Select to expand quotesick_em_rex said..
brilliant explanation and reply Daffy, bravo! 
Yes it deserves a Boom Boom from Micallef
Daffy who are you wise man of science?
Remind me to never get into a technical argument with you
Wow, the new tech in this device could eventually open up so much more info at hand whilst on the water. Not only is this super cool, but it also will lead to faster progression due to being able to alter technique after each run (rather than after each session when results are downloaded)..........I am sure we would all love this. Price if in the ball park is as expected for the tech. I am looking forward to the final product and testing. Thanks for your post Andrew.
Select to expand quotehardie said..
Daffy who are you wise man of science? Remind me to never get into a technical argument with you
Often in error, but never in doubt! 
Beautifully put Daffy. For a newby to GPS sailing it may seem a lot of money. I have had so much enjoyment from the improvement of my sailing due to the added drive to be on the water, fascination with what the data shows me and the friends I have met through the GTC. This makes the investment in good GPS technology hugely valuable to me.
And on the matter of accuracy and repeatability, I like to see how I am doing in relation to myself and others. Therefore accuracy is important to me. I still look at the trackpoint alphas high in the table, some sailors have not got within 2 knots with a Doppler Alpha. If the numbers are not credible we may as well type in how we felt we did and do away with GPS units!
With more than 3500 GPSSS and 1500GPSTC members there seems to be interest in reliable (comparable and verifiable) data.
Select to expand quotesailquik said..geoITA said..
It seems to me the thingsee may be interesting for those in need of compliance with GPSSS rules for record attempts, much less so for normal use by normal sailors. The 1 c 0Hz thing is ridiculous. The accuracy data, who cares. Micro SD is great. Wireless and Bluetooth, what for. Phone card even less so. Screen as big as the GT -31, very good. IPX7 not nearly enough. Long battery life, obviously! And, 250 USD sounds just crazy (assuming one is any concerned with money), much more so considering the very poor waterproofing (same as GT-31 means it will die as soon as the bag will happen to have the usual tiny crack). The Canmore makes much more sense to me, pity the tiny screen.
What is a 'normal' sailor? One who is interested in accuracy, not fantasy?
Ridiculous is trying to run a competition or ranking where there is no way to know if the numbers you are posting are real or not. Without accuracy data, or at least corroborating trackpoint data, (neither available in the Canmore) it is just luck and hope. Remember the first rankings and competitions with the Garmin 205 GPS? We now know that any ranking of 20 sailors within a few knots of each other was highly likely to be purely random. The error was so great it could easily cover many sailors. The Canmore maintains the same possibility, despite it being 'potentially' more accurate. You will just never know. Fantasy or fact?
The GT-11 and GT-31 introduced progressively higher accuracy confidence to the point where we could have meaningful competitions and rankings. Being able to have even more confidence in the accuracy and ranking can't be anything but great!
Wireless and Bluetooth have the potential to allow cable free downloads, something that many people have been asking for for years! Bluetooth also has potential for wireless waterproof headphones telling you your speed as you sail, or a screen on your boom showing you your speed as you sail. What about a BT Heads up display in your goggles?
Wireless and Phone connection provides the possibility of real time results sent to your computer or to a timekeeper in a competition. That would be revolutionary, and could make televising World Cup races and major speed events so much more interesting to viewers and sponsors. But would also make local events so much easier to organise and much more interesting. The possibilities just increased out of sight.
10hz has the potential to make the Alpha category much more accurate to the point where the rankings in GPS-SS and GPSTC will actually be real and not almost random. Why is having more of something good ridiculous? Heres a thing: What about the ability to see your Alpha run results at the end of every run! Not only that, it might be possible to program the display to tell you how much you missed the poximity circle by (if you did)! How much fun would that be?
How about the ability to see all the category results at the end of every run? Are at least program the device to show you the ones you are interested in, not just the top speed and 10 sec average.
Yes, waterproofing is not ideal, but that is something that can be built later. At least it won't die so readily if your waterproofing solution develops a leak. Remember that you have to carry the device in something anyhow. We have plenty of workable solutions for that already.
The cost figure mooted is in Euro. 200-250. Every rider I have spoken to at Lake George this year has expressed the opinion that they would be quite happy to pay that or more for the capabilities of this device. Remember that all have a quite significant investment in their chosen pastime. They have taken weeks off work and have driven from 7 to 25 hours to get here and will have spent up to 2 times that on fuel alone before they get home. Every one of them would have many thousands of $ worth of gear, cars, tents, caravans etc. Many sailors think nothing of spending A$1200 on a carbon boom, or A$1800 on a sail. they buy A$300 fins in bulk like they are disposable toys (and many are;-)). Why so hung up on the modest cost of the part of your equipment that is actually the great enabler to get you into this wonderful lifestyle and community of fun?
About one thing we agree, probably: "normal" is what one thinks normal is.
Ah no here is another: "Ridiculous is trying to run a competition or ranking where there is no way to know if the numbers you are posting are real or not", agree 100% of course.
And another one here: "Wireless and Phone connection ... could make televising World Cup races and major speed events so much more interesting to viewers and sponsors. But would also make local events so much easier to organise and much more interesting". Not my case, anyhow.
Probably my ideas are based on my old school engineering education. I tend to think that anything beyond what I actually need is better not to have. I have to admit that some things may come for free; such is the 10Hz capability (I guess one can still use it at 1Hz and save battery and memory) or the accuracy datas. But as for the bluetooth, the wireless, the phone card ... OK I understand we are practicing different sports, let's just say that personally I wouldn't need that, but if one has glasses with incorporated HUD at hand to use, who am I to discuss that.
The waterproofing thing, sorry no, I do not agree with you at all. My GT-31 died when the Aquapac developed a very tiny crack and let in just a few water drops. In my view IPX7 (or better say, "IPX7 same as the GT-31") is NOT NEARLY enough anyhow.
As for the cost. I see things there are OK and most sailors spend sums that are usually justified by PWA racing. Here is different, people often buy used sails and fins, let alone boards. I remember I was surprised to hear a friend, who is a very strong FW and slalom senior racer here and sail repair man, considering fuel costs in his choice about sailing spots (when there were significant differences in sailing conditions in given weather conditions). Throwing the same money that would get one a decent used carbon Zeta or CA fin for an instrument that one day will allow him to use "wireless waterproof headphones telling you your speed as you sail" and in the meantime will die when the Aquapac will start to think it's time to have some rest, well no, I don't think it will have that much success here.
Anyhow, there's no problem at all (I hope) in having different opinions. If I am lucky, one day I will see something like a Foretrex with effective screen waterproofing, GPS chip and antenna same as in the Canmore (it's smaller, so must fit) and a nice strap to wear it on my arm with no bag. Will easily do with the 'cradle' and cable download if that makes for easier or better waterproofing, as that reflects my priority order. At this moment my best choice is having a GT-31 or a Canmore in a Paqua bag. The Thingsee would do OK too, but it's not worth the cost for me; the only thing I would miss is the large screen actually.
On second thought. After all 200 - 250 € is more or less the price of a Garmin Foretrex when I bought mine. Let's say the price is OK after all, only one dislikes the idea of spending on a bunch of extra features he could probably never use. But still can't say it's much. Have to say also that not many Foretrex units were seen around here on the water, and the dedicated, cheaper GT-31 made significantly better.
Very well said Andrew, my sentiments exactly.
I guess if you're not competing wearing a canmore on your head could be all you need, as long as you take on board the chance of random inaccuracies.
Man!! In this day & age with technology as awesome as it is... WHY cant we have it all? a waterproof, large screen, cable free charging & down/up loading, commentary, battery life, everything in a convenient package. Hell, make 2 models one with all features and the other with the basics (thats how we buy cars for example)
With the device being made from the ground up, the important features should (have to) be included ie water proof! (would anyone buy a non water tight boat?) it has to be able to survive in the environment that its meant to be used in for crying out loud.
I still think they should be designing them to use existing, sound solutions to the problems they are trying to get past.
Id luv to be a designer but sadly Im not.
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!
Select to expand quoteBSN101 said..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!
Yep, we can put a man on the moon, there's just a slight question of money!!!!
OK if you're going to sell hundreds of thousands and get some sort of return on the R&D, but if you're only selling to windsurfers, there isn't a big customer base.
"I guess if you're not competing wearing a canmore on your head could be all you need, as long as you take on board the chance of random inaccuracies."
That's my idea too, apart I'd not wear it on my head and take on board the consequent extra chance of inaccuracies.
"... the important features should (have to) be included ie water proof! (would anyone buy a non water tight boat?) it has to be able to survive in the environment that its meant to be used in for crying out loud."
Glad to see it's not that weird to think taht, we are at least two.
What makes me a bit upset is the fact that the "right" instrument was almost there already ... again, take the Foretrex, make it really waterproof (just need the screen to be one piece with the body), put a modern GPS chip inside ... done. Maybe rearrange the firmware if possible.
Select to expand quotedecrepit said..BSN101 said..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!
Yep, we can put a man on the moon, there's just a slight question of money!!!!
OK if you're going to sell hundreds of thousands and get some sort of return on the R&D, but if you're only selling to windsurfers, there isn't a big customer base.
Do they want to sell hundreds & thousands of them? Then,
2 Models to cover basic & need(y)
Price point to suit the market/model/features and... wait for it....
ADVERTISE!
because thats how we windsurfers decide what to buy next.
Im in my own small business and I am growing my customer base each year.
Im sure that the vast majority of sailors don't really know anything about what these units can do.
Cycling has had them for years!
Of course anything is possible! But obviously, there is no business case for making all we want in a GPS plus making it as waterproof as a diving watch!
For the vast majority of users of GPS, 'waterproof' means you can dunk it in the water for a minute or so and it will be OK.
"Waterproof' to windsurfers is a completely different thing, and that degree is not something that is on the radar of the vast majority of users.
You can whinge about it as much and as loud as you like but that won't change the economics of it.
Or, you can get a $10 Otter box, or a Paqua arm bag, put your GPS in that and have it all right now.
We have talked to the various manufacturers of GPS in the past, asking them for small changes to their Firmware that will allow us to get the data we need from their otherwise quite good GPS, but they don't see any business case to do even these inexpensive changes. (Canmore is an excellent example). The first question they all ask is "how many 10's of thousands do you want to order?" What does that tell you?
We will keep trying and being optimistic though.......
Select to expand quotesailquik said..
Without accuracy data, or at least corroborating trackpoint data, (neither available in the Canmore) it is just luck and hope.
Why do you say that track point data are not available on the Canmore? The unit appears to save track points.
Just like in GT-31 data, there are occasional spikes in the track point-derived speeds and the doppler speeds (although spikes seem to be much less frequent, and some tracks do not have any at all). Here is an example:
The speed difference are visible when importing the .fit file into GPS Results and checking/unchecking the "Doppler" box.
The Canmore has its limitations regarding screen size, waterproofing, and battery life, but there is no need to badmouth it. I have spend quite a few hours testing and documenting this. If you have data that support your "just luck and hope statement", please share them.
Who else uses the GT31 and Canmore? or is it purely windsurfers?
With advertising I am sure that more sailors would be interested in having a tool to tell them how far & fast and more.
There may be only 2000 GPS speed sailors out there but I think that there might be more than double that number of normal sailors around the world? How many? How many GTs has Locosys made & sold? 2000?
If these companies that make them can't be bothered advertising their wares then how do they expect to sell lots? this aint rocket science, selling i mean.
I first read in a UK mag about GPS sailing late last yr. I learnt to sail in '84. I saw a unit back in the day that was stuck to the tail of the board with a tube in the water gathering data for speed with a large screen making the numbers visible. Must have been water proof cos there weren't any aqua packs back then. But the designers can't do that now! Go figure!
Sailquik, all you can do is be the voice for all of us frustrated sailors, and I thank you for that.
Who else uses the GT31 and Canmore? or is it purely windsurfers?
With advertising I am sure that more sailors would be interested in having a tool to tell them how far & fast and more.
There may be only 2000 GPS speed sailors out there but I think that there might be more than double that number of normal sailors around the world? How many? How many GTs has Locosys made & sold? 2000?
If these companies that make them can't be bothered advertising their wares then how do they expect to sell lots? this aint rocket science, selling i mean.
I first read in a UK mag about GPS sailing late last yr. I learnt to sail in '84. I saw a unit back in the day that was stuck to the tail of the board with a tube in the water gathering data for speed with a large screen making the numbers visible. Must have been water proof cos there weren't any aqua packs back then. But the designers can't do that now! Go figure!
Sailquik, all you can do is be the voice for all of us frustrated sailors, and I thank you for that.
Select to expand quoteBSN101 said..
Who else uses the GT31 and Canmore? or is it purely windsurfers?
With advertising I am sure that more sailors would be interested in having a tool to tell them how far & fast and more.
There may be only 2000 GPS speed sailors out there but I think that there might be more than double that number of normal sailors around the world? How many? How many GTs has Locosys made & sold? 2000?
If these companies that make them can't be bothered advertising their wares then how do they expect to sell lots? this aint rocket science, selling i mean.
I first read in a UK mag about GPS sailing late last yr. I learnt to sail in '84. I saw a unit back in the day that was stuck to the tail of the board with a tube in the water gathering data for speed with a large screen making the numbers visible. Must have been water proof cos there weren't any aqua packs back then. But the designers can't do that now! Go figure!
Sailquik, all you can do is be the voice for all of us frustrated sailors, and I thank you for that.
It's easy to guess that the GT-31 was used mainly by windsurfers. If the market was larger the manufacturer would probably have made a new version of it. But the manufacturer decided not to make a new version when had to redesign the unit due to chipset being no more available; they are offering a "box shaped" version of a cheap watch they already made instead now.
As for the Canmore: it's visibly NOT a speedsurfing specific unit. It's a cheap keychain sized unit, so a gadget to be offered to a huge public. By chance it is very close to what we "normal" sailors (not dedicated speedsailors) actually need, thanks to huge battery life, very good precision and a more than decent memory size. Pity the small screen, pity the very poor waterproofing.
I think what manufacturers can do is make units that can be sold to the general public and may be made good for windsurfing. That's why I insist that by asking generally useful features, such as good water resistance, good battery life, a decently large screen, maybe some will answer yes. If we ask for features that are useful to 2000 or so speedsurfers instead the answer will always be no, unless it happens by chance to be already built-in in the unit.
The Thingsee has 10Hz logging, precision data and all the rest just because it's built as a fully customizable device originally conceived for a totally different market.
I just discovered (it was easy, just had to visit their web site!) that Locosys even still offers the "Walker" datalogger with the 'old' SIRF STAR III chip inside, the same as in the GT-31! So, the chip was "unavailable" for the speedsurfing specific unit, but still there for a different unit which seems designed as a competitor for the Foretrex!
By the way: having the same chipset means one can expect the same precision as that of the GT-31; the Walker has a built-in 2Gb memory, same capacity as the SD cards the GT-31 could use; and the firmware is upgradeable. So, what's wrong with it? It seems to me the successor to the GT-31 is definitely there.
As I said: if we ask for features that may mean 2,000 more unit sold, maybe someone will answer yes; if we ask for features that mean maybe 2,000 units sold, the answer will probably be no.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
sailquik said..
Without accuracy data, or at least corroborating trackpoint data, (neither available in the Canmore) it is just luck and hope.
Why do you say that track point data are not available on the Canmore? The unit appears to save track points.
Just like in GT-31 data, there are occasional spikes in the track point-derived speeds and the doppler speeds (although spikes seem to be much less frequent, and some tracks do not have any at all). Here is an example:
The speed difference are visible when importing the .fit file into GPS Results and checking/unchecking the "Doppler" box.
The Canmore has its limitations regarding screen size, waterproofing, and battery life, but there is no need to badmouth it. I have spend quite a few hours testing and documenting this. If you have data that support your "just luck and hope statement", please share them.
Well thats news to me! I was going on what you and other people had posted. The info I got was that the Locational data was not saved in the .fit file. It's a mystery to me where I got that information. Now you have shown us that it is. I stand corrected.
EDIT: Now I think about it, I think I got that info from Canmore themselves and from the Dutch guys who were testing it as well. Are you sure the firmware has not been updated since it was released? I had quite a few exchanges with the tekkie at Canmore about the possibility of including the Location data in the output file.
In that case the data from the Canmore just got significantly better than any other GPS except the GT-31 which also includes error data.
If you convert the .fit file to .gpx, does it retain all the data?
Can you send me a .fit file please so I can run it and see how it works?
Select to expand quotegeoITA said..
I just discovered (it was easy, just had to visit their web site!) that Locosys even still offers the "Walker" datalogger with the 'old' SIRF STAR III chip inside, the same as in the GT-31! So, the chip was "unavailable" for the speedsurfing specific unit, but still there for a different unit which seems designed as a competitor for the Foretrex!
By the way: having the same chipset means one can expect the same precision as that of the GT-31; the Walker has a built-in 2Gb memory, same capacity as the SD cards the GT-31 could use; and the firmware is upgradeable. So, what's wrong with it? It seems to me the successor to the GT-31 is definitely there.
As I said: if we ask for features that may mean 2,000 more unit sold, maybe someone will answer yes; if we ask for features that mean maybe 2,000 units sold, the answer will probably be no.
I think you will find:
a. That unit is not being produced anymore and is old stock if it is still available.
b. Even though it used the same basic GPS chipset, the firmware would not have the same features or precision, and it certainly would not have the accuracy data saved. It may not save the Doppler speed data either, but if the output is in the NMEA format, it might be available.
c. If Locosys did indeed make that device still, and it was suitable for our needs, don't you think they would have offered it to us?
Select to expand quoteBSN101 said..
Who else uses the GT31 and Canmore? or is it purely windsurfers?
With advertising I am sure that more sailors would be interested in having a tool to tell them how far & fast and more.
There may be only 2000 GPS speed sailors out there but I think that there might be more than double that number of normal sailors around the world? How many? How many GTs has Locosys made & sold? 2000?
If these companies that make them can't be bothered advertising their wares then how do they expect to sell lots? this aint rocket science, selling i mean.
I first read in a UK mag about GPS sailing late last yr. I learnt to sail in '84. I saw a unit back in the day that was stuck to the tail of the board with a tube in the water gathering data for speed with a large screen making the numbers visible. Must have been water proof cos there weren't any aqua packs back then. But the designers can't do that now! Go figure!
Sailquik, all you can do is be the voice for all of us frustrated sailors, and I thank you for that.
AFAIK, windsurfers and a few ice sailors, land sailors and Yachties were the only ones buying the GT-31. I guess the Canmore is aimed at runners but I have no information on how successful it is in that market.
No amount of advertising will sell something to a market that does not exist.
There are over 4500 sailors who post on GPS websites, and there are probably a few more who use a GPS but don't ever post.
The device we used on the back of our boards was the 'SpeedWatch' made in Switzerland. There was another slightly different version called 'SpeedMate' which may have been made in the USA, but it had very similar features. They were completely sealed units that used solar power and were sensitive to the magnetic pulses from a rotating prop in close proximity. They had no buttons or controls at all. They disappeared off the market after a few years because the market was not big enough (and it was much bigger in the '80's than now). Sound familiar? I used these extensively in the 80's and early 90's. I thought they always read a bit slow! 
Select to expand quotesailquik said..BSN101 said..
Who else uses the GT31 and Canmore? or is it purely windsurfers?
With advertising I am sure that more sailors would be interested in having a tool to tell them how far & fast and more.
There may be only 2000 GPS speed sailors out there but I think that there might be more than double that number of normal sailors around the world? How many? How many GTs has Locosys made & sold? 2000?
If these companies that make them can't be bothered advertising their wares then how do they expect to sell lots? this aint rocket science, selling i mean.
I first read in a UK mag about GPS sailing late last yr. I learnt to sail in '84. I saw a unit back in the day that was stuck to the tail of the board with a tube in the water gathering data for speed with a large screen making the numbers visible. Must have been water proof cos there weren't any aqua packs back then. But the designers can't do that now! Go figure!
Sailquik, all you can do is be the voice for all of us frustrated sailors, and I thank you for that.
AFAIK, windsurfers and a few ice sailors, land sailors and Yachties were the only ones buying the GT-31. I guess the Canmore is aimed at runners but I have no information on how successful it is in that market.
No amount of advertising will sell something to a market that does not exist.
There are over 4500 sailors who post on GPS websites, and there are probably a few more who use a GPS but don't ever post.
The device we used on the back of our boards was the 'SpeedWatch' made in Switzerland. There was another slightly different version called 'SpeedMate' which may have been made in the USA, but it had very similar features. They were completely sealed units that used solar power and were sensitive to the magnetic pulses from a rotating prop in close proximity. They had no buttons or controls at all. They disappeared off the market after a few years because the market was not big enough (and it was much bigger in the '80's than now). Sound familiar? I used these extensively in the 80's and early 90's. I thought they always read a bit slow!
"an amount of no advertising will sell nothing to anyone interested" The market does exist its just about them being told its here for them.
And the potential market has more than doubled if the new toy is cheap enough and fully featured. And works for wet & dry applications.
I sail for fun, end of story. I started GPSTC with a Garmin Map62. Track point, but better quality than an Etrex. I understood Doppler is the go, but considering I paid $500 for my board and $250 for my sail, upgrading my gps was a low low priority. I did recently fork out $250 for a fin, but that was very out of character. So when the the Canmore turned up, I was keen to try out a cheap, compact, Doppler gps. I am very satisfied with it. I understand and agree with the need for better quality units for the elite sailors, but I hope mediocre cheapskates like me are still allowed to play
you are not cheap! My gear was over 15yrs old til about 3 months ago. I was lucky to get it!
Select to expand quoteBSN101 said..
"an amount of no advertising will sell nothing to anyone interested" The market does exist its just about them being told its here for them.
And the potential market has more than doubled if the new toy is cheap enough and fully featured. And works for wet & dry applications.
OK I've posted on the general forum, asking who'd buy a GPS, see if we get any answers.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/General-Discussion/Chat/would-you-buy-a-GPS/
feel free to add/change my parameters.
Select to expand quoteBSN101 said..
"an amount of no advertising will sell nothing to anyone interested" The market does exist its just about them being told its here for them.
And the potential market has more than doubled if the new toy is cheap enough and fully featured. And works for wet & dry applications.
You are wrong on both fronts:
1. The "market" for any electronic device that can be mass-marketed, needs to be at least 100,000 units... preferably 1 million. Pick *any* electronic device - companies that mass-manufacturing simply wont touch your idea until you can sell this many. Thus making this a standard requirement for just about any gadget manufacturer.
2. Do you really not see that Locosys doesn't need to be told ?... they already know.
Our puny market just doesn't cover it.
Select to expand quoteboardsurfr said..
So yes, .fit file generated with the Canmore GP102 contain track points.
Does it contain "error data" ? If not, then I think we just came full circle back to the first post.
