Select to expand quoteSchobiHH said..Bouke-Witchcraft said..Mark _australia said..
No argument there
My issues is a "wide board is better, look at wings"
Look at what?
A glider and a Edge540 and a F35 are all the same are they?
Its a silly statement. Then if anyone questions him, he yells that scientists advise him and nobody else knows anything about the science. He was the same in the fin thread.
Sorry guys, busy days over here, wind and waves every day and loads of customers.
The huge difference between a glider and an F35 is the amount of power. If you need to be power efficient, like us windsurfers also need to be, a wider, shorter board is more efficient. Like Mr Love also explained in different words. With any foil, the first part the medium we are in (water or air) makes contact with, provides the most power/lift. Off course there are other things to take into consideration like leverages and construction strength. With the amount of force of an F35, the wings of a glider would snap right off and with such speeds is not necesary either. With a very long and narrow windsurf sail, the leverage would get higher so harder to hold and the forces on the mast increase. With a board, once at speed more width becomes harder to put the rail (the leverage you can apply with your feet is limited) and to control.
This is a waveboard thread. your argumentation is flawed, or do you see F1 Cars at the Rally Dakar. Width main reason is not the Lift/Drag coefficent which your argument is, but because to have a bigger lever for the bigger fin you put into your slalom board. Which lets the board fly higher of the water which in the end reduces drag. Nothing else matters that much. BTW or why do think the tail in the slalom board is so narrow looking from under the board compared to the top. It is only the surface that touches the water that matter. Or why are Speed boards long and narrow. If width would be of any importance, speed boards would look different for sure.
But hey the earth is flat.
Why are speed boards long and narrow? They are narrow because they are used in more wind and to be sailed on a broad reach so there is more propulsion into the direction you are going. The power is the difference. If you have enough power you can get a tree trunk planing.Speed boards are as long as wider boards to have more control (against catapults for example) and have a low water entry angle. In lighter winds and more up wind courses you need a wider board. The wetted area in the tail is made narrower as once at speed, it will give more control and less drag, you need the width up front to get planing earlier. Width is more efficient than length. There are various reasons why most boards have a tapered outline: You get planing on the wider section and you have control and less drag once at speed on the tail. Plus on wave boards a tapered outline makes a board more reactive to foot steering. That are a lot of positive effects. Only if you go too extreme, the board can become twitchy and a wide board in the front becomes harder to bottom turn at speed. The width up front also helps with stability to uphaul a wave board in very light conditions. The tail width should then be adapted to the type of wave, on slow soft waves it can be kept wider to keep speed but on more powerfull fast waves a narrower tail is better because a wide tail would get bouncy and hard to turn. So we always need to be making compromises. When designing a light wind wave board for float n ride conditions, my first question is: Do you want to be able to uphaul? And if so, how good are you in uphauling? Some people can uphaul on a board that will sink under their weight but most people cant. What is the biggest and smallest sail you want to use on it and in which type of conditions? Beach breaks, point breaks, rips, wave type. Besides off course what counts is weight, skill level. Because long fins are more efficient (fins are indicated by length (or better said depth) is a more important indication for the amount of lift a fin will deliver, than area. Just like luff length is actually more important than sail surface) you need to counter balance the leverage of the fin. That is why the tail of slalom boards are wider than the planing area underneath. To be able to stand more outboard and counter balance the leverage of the fin. There needs to be a balance otherwise the board will ride too much on one rail or the other. With multifin wave boards with far less leverage of the fins (for a given area) and the need to be able to push on either rail when riding, the straps can and should be more inboard. Capiche? So what I said is nothing weird but is actually already widely used. Many people without a technical education, let alone a masters degree figured these basics already out a long time ago just by using common sense, trying and observing. But somehow because I said it, it is wrong????? Hahahaha.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..Grantmac said..Ola H said..Grantmac said..
Ola,
Can you make any comment about how to keep a larger board from riding very rough when there is some chop?
This is something I deal with a lot in the side/side-on sailing I do.
I assume you mean on the wave. But can you say a littel more about the type of chop. Is it still light winds but lumpy I groundswell where you still get a kind of high riding speed. Or something else?
It's gusty 5-6m conditions (I'm 95kg) where you need a bigger board to get through the lulls but it's either choppy windswell or cross chop on groundswell if that makes sense? Probably a place where a FSW makes more sense than a pure waveboard.
I have in the past used a windSUP on the lighter days and I may do that again.
Gestalt said..
V to counter chop.
Here is my float and ride board. 232x68 135lt. Foam and 2.5 layers volan. No sandwich.
in my experience longer boards aren't as much fun once planing on a wave because swing weight slows the top turn down. You can't really see it in the photo but there was a lot of effort put into rail and bottom shape. Outline is pretty much inline with ola comments and again is what it is because of how it functions. So every element of the board was chosen to produce a specific outcome.
i tried to simplify the design into a purely functional response to the issues faced in light wind. Sounds wanky but is an approach I'm comfortable with.
Thoughts on the Exocet approach of the step tail? Absolutely not radical but definitely reduces swing weight.
I like the Exocet approach. Have ridden one. The guy that owned it was trying back loops on it in the surf.
another guy I know, whom built my sup, also has a duck tail version i've used. They have their place, especially in fuller waves and for flat water blasting as they reduce drag well. But I prefer the mini simmons approach. It's the swing weight in front of the mast I notice most. It slows down the top turn. Like a mal versus thruster.
interested in ola's take on bumpy face. My take on it is thinner rails are needed to cut throughout the bumps on the wave face.
Which one did you ride? It's rare to get a review of them but they are definitely on my radar.
It was the older version the 10.5
I've also used my Lt in small surf
i can't fault the Exocet, they def cover lighter winds better than a mini Simmons shape as they go upwind much better and initiate the wave easier. I'm just relaying my specific tastes when on the wave.
A better comparison would be windsup v Exocet and for that the Exocet hands down for windsurfing/wavesailing and sup if you want to surf as well as wavesail
This one:
www.nzsailing.com/exocet-windsup-wave-102-570651
Because I'm considering that version in the 9'3"
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
It's gusty 5-6m conditions (I'm 95kg) where you need a bigger board to get through the lulls but it's either choppy windswell or cross chop on groundswell if that makes sense? Probably a place where a FSW makes more sense than a pure waveboard.
I have in the past used a windSUP on the lighter days and I may do that again.
Sorry for forgetting about this post. But if you want to stay with a regular shape (ie not a windsup or similar) and want to upsize it for better glide through lulls, I think the same thing applies for handling chop as on any style wave board. It is a bit hard to say exactly what makes a board handle chop though, but it it a fact that some boards just rides harder and some softer. What I have learned though, is that handling chop in super powered up conditions is not really the same as in low power conditions. For high power, chop handling comes a lot from the rocker and the general balance of the board, it it has to ride stable, be fast and free so that it can float over chop with the power on. Handling chop at lower speed and when less powered up rather has to do with the rails and boards with a bit of v helps to as do a bit of double concave up front. So a board with a relatively fast tail rocker, a v based bottom and softer rails (not just up front) will be the general recipe for a bord that both planes early but at the same time has a smooth way of gliding through the water.
Select to expand quoteOla H said..Grantmac said..
It's gusty 5-6m conditions (I'm 95kg) where you need a bigger board to get through the lulls but it's either choppy windswell or cross chop on groundswell if that makes sense? Probably a place where a FSW makes more sense than a pure waveboard.
I have in the past used a windSUP on the lighter days and I may do that again.
Sorry for forgetting about this post. But if you want to stay with a regular shape (ie not a windsup or similar) and want to upsize it for better glide through lulls, I think the same thing applies for handling chop as on any style wave board. It is a bit hard to say exactly what makes a board handle chop though, but it it a fact that some boards just rides harder and some softer. What I have learned though, is that handling chop in super powered up conditions is not really the same as in low power conditions. For high power, chop handling comes a lot from the rocker and the general balance of the board, it it has to ride stable, be fast and free so that it can float over chop with the power on. Handling chop at lower speed and when less powered up rather has to do with the rails and boards with a bit of v helps to as do a bit of double concave up front. So a board with a relatively fast tail rocker, a v based bottom and softer rails (not just up front) will be the general recipe for a bord that both planes early but at the same time has a smooth way of gliding through the water.
You don't mention width, does that have a significant impact?
I consider my 85L 2017 Quantum to be excellent in chop and very powered up even though it's wider than other boards I've ridden in that size.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
You don't mention width, does that have a significant impact?
I consider my 85L 2017 Quantum to be excellent in chop and very powered up even though it's wider than other boards I've ridden in that size.
No, width is not as important. Some quite narrow board can be hard work in chop if they are "hard rides" in themselves. In particular if it is low speed planing threshold riding, width is generally not a problem. For wave boards, I like to tune the width to the wave riding speed (and the rider). If the wave riding speed is slower, I like a bit of more width so that the rider can have enough leverage to push against. All surface area create drag though, so a lot of width combined with a slower curvier rocker can be draggy and hard to keep on a plane. So upsized boards (relative a certain sailor weight) in most cases need faster rockers, which means you have to incorporate other shaping tricks to make them turn well.
On another note: I was talking to a sailing buddy the other day. We are both light (70-73 kg) and both tend to be on small boards, 70-79 liters. We have noticed that most our friends, even very, very good sailors, gradually have moved towards bigger boards relative their weights. And what we kind of sense now is that over 10 years of this development, some of these people seem to have been getting worse at getting going early and tend to turn to bigger and bigger boards for light wind. I don't know of this is good of bad, it's just an observation. Nowadays also quite big (relatively speaking) boards can turn really well. But I think this development is kind of general and that boards are becoming faster and faster rocker-wise as a result of it. For example I rode one of the new JP's. The absolute newest one, that just hit the chops. It has a VERY fast rocker to the point of pretty much being completely straight in the tail. But yet it turns well in a super controlled and yeas way with absolutely no tendency to stalling in the turn, which can be a problem with fast rockered boards. Quite fascinating, in fact.
Very interesting!
I have been focused on narrow width and vee as main factors in chop handling but the Quantum doesn't have much of either.
I do notice that for me a more traditional shape rather than stubby seems to be easier to use.
It might be at my skill level that a windSUP is the best way of accessing waves in lighter conditions.
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..
This one:
www.nzsailing.com/exocet-windsup-wave-102-570651
Because I'm considering that version in the 9'3"
I've not seen that board before and surprised that it is very similar in shape as my custom windsup but mine doesn't have the step in the tail and is a touch wider. To be honest it's the most versatile board I have. For years was the only board I took camping. The windsup and a 5.6m sail. The whole family used it, catching waves, windsurfing etc. mine has a pretty heavy rocker. Slows it down a little but I'm ok with that.
on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.
I'm the ****est wave sailor on the planet and enjoy the windsup for the lightest winds. Kinda still need 7-10 knots or no mater the board things are very hard because there is no power to get over the white water.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..Grantmac said..
This one:
www.nzsailing.com/exocet-windsup-wave-102-570651
Because I'm considering that version in the 9'3"
I've not seen that board before and surprised that it is very similar in shape as my custom windsup but mine doesn't have the step in the tail and is a touch wider. To be honest it's the most versatile board I have. For years was the only board I took camping. The windsup and a 5.6m sail. The whole family used it, catching waves, windsurfing etc. mine has a pretty heavy rocker. Slows it down a little but I'm ok with that.
on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.
I'm the ****est wave sailor on the planet and enjoy the windsup for the lightest winds. Kinda still need 7-10 knots or no mater the board things are very hard because there is no power to get over the white water.
Very interesting. I figure under 7kts I'll just grab a paddle.
Do you have footstraps on your custom?
Select to expand quoteGrantmac said..Gestalt said..Grantmac said..
This one:
www.nzsailing.com/exocet-windsup-wave-102-570651
Because I'm considering that version in the 9'3"
I've not seen that board before and surprised that it is very similar in shape as my custom windsup but mine doesn't have the step in the tail and is a touch wider. To be honest it's the most versatile board I have. For years was the only board I took camping. The windsup and a 5.6m sail. The whole family used it, catching waves, windsurfing etc. mine has a pretty heavy rocker. Slows it down a little but I'm ok with that.
on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.
I'm the ****est wave sailor on the planet and enjoy the windsup for the lightest winds. Kinda still need 7-10 knots or no mater the board things are very hard because there is no power to get over the white water.
Very interesting. I figure under 7kts I'll just grab a paddle.
Do you have footstraps on your custom?
I tried the SUP sailing route for a while, but ultimately decided it was too much of a compromise to try to both surf SUP and surf sail on the same board. If it's cross on or need to climb over white water to get out, can't beat the Exocet longboards (and I assume the new Breeze boards too). Cross off with a channel or really long period swell then a floaty waveboard with foot straps is my favorite. Can go stupid light and still use it under the right circumstances, but even then 7 knots is too light. Maybe lulls of 7 knots and average of >10 knots.
The pros are unrealistically better sailors than us average sailors, but here's a good example of how light regular gear can go in cross off. Look at how glassy that wave face is!
www.facebook.com/federicomorisio/videos/1231200941647473/?mibextid=rS40aB7S9Ucbxw6v
Pros in light offshore long period ground swell is miles away from my use unfortunately.
Select to expand quoteTaavi said..
Float and ride with a normal board (ca +15 litres).
Hi Taavi, what percentage of your weight in kg is 15 L? I generally find that my weight in kg plus 20% is perfect for slog and ride. E.g. for me at 95 kg, 114 L is perfect , while for a 75 kg person, 75 + 20% = 90 L.
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.
I nowadays use the distance from the front strap front screw to the center of the mast track as my measurement of mast track position. Interestingly it varies by an absurd amount between brands. And it is an extremely important variable for the feel of the whole board. For example, a recent Quatro I checked cam in at 32cms and a recent JP at 37cms. This is a HUGE difference. The latest Simmer Fly (78) is at 32.
For my commercial boards, but even more so for my personal boards I have been decreasing this distance. My latest personal custom is at 29. Setting the mast foot that close toyou front foot will make you sail the rig more upright. A downside: your pretty much on the verge of catapulting quite often. An upside: the whole reaction of the rig becomes ultra fast.
Regarding your point: my latest board is also ultra thin in the tail. Normally my boards are very balances so that I can basically stand in the straps while sinking in a balanced way. By My latest boards is more or less a 78 liter board with 7 liters removed from the back strap and back. So it sinks INSTANTLY as soon as you loose your planing. When slogging you pretty much has to have one foot in front of the mast foot. Combined with a rocker curve the requires you to really get back on the board to plane early, this makes the board kind of challenging. But it can be done...
Select to expand quotephiln said..Taavi said..
Float and ride with a normal board (ca +15 litres).
Hi Taavi, what percentage of your weight in kg is 15 L? I generally find that my weight in kg plus 20% is perfect for slog and ride. E.g. for me at 95 kg, 114 L is perfect , while for a 75 kg person, 75 + 20% = 90 L.
@philn, same for me. 72 kg + 20%, i.e. ca 86 litres.
But the funny thing is I am using the same board in conditions that I wouldn't call slog and ride.
Watching videos of little guys in side off conditions makes me want to move somewhere warmer and cut my calories by half. You can get by with a much smaller quiver.
Not happening before retirement unfortunately.
Looking good Taavi.
Always like your video's and the camera angle except for your head in the picture... it distract a lot. I always put my hand on the right side of the screen watching your movies hahaaha. Cant you cut that part off?
Conditions also look good, were is that spot Taavi? Looking very nice.
Enjoy your video's a lot, especially when there is no wind
Select to expand quotemartR said..
Looking good Taavi.
Always like your video's and the camera angle except for your head in the picture... it distract a lot. I always put my hand on the right side of the screen watching your movies hahaaha. Cant you cut that part off?
Conditions also look good, were is that spot Taavi? Looking very nice.
Enjoy your video's a lot, especially when there is no wind
@martR
Slightly off topic but thanks! Haha, that's an easy and clever way, or perhaps just moving the window partially out of the computer screen would also work. The thing is, even a pretty "microscopic" change in the camera direction changes what's captured, and pretty much everything like how you wear the helmet or is there a hood under the helmet or not, etc. changes things. I should probably check every time before going to the water what ends up in the frame this particular time, which I sadly never do. I have found that when I think about filming too much, it makes my riding worse, and it's much easier to enjoy the day if using the camera is totally frictionless. And lately I have only spent around 20-30 min (mostly thanks to the davinci resolve's keyboard centric workflow) to throw these clips together, usually right after a session. Spending any more than that does not feel right, although it could improve the content.
The light wind day was in Yzerfontein, Cape Town. And the "slightly windier" clip at home was made here, sadly there has been hardly any windsurfing conditions lately - in our home spots I have only windsurfed some 3 times this year which is crazy : ( Hope you all get to ride much much more.
www.google.com/maps/@58.9442369,22.048927,457m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu
Select to expand quoteOla H said..Gestalt said..
on the stubby thing I'm convinced most stubby boards have the mast too far forward so you end up with a board with no nose and a whacked volume distribution that lacks ease of use. You need to set the mast at the rear of the track in light winds to balance the board. I've thrown the idea of mast track distance from tail out the window and set my track (and rocker) to mid point of the volume distribution.
I nowadays use the distance from the front strap front screw to the center of the mast track as my measurement of mast track position. Interestingly it varies by an absurd amount between brands. And it is an extremely important variable for the feel of the whole board. For example, a recent Quatro I checked cam in at 32cms and a recent JP at 37cms. This is a HUGE difference. The latest Simmer Fly (78) is at 32.
For my commercial boards, but even more so for my personal boards I have been decreasing this distance. My latest personal custom is at 29. Setting the mast foot that close toyou front foot will make you sail the rig more upright. A downside: your pretty much on the verge of catapulting quite often. An upside: the whole reaction of the rig becomes ultra fast.
Regarding your point: my latest board is also ultra thin in the tail. Normally my boards are very balances so that I can basically stand in the straps while sinking in a balanced way. By My latest boards is more or less a 78 liter board with 7 liters removed from the back strap and back. So it sinks INSTANTLY as soon as you loose your planing. When slogging you pretty much has to have one foot in front of the mast foot. Combined with a rocker curve the requires you to really get back on the board to plane early, this makes the board kind of challenging. But it can be done...
I'm definitely heading in that direction too. I'm kinda calling it an active rocker cause there is a point where I need to actively step back and hang off the rig and trust the board to just take off.
