Forums > Windsurfing General

When are they going to invent an adjustable sail

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Created by sboardcrazy > 9 months ago, 10 May 2009
sboardcrazy
NSW, 8014 posts
10 May 2009 6:42PM
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Am I the only one that has dreamed of a sail that can be reefed / adjusted in size to suit the wind so you only need one sail? Don't know if it would be feasable performance wise & the manufacturers would hate it as it would cut sales but.. How about a vertical system where the sail can be adjustably 'scrunched'/gathered ( not that rugged but i cant think of a better word) at boom level to reduce the size? .. I wonder if it would be feasable?

WindmanV
VIC, 741 posts
10 May 2009 6:57PM
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Hi, SBC,

It's already been done.

Back in the early nineties in the USA, there was a crew called Multi Sail who marketed a sail with a zipped-on section below the boom.

In low wind, you used the full area of the sail, then as the wind rose, you zipped the foot of the sail off.

Can't recall that it was ever tested by the US magazine "Windsurfing", so I don't know how well it worked, but the company is no longer around so perhaps it didn't work that well.

Regards,

WindmanV

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8014 posts
10 May 2009 7:16PM
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Bugger..I thought I was on to something..It mustn't have performed because you'd think people would be lining up to buy it!

stehsegler
WA, 3466 posts
10 May 2009 5:44PM
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I am pretty sure Lefebvre also did an adjustable sail back in the day... have a look at www.lefebvre-sails.de/ for more futuristic designs.

sboardcrazy,

I think the thing is sail makers rather sell two sails at $900 each than sell you an adjustable sail at $1000.

Mark _australia
WA, 22348 posts
10 May 2009 6:15PM
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No matter how you do it, the sail would suffer performance-wise

Plus, its the same as all other extreme sports - everyone wants to go faster and higher etc and 'compromise' gear never sells well.

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
10 May 2009 9:04PM
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Mark _australia said...

No matter how you do it, the sail would suffer performance-wise

Plus, its the same as all other extreme sports - everyone wants to go faster and higher etc and 'compromise' gear never sells well.




However if you were Allison Shreeve crossing Bass Strait with a 10m sail and you ran into 25 knot winds you'd probably give your first born for a sail with some zip open vents.
I suppose she could have pulled out her handy swiss army knife and made some judicious excisions...

Sailhack
VIC, 5000 posts
10 May 2009 9:09PM
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Just carry a pocket knife & some duct tape...too strong = punch a few holes in it...to little = tape it back up!

NotWal
QLD, 7428 posts
10 May 2009 9:25PM
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Sailhack said...

Just carry a pocket knife & some duct tape...too strong = punch a few holes in it...to little = tape it back up!


Is THAT why they call you that?

pirrad
SA, 850 posts
11 May 2009 12:14AM
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a project i did a while back to make a small sail bigger for a land yacht.zip on section ,battens slotted into gaastra gtx batten adjusters,mast tip ext.wouldnt work [i dont think for a performance sail]could have merrits though for beginner-kids sails sub planing conditions.

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
11 May 2009 1:16AM
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Yeah, it wouldn't work - unless manufacturers really put their considerable talent, imagination and ability into something that would instantly reduce sales by at least 50%.

I've dreamed of this myself many times, but considering the forces at work on a sail while planing, and the fact that making small adjustments to equipment can make such a huge difference to performance, how are they gonna make, say, a 7m which converts to a 5m and still works just as well? On the same mast, even?

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8014 posts
11 May 2009 7:26AM
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yeah .I thought it wouldn't work performance wise but we can dream! All the wasted time & energy spent thinking about ( while under/ over powered) changing sails & then finally doing it..could be time spent on the water!

mathew
QLD, 2044 posts
11 May 2009 10:08AM
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There is one solution that may help (or not...) -> rig up both sails, then use whichever sail is the correct size, and save the de-rig for packup time. Just make sure to tether you spare sail to something that wont blow away.

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
11 May 2009 10:17AM
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WindmanV said...

Hi, SBC,

It's already been done.

Back in the early nineties in the USA, there was a crew called Multi Sail who marketed a sail with a zipped-on section below the boom.

In low wind, you used the full area of the sail, then as the wind rose, you zipped the foot of the sail off.

Can't recall that it was ever tested by the US magazine "Windsurfing", so I don't know how well it worked, but the company is no longer around so perhaps it didn't work that well.

Regards,

WindmanV


Yep supposedly it worked quite well, not far behind np V8 which has considerably more development- pretty sure I've still got the test lying around somewhere. At the extreme level as a race sail perhaps the concept wouldn't have worked due to changes in mast curve. Why didn't it work... perhaps because you wear out your sail 3x faster, also I think it rigged on 2 masts. It could be a viable product now that sails use wider chords, softer rdm masts and if they focused on just wave and freeride sails rather than the performance end- you always wanted that 4 and 4.5m for cranking days even though the sail you use all the time is 5m.

Unfortunately gimics don't sell in this sport, occasionally there are some interesting concepts- ezzy's power-on head, gaastra's total flow tip, hansen's leach panels, that sail from the uk that you don't downhaul etc. Unless there are significant improvements in performance the big companies will never pick up on them, also why pay the patent rights when everyone else is doing the same thing.

If you want to improve the range considerably hook up adjustable outhaul and downhaul first.

Bluedog76
243 posts
11 May 2009 5:44PM
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pirrad said...

a project i did a while back to make a small sail bigger for a land yacht.zip on section ,battens slotted into gaastra gtx batten adjusters,mast tip ext.wouldnt work [i dont think for a performance sail]could have merrits though for beginner-kids sails sub planing conditions.




Funny.....that looks just like the "compact clew" on the new NP race sails - obviously not zip on those sails.

I think if companies put the R&D in, they could come up with a competitive product - anything is possible but for the freeride windsurfer but would we find it sexy and apealing with only one or two sails taking up room in the shed.

I think the windsurfing market relies so heavily on gimmicks, it's not funny (no offence "mkseven") and for some reason, I buy into it every year, I think they just have to be sutble. For some reason, i just want this years board/sail/mast etc yet you can see guys from 10 -20 years ago blasting around, having fun, doing loops etc. Fat nose, no nose, teardrops now wide style, tail cut outs, double wingers, scoops, tunnels and the list goes on.

Twin fins were around in the ninties but only lasted a couple of years. It seems to do a loop every decade.

Don't get me wrong, there have been some massive leaps ahead that provide greater appeal to the market place, and then a whole lot of little changes that do nothing but differentiate a product from one year to the next

It's worse than the car market with all the acronyms. I think one of my favourites was the Gasstra MC2x - 2 adjustable external cams - actually a really good sail from what I remember, had it in a 5.7.

The thing is, am I having more fun than the guy 15 years ago, am I a better sailer or have I just done 1 year 10 years over - this is what I am trying to do now, get better and not do the one year over and over and I don't think that the gear is the limitation.

Hmmmmmmmm after all that crap following a couple of red wines - I still wouldn't like a zipper in my sail......not cool!

Jman
VIC, 873 posts
11 May 2009 8:11PM
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Gee todays sails have a bloody good wind range compared to the 1st sails I owned.

sboardcrazy
NSW, 8014 posts
11 May 2009 8:18PM
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Mathew said-
There is one solution that may help (or not...) -> rig up both sails, then use whichever sail is the correct size, and save the de-rig for packup time. Just make sure to tether you spare sail to something that wont blow away.

I did that last gale..unfortunately I didnt think of it until too late as by then i was too buggered to use them .I would have to buy extra masts etc though.I just happened to have a really old boom for my 3.3m ( one length & tie on inhaul).So if I ever get an extra mast + boom & extension etx it may work..more $$

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
11 May 2009 9:24PM
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bluedog no probs you are right , the whole industry does rely on gimics to set themselves apart but it often hurts those that do differ, for example alot of people were iffy about airpipes or very short boards. Unless it works exceptionally well you get those that may see an advantage, but generally to differ from the norm scares people. As they say evolution not revolution. Edit- i am referring to large gimics as opposed to say wingers etc.

Chris249
357 posts
11 May 2009 7:40PM
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I'm still iffy about airpipes - they've been around for decades and I have yet to see them work!

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
11 May 2009 7:50PM
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pirrad said...

a project i did a while back to make a small sail bigger for a land yacht.zip on section ,battens slotted into gaastra gtx batten adjusters,mast tip ext.wouldnt work [i dont think for a performance sail]could have merrits though for beginner-kids sails sub planing conditions.



have you thought of pulling the wrinkles outnear the boom,it may help. dont give up on the idea yet, it may have potential

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
11 May 2009 9:52PM
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sorry back onto adjustable sail, it can also be a bad thing- damage your sail you have nothing either side to use in the meantime. We windsurfers are a funny bunch, largely i think we are either technophiles or we just love seeing lots of shiny new toys. Anytime the industry has offered a solution it hasnt met acclaim- eg neilpryde shock concept- several sails, 1 mast, put into compact price effective package.

Bluedog76
243 posts
11 May 2009 8:05PM
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Bluedog76 said...

pirrad said...

a project i did a while back to make a small sail bigger for a land yacht.zip on section ,battens slotted into gaastra gtx batten adjusters,mast tip ext.wouldnt work [i dont think for a performance sail]could have merrits though for beginner-kids sails sub planing conditions.




Funny.....that looks just like the "compact clew" on the new NP race sails - obviously not zip on those sails.

I think if companies put the R&D in, they could come up with a competitive product - anything is possible but for the freeride windsurfer but would we find it sexy and apealing with only one or two sails taking up room in the shed.

I think the windsurfing market relies so heavily on gimmicks, it's not funny (no offence "mkseven") and for some reason, I buy into it every year, I think they just have to be sutble. For some reason, i just want this years board/sail/mast etc yet you can see guys from 10 -20 years ago blasting around, having fun, doing loops etc. Fat nose, no nose, teardrops now wide style, tail cut outs, double wingers, scoops, tunnels and the list goes on.

Twin fins were around in the ninties but only lasted a couple of years. It seems to do a loop every decade.

Don't get me wrong, there have been some massive leaps ahead that provide greater appeal to the market place, and then a whole lot of little changes that do nothing but differentiate a product from one year to the next

It's worse than the car market with all the acronyms. I think one of my favourites was the Gasstra MC2x - 2 adjustable external cams - actually a really good sail from what I remember, had it in a 5.7.

The thing is, am I having more fun than the guy 15 years ago, am I a better sailer or have I just done 1 year 10 years over - this is what I am trying to do now, get better and not do the one year over and over and I don't think that the gear is the limitation.

Hmmmmmmmm after all that crap following a couple of red wines - I still wouldn't like a zipper in my sail......not cool!




sorry mkseven, just re-read what I wrote - "so heavily it's not funny." - take the comma out. Agree with the large gimmics - those cool major sail cut outs around the boom have the look of a X wing fighter out of return of the jedi or something.

hardpole
WA, 576 posts
11 May 2009 8:58PM
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I long time ago I read about someone sailing around Tasmania, with a sail you could decrease in size (rolling up the edge and zipping it into a pocket I think). So long ago my memory might be playing tricks.

pirrad
SA, 850 posts
11 May 2009 10:58PM
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my project was meerly a back yard tinker[no wind day]i'm sure the technoligy is out there to do it .as for the marketing aspect perhaps the sail companies are a little short sighted ??? if a beginner could buy 1 mast ,1 boom ,1 sail with one add on, maybee even 2,they get hooked !! and we all know what happens when you get hooked $$$$$$$$ [and a board of coarse]

choco
SA, 4032 posts
11 May 2009 11:08PM
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Look see here:

www.winzurf.co.nz/co/com/multi/multi1.htm#DELTA3

mkseven
QLD, 2314 posts
12 May 2009 12:15AM
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where the multisail concept would be ideal is kids rigs

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
12 May 2009 1:14AM
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Could you extend the boom, and make a new clew in the add-on part of the sail?

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
12 May 2009 1:21AM
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hardpole said...

I long time ago I read about someone sailing around Tasmania, with a sail you could decrease in size (rolling up the edge and zipping it into a pocket I think). So long ago my memory might be playing tricks.



There was an ad in an old mag, it might've been reprinted in a recent issue as a flashback...I think the item was called a Reefer, which was a kind of clip which allowed you to roll your soft sail around the mast then strap it there, as you would reef a yacht sail to the boom.

If you use soft (unbattened) sails, then this lets you reduce the sail size as much as your boom will allow! Go from 6.5 to 3.5 if you like! And those old sails would last! The performance wouldn't be the same, but the old photos from Maui show that it was possible to rip on the old gear!

WindmanV
VIC, 741 posts
12 May 2009 5:16PM
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Hi, All,

Here is a Multi Sail ad showing their whole range:





Also, I wuz wrong. There was a test of a Multi Sail and here it is (note how long it took to downsize then upsize the sail):




I hope both images turn out correctly for all viewers.

SBC: please ask easier questions in the future (!)

Regards,

WindmanV

yoyo
WA, 1646 posts
12 May 2009 4:07PM
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I had heard they worked quite well as a sail but the idea never took off in the market. It really needed a major player to pick it up but why would they? There was also a 3 size version. You could reduce your quiver by 3!!

I still think it is a goer. A lot of guys are getting slammed on excess baggage by the airlines when they make dashes to the other side of the country.

NB the patent would be expired by now

choco
SA, 4032 posts
12 May 2009 6:32PM
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under two minutes to change sail size!,with all the new materials,sail design and fittings the concept would work second time round.

Wet Willy
TAS, 2316 posts
12 May 2009 8:04PM
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I like it! Extending the foot of the sail is such a simple idea!

I had previously envisioned having zip-off (or velcro) panels higher up, on the leech of the sail, but this would involve problems with extending the battens and unimaginable performance and reliability issues. The bottom panel could be extended so much more easily!


Also, what about the top panel? This is half a square metre or so which doesn't take much of a load, and could be removable, leaving you with a bit of mast poking out (the vario-top look) and a few inches of luff sleeve. You'd just need to add downhaul after removing it.


Attention, sail makers! I hereby volunteer to be your guinea-pig! (None of that kinky stuff, though...)



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"When are they going to invent an adjustable sail" started by sboardcrazy