for entering windsurfers from beginer to intermediate at lease is halted by using inadequate equipment at best.
Everybody is ridding what is available on second-hand market at the time - all sorts of bards completely inadequate for skills and conditions.
Ie Wave boards on flat waters - to small -and non performing in light winds
clumsy big boards - that will never teach you proper gibing.

IMO if you put advanced beginner straight from Starbord GO on good modern 110L slalom board , without needs to pass over all stash of outdated boards the progress in skill development will be immediate.
Then after while people could migrate to their favourite speciality board - go on waves, for speed or do jumps and trick.

Possibly that is not a case here in Aussie but in Germany that driving licence is treated much more seriously driving lesson is provided on quite descent cars in carefully controlled manner and normal life condition.
What the result is we all know - nobody is capable of driving 200 km/h legally here.





aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
16 Oct 2012 10:26AM
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jn1 said...
You gave the example of Microsoft versus Linux. Your idea is more like Microsoft in my opinion. Many software/electronics professions cut their teeth in the early days by making their projects free to use. In the early days at least (not sure now ?), it was all about the learning and sharing knowledge. It was never about the end result. Good on you for being honest anyway.



Out of interest, have a look into the HomeBrew Computer club, operated out of Stanford University in the 70's, and in particular a very early letter from Bill Gates to the members of the club denouncing their sharing of information and technology. An interesting look back at the history of home computing, and insight into the thoughts of a then 16 year old Bill Gates.

Alas, this doesn't sound anything like that. I keep reading plagiarism rather than development, I read cost reduction rather than improvement. The design ethos and drivers behind the idea are all wrong, and this is primarily what is getting peoples noses out of joint. Add to that the negative impact these things could have on the small and fragile local industry, and I really don't see that it would ever be worth pursuing.

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
16 Oct 2012 11:27AM
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russh said...
Mobydisc said...
Perhaps improved 3D printers will make boards cheaper. The technology is advancing rapidly and perhaps it won't be long before someone makes a plastic fantastique in their garage with a downloaded design and $50 worth of materials.

Some people believe 3D printers will bring about the end of capitalism.




Does that mean you'd be able to 3D print yourself a Jennifer Hawkins??




As technology improves this will probably happen. People will probably print a duplicate of themselves to go to work too. This will lead to problems down the line.



Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
16 Oct 2012 10:41AM
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Mobydisc said...
russh said...
Mobydisc said...
Perhaps improved 3D printers will make boards cheaper. The technology is advancing rapidly and perhaps it won't be long before someone makes a plastic fantastique in their garage with a downloaded design and $50 worth of materials.

Some people believe 3D printers will bring about the end of capitalism.




Does that mean you'd be able to 3D print yourself a Jennifer Hawkins??




As technology improves this will probably happen. People will probably print a duplicate of themselves to go to work too. This will lead to problems down the line.





This is not exactly a case People go to work for money, but 2D printer was invented long ago.
That bring me a reflexion that people go to work not only for money for social interaction and to kill boredom

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
16 Oct 2012 10:45AM
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aus301 said...
rather than improvement.

Oh how nice... now you want me to call to come with bunch random SB individuals and built for start board a few classes better for a couple bucks that processional JP and Starboard do for living with multimillion budged and decades of experience.
That must be really insult to their work.
If you still dreaming - it is time to wake up

choco
SA, 4032 posts
16 Oct 2012 11:22AM
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Macroscien said...
jn1 said...
Macro, I don't like the idea...

Did I write anywhere that I want to design board, build, sell at profit to all SB ???Leave me alone ?
I throw that idea that could be nice to have our own dream board, organize manufacturing and bring here at $500 a piece for everybody willing.
Community project means that all you people provide constructive idea : what sort of board do you want, what construction, how much you want to pay, etc.
So far I am only the subject to constant attack. ..sorry guys for .. I am not selling you anything .... I could not even sell you my ideas .... I am getting my 3k to buy the best board money could buy at nearest shop ...




Some on here are quite nasty creatures maybe they got vested interests? , instead of designing a board just approach every manufacturer and see what the best deal they can do on one single board eg 100 litre free ride say if you order 500 units you may actually get them for under 1k but who knows unless you try.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
16 Oct 2012 11:19AM
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choco said...
Macroscien said...
jn1 said...
Macro, I don't like the idea...

Did I write anywhere that I want to design board, build, sell at profit to all SB ???Leave me alone ?
I throw that idea that could be nice to have our own dream board, organize manufacturing and bring here at $500 a piece for everybody willing.
Community project means that all you people provide constructive idea : what sort of board do you want, what construction, how much you want to pay, etc.
So far I am only the subject to constant attack. ..sorry guys for .. I am not selling you anything .... I could not even sell you my ideas .... I am getting my 3k to buy the best board money could buy at nearest shop ...




Some on here are quite nasty creatures maybe they got vested interests? , instead of designing a board just approach every manufacturer and see what the best deal they can do on one single board eg 100 litre free ride say if you order 500 units you may actually get them for under 1k but who knows unless you try.

Idea of community order and supply works well on alternative energy market.
I saw a few quite successful cases where community get orders for solar panels and brought from overseas few containers from leading top manufacturer, products at bottom prices. At $1 a watt of less from memory...

That could be the way maybe to go but instead of 1000 boards you need to place an order for 10 or 20 because that is max consensus SB community could reach.


dan berry
WA, 2562 posts
16 Oct 2012 1:15PM
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Pretty sure if your not overly concerned with cutting edge performance you could march your ass down to your local shop (supporting the industry) and buy a 2yr old secondhand board ( keeping the money local) for under $1000. You would get a better board than an Chinese pop out, guaranteed.
This is like talking to a brick this thread

aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
16 Oct 2012 4:04PM
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Macroscien said...
aus301 said...
rather than improvement.

Oh how nice... now you want me to call to come with bunch random SB individuals and built for start board a few classes better for a couple bucks that processional JP and Starboard do for living with multimillion budged and decades of experience.
That must be really insult to their work.
If you still dreaming - it is time to wake up



Maybe you should re read my post. It was totally in relation to the idea that some had put forward that this was like Linux v Moneysoft... or the idea of open source computing, which it is not. Neither Linux or open source have a key driver of cost reduction, both the OS and the idea of open source are driven by an ideal of improving what we currently have. As was also the case with the early days of home computing, hence my words around the Home Brew computer club.

Way to take one line of a post and play it out of context... well done.

BTW, Dan is spot on the money. I just sold a board that was in excellent condition, 3 years old and still performing like a top line shape for $750. Sounds like a better investment in my books.

stehsegler
WA, 3469 posts
16 Oct 2012 2:48PM
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dan berry said...
Pretty sure if your not overly concerned with cutting edge performance you could march your ass down to your local shop (supporting the industry) and buy a 2yr old secondhand board ( keeping the money local) for under $1000. You would get a better board than an Chinese pop out, guaranteed.
This is like talking to a brick this thread


I think Windsurf and Snow have a 76 JP Twin + Neil Pryde 4.7 Rig in the shop for $1500. So yeah, I totally agree with you that there are plenty of under $1000 boards kicking about.

stehsegler
WA, 3469 posts
16 Oct 2012 2:54PM
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aus301 said...
Maybe you should re read my post. It was totally in relation to the idea that some had put forward that this was like Linux v Moneysoft...


Let's face it the only people that say running Linux rather than Microsoft in a corporate environment probably have never worked in it. While the the initial license to deploy Linux is free the cost of retraining users, supporting the platform and getting the same level of application support will quickly eat up any benefits.

Also, while I am not a Windows fan the builds commonly found in corporate environments rarely crash and will almost never see a virus infection.

</ end geek conversion>

FormulaNova
WA, 14648 posts
16 Oct 2012 3:52PM
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aus301 said...


Maybe you should re read my post. It was totally in relation to the idea that some had put forward that this was like Linux v Moneysoft... or the idea of open source computing, which it is not. Neither Linux or open source have a key driver of cost reduction, both the OS and the idea of open source are driven by an ideal of improving what we currently have. As was also the case with the early days of home computing, hence my words around the Home Brew computer club.



Actually, I think Minix and then the resulting Linux were initially written because AT&T changed from providing the source code (for UNIX) for free, to asking for a license cost. So, I think you could argue that Linux was all about cost reduction. If there was a license cost for the base Linux OS, then Linux would not have gotten popular at all.

In one case of the home brew computer club, Apple started from being able to provide something better than the existing vendors, cheaper. In order to do this, they had to use the MOS 6502 CPU, which itself was an attempt at replicating what Motorola did, but at a cheaper price.




aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
16 Oct 2012 7:53PM
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FormulaNova said...
aus301 said...


Maybe you should re read my post. It was totally in relation to the idea that some had put forward that this was like Linux v Moneysoft... or the idea of open source computing, which it is not. Neither Linux or open source have a key driver of cost reduction, both the OS and the idea of open source are driven by an ideal of improving what we currently have. As was also the case with the early days of home computing, hence my words around the Home Brew computer club.



Actually, I think Minix and then the resulting Linux were initially written because AT&T changed from providing the source code (for UNIX) for free, to asking for a license cost. So, I think you could argue that Linux was all about cost reduction. If there was a license cost for the base Linux OS, then Linux would not have gotten popular at all.

In one case of the home brew computer club, Apple started from being able to provide something better than the existing vendors, cheaper. In order to do this, they had to use the MOS 6502 CPU, which itself was an attempt at replicating what Motorola did, but at a cheaper price.







Getting so off topic, but anyways...

I am of the opinion that GNU was written with the driver of being free, and possibly the same could be said for MINUX, but to a lesser extent as the first version I believe was written mainly to prove the principals of a book written on OS design. Linux however was really written as a hobby, and the initial build set out to remedy things that users of MINUX liked/didn't like.

Mark _australia
WA, 22362 posts
16 Oct 2012 5:57PM
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Macroscien said...
Material used:
( I have seriously no idea how board is build but for example)
-glass over foam



and I think that is wildy apparent, as you still think you can get a board for $500.

You CAN get a board that is very weak, or very heavy, for those $$$. ie: a crap board. Maybe for $500.
You will NOT get a modern styro core / PVC foam sandwich board.
Starboard may get them for $500 from Cobra and we end up paying $2000, but 50 people from seabreeze (more realistically 10 ppl from SB) is simply not enough of a size to get the unit cost down to $500.


I think we should now continue with the operating system circle jerk, it is fun watching geeks get frothing about the zeros and ones floating around in a pornbox.
Kinda like if chippies argued over brands of hammer even though the end result is the same. Freaks
(meant in the nicest possible way)

aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
16 Oct 2012 8:01PM
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Mark _australia said...

I think we should now continue with the operating system circle jerk,




Nup, I'm over it... just gave myself a punch in the head for letting my work world invade my play time.

FormulaNova
WA, 14648 posts
16 Oct 2012 6:31PM
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aus301 said...
FormulaNova said...
aus301 said...


Maybe you should re read my post. It was totally in relation to the idea that some had put forward that this was like Linux v Moneysoft... or the idea of open source computing, which it is not. Neither Linux or open source have a key driver of cost reduction, both the OS and the idea of open source are driven by an ideal of improving what we currently have. As was also the case with the early days of home computing, hence my words around the Home Brew computer club.



Actually, I think Minix and then the resulting Linux were initially written because AT&T changed from providing the source code (for UNIX) for free, to asking for a license cost. So, I think you could argue that Linux was all about cost reduction. If there was a license cost for the base Linux OS, then Linux would not have gotten popular at all.

In one case of the home brew computer club, Apple started from being able to provide something better than the existing vendors, cheaper. In order to do this, they had to use the MOS 6502 CPU, which itself was an attempt at replicating what Motorola did, but at a cheaper price.







Getting so off topic, but anyways...

I am of the opinion that GNU was written with the driver of being free, and possibly the same could be said for MINUX, but to a lesser extent as the first version I believe was written mainly to prove the principals of a book written on OS design. Linux however was really written as a hobby, and the initial build set out to remedy things that users of MINUX liked/didn't like.



Nah, Andrew Tanenbaum wrote Minix because of AT&T asking for a license fee for UNIX. His courses used UNIX before this happened. He decided we would make it a microkernel along the way to make it a purer architecture.

As an aside, Minix wasn't really free until recently.

Linus Torvalds then decided he wanted something faster, and went his own way.

FormulaNova
WA, 14648 posts
16 Oct 2012 6:36PM
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Mark _australia said...
Macroscien said...
Material used:
( I have seriously no idea how board is build but for example)
-glass over foam



and I think that is wildy apparent, as you still think you can get a board for $500.

You CAN get a board that is very weak, or very heavy, for those $$$. ie: a crap board. Maybe for $500.
You will NOT get a modern styro core / PVC foam sandwich board.
Starboard may get them for $500 from Cobra and we end up paying $2000, but 50 people from seabreeze (more realistically 10 ppl from SB) is simply not enough of a size to get the unit cost down to $500.


I think we should now continue with the operating system circle jerk, it is fun watching geeks get frothing about the zeros and ones floating around in a pornbox.
Kinda like if chippies argued over brands of hammer even though the end result is the same. Freaks
(meant in the nicest possible way)




I don't know if a board from Cobra really would cost as much as $500. I suspect that their labour is extremely cheap, and the material cost wouldn't be much. Carbon costs wouldn't come into it, at least not based on the boards that I have hacked apart.



Thanks for your permission on the OS stuff. If you get out of your depth, just pretend it says stuff about guns or something?

Mark _australia
WA, 22362 posts
16 Oct 2012 6:50PM
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FormulaNova said...
Thanks for your permission on the OS stuff. If you get out of your depth, just pretend it says stuff about guns or something?


Lol. I deserve that.

jn1
2454 posts
16 Oct 2012 6:58PM
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Aus301: Some good points about home brew and GPL, but that is getting off topic, so no comment.

Macro: That is a much better approach. I don't know anything about board making, so no help, but if you can find somebody interested in shaping and who would be willing to give their designs to a community project, it could turn into something bigger. There's enough experience on this site to feed into that. Get a design, iterate/refine it with theory and mockups. Then if that goes well, make a full size prototype and test it.

You sound like a project leader. Designers are good at designing, but not good at progressing the design to mass production. It takes the leader to push it to that stage. However, I think you are getting ahead of yourself. It's all good to talk about production, but you need to find a shaper, turn out a design prototype, with some evidence of testing and rationale of your design (not just something that looks good). If you reach that stage and you have that documented proof, I am willing to buy a board.

but please don't steel other designers ideas. That would be a ****y thing to do. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Aus301: Regarding small and fragile local industry, when shapers like Peter Ross and Werner Gnigler eventually retire, who is going to replace them ?. I support anybody who wants to learn how to make boards. A community project would be a fantastic vehicle for that. Two (or more) heads with a passion to design is better than one.

aus301
QLD, 2039 posts
16 Oct 2012 9:17PM
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jn1 said...

Aus301: Regarding small and fragile local industry, when shapers like Peter Ross and Werner Gnigler eventually retire, who is going to replace them ?. I support anybody who wants to learn how to make boards. A community project would be a fantastic vehicle for that. Two (or more) heads with a passion to design is better than one.



Locally guys like Mark Stone, James Hooper are out there pushing out great designs right now. As for the future... who knows. Barn is making a few boards, who knows where that might end up. I am sure there are others. And on a world wide scale... maybe Kauli or Levi are spending some time shaping up to be the next Keith Teboul etc.

But consider also the whole industry. I know a few guys that I consider as friends that have poured their heart and soul into running businesses based around windsurfing. They still have to pay mortgages, feed families etc and most I know aren't rich (if they are, it probably didn't come from windsurfing). Now take 50 or so of their customers away from them. given the size of the windsurfing spend in this country annually that could be enough to send a few of these people to the wall. Not saying it will, but it could.

Some guys learning design could be a good thing, you are right there. But I still maintain that the original driver was based around reduced cost. Even more recent posts talk about having a person who already has a clue donating a design to be built. I'm not sure that will result in anyone learning a thing.

winddude
WA, 92 posts
16 Oct 2012 7:19PM
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I hate to destroy everyone's dreams but you could not get a board out of Cobra for anything like the dollars people are talking about here. With mould costs from $30 - 100 k you guys are dreaming. Chinese manufacture would be possible but I'd rather have a 8 year old Jp or Starboard any day than those POS.
It is also in Cobras interests to protect its big customers ( Pryde, Starboard Naish etc) so they would NEVER do it!
While your at it Macro why don't we do a SB car, we could cut out all the middlemen and get a Chinese one for half price. I honestly think some people on here are mentally challenged.

FormulaNova
WA, 14648 posts
16 Oct 2012 7:29PM
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winddude said...
I hate to destroy everyone's dreams but you could not get a board out of Cobra for anything like the dollars people are talking about here. With mould costs from $30 - 100 k you guys are dreaming. Chinese manufacture would be possible but I'd rather have a 8 year old Jp or Starboard any day than those POS.
It is also in Cobras interests to protect its big customers ( Pryde, Starboard Naish etc) so they would NEVER do it!
While your at it Macro why don't we do a SB car, we could cut out all the middlemen and get a Chinese one for half price. I honestly think some people on here are mentally challenged.


Whoa buddy. You seem to being bent all out of shape over a mere suggestion. Relax, its only a discussion, and doesn't need to be exact or perfect.

I forgot about the mold costs though. I agree this would probably add significantly to the cost.



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"SB Community OEM board ?" started by Macroscien