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SB Community OEM board ?

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Created by Macroscien > 9 months ago, 13 Oct 2012
Carantoc
WA, 6593 posts
22 Oct 2012 3:56PM
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Why not use di-lithium crystals as a core ?

I am sure the speed sailers would be happy, until they got to warp 10 and Scotty couldn't hold it together.

In fact why not put a Klingon cloaking device on sails and make them invisible to kiters ?

(bollocks - page 6 and it is my fault)

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
22 Oct 2012 6:15PM
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If we only live in Florida and ask the same question on their SB I am sure some NASA windsurfing enthusiasts could perform following simulation in their lunch time break on their supercomputers.
If we take two surfaces 1 cm apart with almost unlimited tensional strenght ( almost or those of carbon nano tube 63,000-130,000 MPa ) connect this two surfaces by bridges at 90 and 45 degree and pressurise gas between to 100 ; 1000 : 10,000 etc - ( i know it became liquid )
what will be max. load on such structure and how if compare to the same made of reinforced concrete or steel.....
Then simulation could take into account required wall thickness required to withstand internal pressure of gases.

dan berry
WA, 2562 posts
22 Oct 2012 5:56PM
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No seriously....... Stop.

FormulaNova
WA, 14560 posts
22 Oct 2012 6:05PM
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dan berry said...
No seriously....... Stop.



Nah, everyone needs a hobby

Waterloo
QLD, 1496 posts
22 Oct 2012 8:24PM
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"Guess who's got a new shovel?..."



"Howard Molson's got a new shovel. It's a lovely shovel, ..."

FormulaNova
WA, 14560 posts
22 Oct 2012 6:24PM
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Macroscien said...

Could be made much easier, faster and extremely cheaper.
Like Pepsicola plastic bottle. One mould , blow up to the shape, fill with super strong but cheap foam, pump some pressure and board done. This technology could provide board at $50 max and you still not be able to brake it. Read the space in 5 years and we will see who was right.
<snip>


and


Read the space in 10 years from now and pick-up the winner in this discussion.
I bet my $1 that you will be able to make your own 3D design board on the web, order and have your own board 3D printed and mailed to you like T-shirt today.


5 years? 10 years? Why do some people argue like this? In 5 years, no one will remember this topic, and definitely no one will care.

In 5 or 10 years, I wouldn't be surprised if boards were built exactly the same as they are now. I have a Mistral board that was made of 'Custom' construction in 1999. It is regular EPS/Divinycell construction that we still have today. So that's 13 years at least for a method of construction that hasn't really changed.

So, 15 years then?



Chris 249
NSW, 3309 posts
22 Oct 2012 9:33PM
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As others have pointed out, Macro, if you use a handwavium skin over unobtainium core you COULD get a better board at a cost of just 2.5 smarkakles per drowzium.

In real life, in 2012, that is meainingless gibberish. It takes no brains whatsoever to point out that IF we had new materials developed to a practical and economic stage, then we could use them to make boards. That is so completely self-evident that no one who is not up caught up in their own smugness would bother to say it.

In real life, there are problems. Here's one - what happens in 10 years time when a board pressurized to X KpA develops a minute crack and then explodes, sending shrapnel into the poor sods standing around on the beach?

I have a carbon/kevlar/light foam board from 1982 which is extremely stiff and very tough. It was, and would be, also vastly more expensive than you are talking about.

Board designers are often familiar with what happens in sailboat design, and sailboat designers are quite happy to spend several million bucks per boat on high tech construction. When the space shuttle was launched by NASA, the carbon load bay doors were the 15th-25th (IIRC) largest high-tech pre-preg carbon structures in the world. Number 1-14 were racing yachts. These guys don't just use pro and F1 engineers and aeronautical record holding professors to design boats, they also throw buckets of cash and brains at the problem.

These people are not morons and they have a lot of cash and they use F1 and aerospace technology, but this stuff requires more vastly more cash than you are talking about.

My other sport is cycle racing and they have found nothing higher in technology than sailing boats. IIRC top line bike builders like Cervelo are now building top line bikes in technology that MacConaghy Boats was using in 2001.

You, of course, simply worship yourself and assume that you are smarter than all of the boatbuilders, boardbuilders and cycle builders, but that is your own problem.

BTW the man who basically invented the sport and worked with Starboard for years WAS a former NACA geek. by the way. Do you think that he may have had some idea about tech?

Chris 249
NSW, 3309 posts
22 Oct 2012 10:26PM
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Macroscien said...

Before such prosaic critics are posted better to know some facts:

Tensile strength of material:

Epoxy adhesive 12-30MPa

Polyester Resin -50MPa

Polycarbonate (your ordinary pepsi bottle !) 75 Mpa

So polycarbonate or your plastic bottle material is actually much stronger then epoxy or polyester resin.

What give the board the real strength is embedded glass or carbon nano tube fibre.
Glass fibre -1500 MPa
Carbon fibre -1600 MPa
so resultant composite may reach tensile strength up to 1200 MPa

You claim that polycarbonate could not be used for board production is simply untrue. For nowadays practical reason is much easier to apply resin that form composite material based on other "plastics" .

Technology of other "plastics" is not yet on "home garage DIY" level.

By comparison you will not be able to create simple " stupid" Pepsi bottle in your garage but you still could do the best windsurfing board if you are lucky.



Don't assume that others have no idea about composites; some of us were using carbon in boards and boats long before you got into the sport. Nor did I say that polycarbonates could not be used in windsurfing.

Your claim for epoxy's tensile strength is out by a factor of about 400% according to WEST figures, but AFAIK that is not relevant since fibres take the load as you noted. INteresting that earlier you did not mention fibres. I don't know if you have ever actually been in a board factory or laid up any fibres but if you had, you would know that the labour, impregnation problems etc have suddenly dramatically increased your cost vastly above the figures you were talking about earlier.

I'd like to see you play with high-pressure custom-made or prepreg carbon and Nomex in a home garage, but some boatbuilders have been using that stuff for many years. You could talk to Alex Vallings from C Tech in NZ or people like that about how to home-made high tech, but that would involve actually learning rather than throwing contempt around as you do. Yes, it can be done 'better' than it is in production boards, but you cannot do it better for a fraction of the price.




sausage
QLD, 4873 posts
22 Oct 2012 10:28PM
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[b]FormulaNova said...
In 5 years, no one will remember this topic, and definitely no one will care.


In 5 or 10 years this thread will have its own website ;-)

PS - just popping out to get some more popcorn

JonesySail
QLD, 1082 posts
22 Oct 2012 11:06PM
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I wreckon these super sonic new boards will be filled with a lot of 'hot air'.....!!!

and before any starts...yep there has been a board that was 'air filled' from Europe few years ago...was pretty good 'when' it worked...

hargs
QLD, 634 posts
22 Oct 2012 11:09PM
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Macroscie or whatever the f=ck you call yourself you are a f*cking idiot. In all my years of wind/water sports I have never come across such a complete d+ck head. Get a grip (if you have one to grab) and go back to your nerd camp and design your one design $5 board you f8cking tool.

Mark _australia
WA, 22301 posts
22 Oct 2012 9:45PM
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Spiderwebs are the strongest fibres for their weight.... or sectional density to length ratio or something. Whatever.

I am gettign aheap of spiders and puttign them nside a hollowed out board.
I just pumped LSD fumes threw the board, and played techno music (hard tyrance seems to be best) and they are going like crazy little fibre weavers lol and the board is now fille dwith spider webs. Sik!

I took the hull off and I have a lattice like that nasa really lite nanotube ones on top of the daffoldil, and it is the shape of the board, exactly. now I have elctrostatically charegd it with a car battery so the epoxy resin I have sprayed itnot the air will stick to it.
So far it has cost me 1 x tachno CD, 2 x trips and a bottle of West 105 resin which is $110 all up.

It is really stiff.

Then I will laminate it with G11 (G10 is sooo old skool)

I cna do boards for $300 easy for SB memebers.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
22 Oct 2012 11:56PM
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Since nobody is reading or trying to understand anything I could keep writing for myself end future generations.
Design the concept board construction your grand kids will be using.
You asked Mark what construction, then after while I come up with technological process.
Steps to create 3D board.
1. First we prepare cuboid slightly bigger of boar made of foam weaved with carbon fibres going vertically (90 degree) and 45 degree's in all directions
Foam is used to stabilize delicate carbon matrix
2. Robotic laser will cut from this cuboid precisely desired board shape
3.Next process remove marginal foam to release few millimetres of fibre at surface
4.Applying external skin made of composite carbon fibre and desired bond (epoxy or polycarbonate etc)
5.External skin of board consist then of the reinforcing carbon canvas and anchored fibres penetrating foam foam across.
Now depending on desired mechanical properties internal foam could be removed (dissolved for example) and replaced with other material or gas or liquid.
Could be also left if have sufficient mechanical properties ( for compression)

Such rough prototype could be made even today by weaving traditional board filler with carbon or kevlar thread to be bonded later with external layer -board skin.

OK I think that will be enough... now I could move to Stephen Hawkins to improve on his quantum theory....

Mark _australia
WA, 22301 posts
22 Oct 2012 10:14PM
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Macroscien said...
Since nobody is reading or trying to understand anything


Agreed. But it includes you!
You wanted a $500 board the same as current construction and a number of people said NO, not possible.

So now you are talking star trek stuff even though apparently boards cost too much.

Please advise - do you want a $500 board or a $10,000 board?

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
23 Oct 2012 12:36AM
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Mark _australia said...
Macroscien said...
Since nobody is reading or trying to understand anything


Agreed. But it includes you!
You wanted a $500 board the same as current construction and a number of people said NO, not possible.

So now you are talking star trek stuff even though apparently boards cost too much.

Please advise - do you want a $500 board or a $10,000 board?



As you see nobody want $500 board even if possible. Will not be futuristic but not worse then others.
For most SB readers board is just sacred religion not to be touched.
For me this is just PLAIN THING that always could be improved on but for most of us don't even need to be as boards are already good enough - the rest is the whole ART of riding it - means skills and technique - that could not be bought for any money.
My point was that something that cost $3000 could be made easy ( looking on material and labour at $300-500) as for today.
People keep writing nonsense how cheap the board will disintegrate in no time - but in real life unless you are crazy trickster how you could possibly damage board.
In all my life I saw the only one board ( JP) that broke in half on the waves in Melbourne in quite harsh condition.
90% of the windsurfers here will not be able to damage board made of carton paper and styrofoam.
Unless they do CATAPULTS, BANGING AGAINST ROCKS, DRAGGING THE FIN ON THE BOTTOM which is inexcusable and will damage any board regardless how well made.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
23 Oct 2012 12:51AM
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Mark _australia said...

So now you are talking star trek stuff even though apparently boards cost too much.


I hope no.
I hope that at least one quiet reader that do his own boards in his garage
will take the needle and will tread foam across before laminating.
Another will do the empty shell with thread bridges and with fill it with expandable polyurethane foam.
But obviously 99% of the readers will do nothing but write next vulgarity.
For me it is worth to write even for this 1% if it helps

FormulaNova
WA, 14560 posts
23 Oct 2012 5:52AM
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Macroscien said...
Mark _australia said...

So now you are talking star trek stuff even though apparently boards cost too much.


I hope no.
I hope that at least one quiet reader that do his own boards in his garage
will take the needle and will tread foam across before laminating.
Another will do the empty shell with thread bridges and with fill it with expandable polyurethane foam.
But obviously 99% of the readers will do nothing but write next vulgarity.
For me it is worth to write even for this 1% if it helps




So, you expect that someone clever enough to build their own boards at home, and understand the materials they are working with, will take your mere untested suggestions and try and implement them?

I think your idea will fall down when they realise what you are suggesting is not practical. Have you even used expanding foam?

I think 1% sounds very optimistic.

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
23 Oct 2012 10:01AM
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Congrats Macro...6 pages of complete drivel (from all sides) & still going strong.

SB thread of the year award goes to...

deejay8204
QLD, 557 posts
23 Oct 2012 9:04AM
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Macroscien said...

OK I think that will be enough... now I could move to Stephen Hawkins to improve on his quantum theory....


Yes please stop, CAN THE MODERATORS Please stop this thread, the fumes of this futuristic board are giving me a headache.

Macroscience, go buy CAD3D and just design the board, if someone likes the design, they may look at building a prototype.But the process involved in reaching a final prototype can be the the 10's of thousands $$$ you will never get the design right on the first board or probably not the second one either, you might be lucky on the 3rd but i doubt it. I'm not saying that your ideas are bad.... But I would recommend going and talking to a custom shaper and see what is involved in the final product even for a cheap board.

Copying other designs can be really dangerous as the people that build and design them tend to not like copy cats much at all and will make your life hell before you even lay out the first bit of material for a board.

As I said above go buy CAD and have a try at designing your own board, you can scan in some pictures and reshape the board to suit your own ideas, but don't copy them exactly. Please just stop with this thread.

FormulaNova
WA, 14560 posts
23 Oct 2012 7:22AM
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Ahh, the irony is great... people asking the thread to be stopped 'by posting to the same thread'

Don't you guys know that the best way to kill a thread is to stop reading it, and most importantly stop replying to it? [}:)] Why would a moderator stop something when you don't have enough self-control to stop yourself from reading it?

Mark _australia
WA, 22301 posts
23 Oct 2012 8:20AM
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^^^


7

pages

c'mon

Mark _australia
WA, 22301 posts
23 Oct 2012 8:20AM
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damn, not quite

cammd
QLD, 3716 posts
23 Oct 2012 10:29AM
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I for one have been enjoying this thread

Cant decide if I want an unobtanium core or a spider web one and I,m still trying to find out the exchange rate between AUD and drowziums

longwinded
WA, 344 posts
23 Oct 2012 8:48AM
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Now just waiting to be told that we are all part of an elaborate social experiment.

FormulaNova
WA, 14560 posts
23 Oct 2012 8:52AM
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longwinded said...
Now just waiting to be told that we are all part of an elaborate social experiment.


I think someone has been hypnotised into believing that they can create the ultimate windsurfing board for pennies, and that the rest of the world needs to know.

barn
WA, 2960 posts
23 Oct 2012 8:58AM
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Has anyone thought of Papier-mâché/cardboard construction? This is the obvious solution, 100% carbon boards, cheap... Plus you would never get any water inside cause there is a balloon in there!!!

dan berry
WA, 2562 posts
23 Oct 2012 9:19AM
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Genius!!!! Um but how would you get the rods inside the balloon ??

sausage
QLD, 4873 posts
23 Oct 2012 11:45AM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned using the Higgs Boson in the construction. Better still some dark matter would be excellent.

This thread is like a train wreck, car crash and mid air collision all wrapped into one - you just can't help but look

EDIT - Damn, still on page 6

Waterloo
QLD, 1496 posts
23 Oct 2012 11:58AM
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"...I refuse to play your Chinese Food mind games..."




"there's no and then..."

jermaldan
VIC, 1572 posts
23 Oct 2012 1:11PM
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The answer to all your questions can be found in coconut fibre, banana skins and quinoa!



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"SB Community OEM board ?" started by Macroscien