Planing in 10-11 knots: What board, what sail?

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cammd said..

sailquik said..

The Formula board does not need an 11m or 12m sail for early planing and reaching. They only use huge sails on them for racing so they can go seriously high upwind and very deep downwind. With those sails they are impossible to control on a beam reach in typical planning winds!

Why limit yourself to mowing the grass on a underpowered formula when you could sail anywhere you want upwind and downwind by using the correct size sail.

Pointing a formula or raceboard deep downwind and going for hugh blast for a few km's is one of my favourite points of sail.

I disagree with not being able to reach on a formula, particularly in light winds (which this thread is about). It is true they don't like to reach in strong winds but very doable and enjoyable in "moderate winds" ie up to 15- 18knts

My point was that I am not underpowered for reaching on my Formula in 10 knots with a 7.5m or 8m sail. I can quite well go upwind and downwind as well. All I gain from larger sails is grief from the weight and heavy handling, and maybe a few degrees higher pointing, which is totally irrelevant if you are not racing, but of course is vital if you are racing. So for my weight (72Kg), a 7.5m or 8m sail is the correct size in 10 knots.

I totally agree with your last paragraph. When powered for racing in 18-20 knots, I find it totally out of control reaching.

In light winds, it is most pleasant and Jumbo size sails are not at all required, or even desirable.

Disclaimer: your milage may vary.

I have a 2002 Starboard Free Formula 198L, with a giant fin and my biggest sail which is an 8M Superfreak I think I can get my 100KG planing somewhere around 13 or 14 knots not really sure as wind is always up and down to some degree and of course a bit different away from shore where I measure it with a hand held meter. IMO the best sail for ultra light wind will be either a 10M Sailworks Retro or if you could find a used 11M Retro as they are no longer made or... a Hot Sails 10M Speedfreak which now comes with a single removable cam. Most very large sails usually have many battens and cambers, weigh a ton and are actually intended for racing by pros in much higher wind.

Good conversation and plenty of good points.

Nonetheless, I'm stubborn and need to try things on my own, so I'll probably put my hands on 10.0 race sail to pair with that SLW board. I'm 85kg, not 70-75kg and while the "laws of diminishing returns " might be true for some, it certainly didn't kick in yet when I sail my 8.5 vs my 7.5. There is a very clear and distinct difference in pull between the two. A 10.0 has 17% of added surface over the 8.5 and I really cannot see how it wouldn't add substantial traction. I enjoy sailing an 8.5 Lion as much as a 5.0 Revo. It's just different feel and both are delivering on the intended purpose with positives and drawbacks as well. With a 10.0, I'm not convinced that the drawbacks outweigh the positives for what I'd like to do. OK, a 9.6 could do it.

I see the point with the formula option and I agree that it would get me planning sooner than on a SLW. Yet, I have no strong rational for why I feel better about the SLW. Accessibility? Its 90cm, only? Want new but not used? Need it now? ...stubborn and impatient? If I find an old but still functional formula for a few 100 bucks, I'd give it a try, or better:
@Roo: I like your foil suggestion and I'll look into doctoring the Atom maybe next year. I didn't know foils could be fitted with "training wheels" / shorter foil mast. Definitely interested. Now I have something to explore next winter! Thanks for pointing this out.

Ultimatly, I'm not young and agile enough to get into freestyle. I do small jumps here and there, but what's left is speed, or the impression of. So, anytime I can feel the exhilaration of skimming the surface of the water, looking backward at the wake behind the board as it feels even faster, and surfing on the swell on the return runs, I'm happy! If I can do it more often in light wind conditions, all the better! That's that simple.

i learned windsurfing in 1978 and I know what old school cruising is. I'll get back into this when I'm 65!

Sails over 9.0m2 need 520 mast and >240cm long boom. If you want low weight and stiffness you'll need 100% carbon. A 10m2 rig will set you back over $3000 new, when you factor in sail, mast and boom. Foils can be purchased for under $2000 and can be used with an existing floating board and small sails. From comments in the foiling forum they look to be hard to learn as they require a different technique. However the users who master the art, really like them.

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FrenchToast said..

Beaglebuddy said..
French Toast, a 10M race sail isn't really intended for ultra light wind, pros use them in 20 knots, hence all the battens. You need lightweight, fewer battens, maybe three cambers.

Yep! I'm ready to ditch the race sail idea. You are right. Race sails are good overpowered and made for top end speed and I'm looking for bottom end early planing light wind traction. This makes perfect sense. Thank you. ...maybe not as stubborn as I thought I was!

There is a thread on Iwindsurf from a few years back where ideas exploring big sails for lightwind sailing - if I recall the benefic of formula sails plus mast and. Boom was not worth the weight?

recon given Ezzy 490 mast already in collection the lion 9.5 is the Go

I have both 8.5 and 9.5 the 9.5 makes a difference

will look for thread after work

Cheers jeff
ps. have a mate with 2016 jpslw and he uses a 9.5 severne overdrive and gets going at 100kg - just absolutely loves the combination. He steps down to a 80 wide jp slalom when wind picks up

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jirvin4505 said..

There is a thread on Iwindsurf from a few years back where ideas exploring big sails for lightwind sailing - if I recall the benefic of formula sails plus mast and. Boom was not worth the weight?

recon given Ezzy 490 mast already in collection the lion 9.5 is the Go

I remember commenting on that. People see 12.5M and think it must be for the lightest wind but look at the construction of those sails, they are designed for pros sailing overpowered, too much weight with the extra battens and cambers and with the giant mast and boom required to work well in ultra light wind.
I believe the Hot Sails Speedfreak will rig fine with a 490 Ezzy mast. The Sailworks Retro is designed for an SDM mast however.
I plan to purchase the 10M Hot Sails Speedfreak, I have the 490 Kilwell mast it was designed for and my boom will fit it. I like superfreak dacron sails and the speedfreak is partially dacron. I also like how they have made the current model lighter and added a camber.

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Beaglebuddy said..

jirvin4505 said..

There is a thread on Iwindsurf from a few years back where ideas exploring big sails for lightwind sailing - if I recall the benefic of formula sails plus mast and. Boom was not worth the weight?

recon given Ezzy 490 mast already in collection the lion 9.5 is the Go

I remember commenting on that. People see 12.5M and think it must be for the lightest wind but look at the construction of those sails, they are designed for pros sailing overpowered, too much weight with the extra battens and cambers and with the giant mast and boom required to work well in ultra light wind.
I believe the Hot Sails Speedfreak will rig fine with a 490 Ezzy mast. The Sailworks Retro is designed for an SDM mast however.
I plan to purchase the 10M Hot Sails Speedfreak, I have the 490 Kilwell mast it was designed for and my boom will fit it. I like superfreak dacron sails and the speedfreak is partially dacron. I also like how they have made the current model lighter and added a camber.

No, your wrong, formula sailors choose a 12.5mtr race sail over a 10mtr freeride sail in the ultra light stuff (7 knots is the lower wind limit for races) because that's the best sail for those conditions if you want to get planning.

They are certainly not overpowered with those size sails in that wind. At 7 knots they are on their very lowest limit possible to plane, the opposite to overpowered and often need to pump to get on the plane and keep the on the plane.

A big sail is certainly a heavy beast and quite a physical thing to handle, pumping one of those onto the plane and keeping it going in light stuff can be very difficult and not a relaxing affair. So you can argue that its not worth investing in the extra effort and extra money (equipment) in order to get going 1 or 2 or 3 knots sooner than a 10mtr freeride sail.

For someone racing it is worth the extra effort and expense because it means the difference between being able to compete in a race or not at the bottom wind limit for formula races. For a recreational sailor not so much.

But to say a 12.5mtr race sail is not meant for the lightest conditions and to say a 10mtr is more efficient and will get you going earlier is rubbish. If that were the case formula racers would be using 10mtr speedfreaks instead of 12.5mtr evo9.'s or reflex 8's

here is a lightweight of 70 kilos who says he can plane in 8 knots !!!

or like the kiters say "come on down !!"

Most boards that are 75cm wide over 240cm long (Length = glide) weigh < 8kg with a good 46-48cm slalom fin and a powerful 7.5/8m camless sail like the Sailworks Retro or Ezzy Cheetah will plane in 10-11kn.
Remember for light wind = high boom to unweight the board and let the rig take your weight, mast track middle to back, lift the windward rail to ride the fin, don't use the back strap too early and a few good pumps

The problem is when you get lots of 6-8kn lulls for which you need to go bigger. my old 2002 SB 186 formula board 268cm long x 100cm w x 9kg
http://2002.star-board.com/products/formula186.asp
with a 65cm fin will easily plane in 8kn and stay on the plane in most 6kn lulls. with a 9m Retro or a 9.5m Ezzy Cheetah.
Also found that a 490 sdm mast is better for light wind than a rdm tried the 2cam 9.5 Lion but was hard work compared to the camless Cheetah and use a adjustable outhaul

do you have the HSM SPF 10 m with one camber ??
GEM has been trying to convince me to get one ...
i have the 8.5 and use it on MEQ2 longboard and on a JP SLW92
also use a MS TR-4 10 m sail on the JP
keep wondering if a lighter sail would be more "user friendly"
did NOT like the large 2 camber MS2 sails
wonder if i would/could like the SPF 10 ??

as i am colourblind, i am ONLY concerned with performance

No cambers on either my 10 or 8.5 Speedfreak sails.

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Paddles B'mere said..
No cambers on either my 10 or 8.5 Speedfreak sails.

damn - was wondering about the SPF WITH one camber ...

NO ONE can beat a Serenity in low winds - BUT it does NOT plane and becomes a handful when winds pick up !

thought it was determined that wrinkles disappear when under wind power ie on the water
as in previous discussions - that's what they do with facial wrinkles too - pull em back with force
the SPF 10 is supposed to rig on a 490, which surprised me
luff of 521 - means 31 cm extension ...
i will assume Paddles is using an SDM ??
.
from HSM forum:
http://www.hotsailsmaui.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4033

here's a pic of mine ... with a NP 490 SDM
.

and a video in light winds on the Equipe 2 XR