Hello
Though side on/on shore are not my favourite conditions, I should improve my wavesailing performance to enjoy those days.
Lately we've seen many new stubby thruster boards which promise convert an on shore boring day into an action one.
I guess the old twins should turn easier and tighter but keep speed worse and have less upwind and planning performance than the flat and wide tail stubbies. There are also allround wave boards and even freewave thruster boards which pretend to be very good as on shore wave boards.
Did someone compare this kinds of boards in the same size and conditions to come to any conclusion?
Cheers
I trust your browsed through most of my tests?
windsurfing.lepicture.com/board-tests/
You're right about twins turning more abruptly (for the same shape). With a more upright shape, they can be quick and head upwind nicely.
Fat tailed stubby is different. I only tried free wave version but couldn't get it to turn over my front foot with full rail turns. Some wave stubby folks are quite convinced though especially in the 77L range. Maybe width becomes a problem beyond.
What are you looking at more precisely in terms of boards?
Nothing specifically. I found it was an interesting topic. Manufacturers are always improving but I'm not sure if new things are always better than older ones.
Oh I see. Anything better usually makes something else worse 
!
Some boards tick a lot of boxes sometimes, those are keepers!
Select to expand quote
Impressive collection of tests and very nicely analyzed written up.
I will come back with some more discussion, but I'll just put two outline pics of two boards that used to be "stubbie" Simmer production boards. They are quite different so it is not so easy to generalize.
OK... I think there are as many answers to what is a good onshore wave boards as there are sailors... almost. First, you write waveSAILING but it is a bit unclear of you refer to the whole shaboom with both jumping and riding, or just riding. I reckon that for jumping, the spectrum of individual preferences is rather small. Early planing and a certain degree of pop (if it's light) and a stable ride are what you want. The "twin generation" twin boards were not always very good in this department, but "theoretically" twin fins can be VERY good at this. In fact, rockers on production wave boards have gotten faster since the twin days, and outlines a bit more compact. These kind of modern designs with a twin fin setup are generally great for speed, planing and general jumping oriented sailing. But what about riding then? It is here personal preference and competence comes in. Onshore wave riding is very, very hard and super technical. You want a board that helps you with what are the biggest hurdles for you to progress and ride better and have more fun. For some, I think some of the old twins could be a good answer. Maybe if you more or less end up going where you want to go, ie draw reasonable lines, a twin can help with spicing the ride up. I don't think a twin will so often help you with the lines as such. Old twins mainly help by being a bit "slashier". Moderns stubbie thrusters... well it depends on what you means. The ones defined by more or less being long boards with chopped tails and noses have a distinct advantage of low drag when on rail. So they can be amazingly helpful if your problem is keeping speed throughout a long bottom turn. They are not as such super turny, but with their shorter tails they turn tight when pushed. But pushing requires technique so they will not turn tight for everyone. If you are a super ripper that want's to develop your onshore style, my answers would depend on information on how you want to sail. I personally think it is impressive with people that can keep a flowing carving style in onshore, and this is how I want to sail and I develop my setup to help me do this. But others might want other things, ie doing takas and stuff. So it will be horses for corses...
Super interesting topic idea.
To my understanding there is different sorts of "onshore" :
-1st : the wind angle: dead onshore or side onshore.
- 2nd : wind speed : marginal or well powered up.
-3rd : wave size and power
Dead onshore can be pretty fun if waves are very small. I would say the best board in those condition are a merge between a fast waveboard and a freestyle board (not necessary a board branded as "fsw")
In side on, to me it really depend on the wind, if it s strong then a short, grippy, highly rockered is the way to go. The severne nano 2 and 3 are good exemple I guess.
If it's on the light side, and wind doesn't overcome the current, then you have to find the ballance of rocker between turning radius and planning efficiency.
It seems that there many different design of on shore wave boards. Some are long, some are short, some are rockered, some are flat, some are wide while some other are narrow
Oh I'm more with you now.... I feel like stubbies need a more upright stance which let's us glide and pivot quickly. The kode wave is actually similar that way but could still be banked hard and not fall on its face.
We also need to adapt our turns depending on the wave and the board. When on, we really need to crank hard to try and reach the wave behind us (as opposed to beside us in side conditions).
Tri's offer better upwind and better jumping. Also a bit easier to control at the top turn with a bit of added safety at the bottom.
I'm sure riders of both twins and stubbies will add to this.
Besides style, waves, types of moves, weight, etc, there's also how much powered we like to be. And whether we ride bigger or smaller volumes relative to the board!
Select to expand quoteSideshore said..
Hello
Though side on/on shore are not my favourite conditions, I should improve my wavesailing performance to enjoy those days.
Lately we've seen many new stubby thruster boards which promise convert an on shore boring day into an action one.
I guess the old twins should turn easier and tighter but keep speed worse and have less upwind and planning performance than the flat and wide tail stubbies. There are also allround wave boards and even freewave thruster boards which pretend to be very good as on shore wave boards.
Did someone compare this kinds of boards in the same size and conditions to come to any conclusion?
Cheers
I'm going to answer this without reading what others have already written in reply. Maybe I'll make a fool of myself, but it's important here to understand what you are asking.
1. There are different types of boards and then there are different fin set ups. For example, what is a stubby board nowadays? (Most people think of that as a shorter board with a truncated tail and nose. But we've actually stopped using that term since all wave boards became quite short. Most new wave boards are either old school, at 2.30cms long, or new school at 2.20cms. In either range, they still get longer and wider as their volume increases)
2. And in fact all types of board can be sailed with different fin set ups. Those fin arrangements simply need to work with the board design and hull shape.
2. Twin fin set-ups line up one relatively-small fin with its adjacent/paired second fin. Both fins produce lift but only when you are moving forwards - which is why they don't take sideways load until you are planing. That fact in turn affects what early planing technique you use, because you can't load the backfoot until planing. If you have no early planing technique, then you hate them.
3. So twin fins are sloppy tailed when going slowly but can rotate in a tighter arc in a turn because one fin can follow the path of the pair leader. Twin fins are actually quite fast, in the right hands.
4. Board speed relates first to hull shape - and to the rider - but fins will be slower the more you have. The fin drag comes from surface area relating to the fin size, and there's secondary drag from the tip vortex of each fin.
5. The fin advantage of a Tri fin set up follows that of the old-school single fin . If you stick a long centre fin in your board then that allows the fin to produce leverage or torque at the board tail. You use body weight to hold that toque down and that in turn allows the board tail to lift, and for the board to then fly at greater speed on a short tail length - like with a slalom board. But that same torque lift is then problematic in the turns, with the tail wagging the dog when the board travels at top speed. So we generally say that tri fins can be fast and they help for jumping, but are less loose in the gybes and on the wave face. But, as with all fins, that also depends on what fin length you use. In waveboards, tri fins work just fine as a simple compromise - until you stick too long a centre fin in your board.
6. One top tip with all wave gear is to not use long fins if you want to wave ride. If your focus is for jumping then go 1 cm longer on the centre fin, but maybe ruduce the thruster fin size. .
7. You then mention onshore conditions, where wave riding is more difficult but where jumping can sometimes the easier. So, what do you personally want to do? Twin fins are not slow, and can therefore jump well (note Mr Koster's choice of fins). The tri fin set up however can be simpler for those still learning to jump and ride.
8. If you are tempted to put longer fins in your board, then maybe get your technique and mast foot set up checked first. People who use too long a centre fin, or too much fin area, are usually the same people who set the mast foot too far forwards.
9. Personally, I think I'd focus on board shape and board size first, over fin choice. Thise are the key things when adapting to different conditions. For onshore, you need more float, and less board rocker. You don't need to use the word 'stubby' anymore.
10. I may regret some other these sweeping statements in the morning. Who knows?
Good info from the previous posts. I'd agree with Basher that the board is more important than the number of fins. My favorite onshore wave boards are the 2020 Quatro Cube set up as a twin (put a blanking plate in the thruster boxes), or the 2017 Mini Thruster. The more onshore it gets the more the Mini Thruster outshines the Cube in keeping speed going DTL with the clew open. At that stage it's more about rocker and shape that allows the board to maintain speed than the number of fins.
Select to expand quoteNicko29 said..
Super interesting topic idea.
To my understanding there is different sorts of "onshore" :
-1st : the wind angle: dead onshore or side onshore.
- 2nd : wind speed : marginal or well powered up.
-3rd : wave size and power
Dead onshore can be pretty fun if waves are very small. I would say the best board in those condition are a merge between a fast waveboard and a freestyle board (not necessary a board branded as "fsw")
In side on, to me it really depend on the wind, if it s strong then a short, grippy, highly rockered is the way to go. The severne nano 2 and 3 are good exemple I guess.
If it's on the light side, and wind doesn't overcome the current, then you have to find the ballance of rocker between turning radius and planning efficiency.
It seems that there many different design of on shore wave boards. Some are long, some are short, some are rockered, some are flat, some are wide while some other are narrow
Let's go in the most demanding conditions: Tight turning wave riding+ light wind+ good planning and upwind performance. Looking at different tests on the net the winner would be fanatic stubby, but don't know why it's not so successful in bigger sizes as Manuel7 said.
In my opinion the king of tight turning would be the twins, but not in light wind, due to planning and upwind worse performance.
Good to mention concrete board models.
From what I understood, the stubby isn't design for light wind and don't perform in those condition. It needs to be ridden approx equal in bodyweight to volume. The 77 was klaas Voget baby. The 82 has been added for (because of) Victor and possibly Adam Lewis.
"Let's go in the most demanding conditions: Tight turning wave riding+ light wind", would you some rip tide current added for free
The starboard blackbox (trailer) was made for that which has evolved in the current Bruch Happy (thruster).
"In my opinion the king of tight turning would be the twins, but not in light wind, due to planning and upwind worse performance."
Not sure why you say that.
Trifin thruster can be very good at turning tight as they help holding the rail in the bottom on the face. You can often adjust their position and make set them close together to "shorten" the turning radius. And the slighty longer, and so "lifty-er", center fin can allow for some more rocker and/or narrower tail.
On the other side, the win set up has little drag and a decent lift allowing for good planning threshold and topspeed.
At least that's my feeling with my two personnal boards (@75kg):
- Patrik TWW 83, twin : Fast, early planning, ok turning
- Quatro pyramid 86, thruster : bad or average planning, ok to good speed, great turning
Select to expand quoteSideshore said..
Looking at different tests on the net the winner would be fanatic stubby, but don't know why it's not so successful in bigger sizes as Manuel7 said.
I had the Fanatic Stubby 99 and the Fanatic Freewave Stubby 105. The Stubby 99 performed better than the Freewave Stubby in good quality waves and cross shore conditions, but the Freewave Stubby was better in cross onshore conditions. The Freewave Stubby was also better in light wind conditions.
Select to expand quoteSideshore said..Nicko29 said..
Super interesting topic idea.
To my understanding there is different sorts of "onshore" :
-1st : the wind angle: dead onshore or side onshore.
- 2nd : wind speed : marginal or well powered up.
-3rd : wave size and power
Dead onshore can be pretty fun if waves are very small. I would say the best board in those condition are a merge between a fast waveboard and a freestyle board (not necessary a board branded as "fsw")
In side on, to me it really depend on the wind, if it s strong then a short, grippy, highly rockered is the way to go. The severne nano 2 and 3 are good exemple I guess.
If it's on the light side, and wind doesn't overcome the current, then you have to find the ballance of rocker between turning radius and planning efficiency.
It seems that there many different design of on shore wave boards. Some are long, some are short, some are rockered, some are flat, some are wide while some other are narrow
Let's go in the most demanding conditions: Tight turning wave riding+ light wind+ good planning and upwind performance. Looking at different tests on the net the winner would be fanatic stubby, but don't know why it's not so successful in bigger sizes as Manuel7 said.
In my opinion the king of tight turning would be the twins, but not in light wind, due to planning and upwind worse performance.
Good to mention concrete board models.
Mate - I love stubbys , and do they do work in bigger sizes (so long as you add some k4 3deg 10cm fronts) .... Im 78 kg , can crank turns really well still on stubby 99 , 88 .... etc ... 82 is epic ..... Side on I wouldn't look at anything else really as the upwind speed you get an extra bottom / top turn or 2 every wave - I look at my mates on other boards , and usually I'm heading out pointing much higher every run - an extra 5deg pointing over a distance adds ALOT of upwind credits to spend on the way in .... You can do ridiculous turns on stubbies ... and the trifin gives alot of light wind drive - when a twin will sometimes struggle .... The STUBBY was really legitimate imo before fanatic tweaked it - and Goya released something almost the same (nitro) a couple of years later ... can't rate them enough ... And I regularly use in sideshore and slower period waves - work amazing .... THE ONLY THING I don't like is the power of the tail , which is great at adding drive / lift in shoddy conditions - amazing for aerials etc -BUT - IF YOU GET IT WRONG - can be really hard on ankles and feet. .... Last time I used my 82 - hit the lip late - the width/power of the tail snapped my ankles back good - same on wave360's etc - you either fly around - or leave the beach limping ... Also - ive landed aerials a little tail heavy - real impact through the lower joints .... Other than that - they rip .. And they drive out of turns - a twin will slide and regather - a stubby will drive all the way through ....
I also love really hardcore sideshore boards - custom quatros etc - and the stubbies stack up imo in their preferred conditions ...
What fin shape are people preferring for onshore? I usually use K4s because it's rocky here and they can take a beating.
I didn't get on with the Scorcher that well, feels like too much rake. I think I'm after something more upright to get the upwind drive and pivot.
Thoughts from the collective?
The absolute game changer fin for me for stubby is the MFC TF2 - I use the 18cm I think - .... works way better than the stock swept back fanatic fin , lots of pivot .... With k4 Ezzy 3 deg fronts ..... AI k4 fronts also work really good - you can go a cm bigger with AI over Ezzy .... so for me an 11 AI , or 10cm Ezzy front (3 deg)
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
The absolute game changer fin for me for stubby is the MFC TF2 - I use the 18cm I think - .... works way better than the stock swept back fanatic fin , lots of pivot .... With k4 Ezzy 3 deg fronts ..... AI k4 fronts also work really good - you can go a cm bigger with AI over Ezzy .... so for me an 11 AI , or 10cm Ezzy front (3 deg)
Reminds me of the K4 Stubby, a fin I've liked for Twin and Quad.
The Leon is faster but not quite as good low end.
I should probably try their FSW fin but it's significantly more money and I'm a tightwad
I tried with k4 stubby - old version and newer - not same as TF2 .... not quite as much grip ....
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
I wish k4 produced the ezzy in .1 deg incrimates so i can fine tune my setup.
Stop being a dick gesalt .... hey - while your at it - check out marc pare interview on windsurf.tv where he totally says stock set ups are the future ....
Hey you spelt my name wrong. Can you please take better care of my emotional safety in future.
I love windsurfing tv and watched the whole interview when it came out. I always like to keep an open mind to all sides of a story. Like, the toe is the future side, and, the Kosta won how many world titles on production side. Anyways are multi fin boards with toe futuristic. I swear I had them in the late 80's
speaking of kosta and how that ties into this thread. I saw some photos of him at pozo with asymmetric thruster Fin setup in his quad. I guess the evolution of that could be quads with the rear fins out on the rails.
Optical illusion or Koster trying new things. I read somewhere that some aussies tested asymmetric fin setups in the 90's and blind tests weren't able to confirm any differences. Wierd science..
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..Sideshore said..Nicko29 said..
Super interesting topic idea.
To my understanding there is different sorts of "onshore" :
-1st : the wind angle: dead onshore or side onshore.
- 2nd : wind speed : marginal or well powered up.
-3rd : wave size and power
Dead onshore can be pretty fun if waves are very small. I would say the best board in those condition are a merge between a fast waveboard and a freestyle board (not necessary a board branded as "fsw")
In side on, to me it really depend on the wind, if it s strong then a short, grippy, highly rockered is the way to go. The severne nano 2 and 3 are good exemple I guess.
If it's on the light side, and wind doesn't overcome the current, then you have to find the ballance of rocker between turning radius and planning efficiency.
It seems that there many different design of on shore wave boards. Some are long, some are short, some are rockered, some are flat, some are wide while some other are narrow
Let's go in the most demanding conditions: Tight turning wave riding+ light wind+ good planning and upwind performance. Looking at different tests on the net the winner would be fanatic stubby, but don't know why it's not so successful in bigger sizes as Manuel7 said.
In my opinion the king of tight turning would be the twins, but not in light wind, due to planning and upwind worse performance.
Good to mention concrete board models.
Mate - I love stubbys , and do they do work in bigger sizes (so long as you add some k4 3deg 10cm fronts) .... Im 78 kg , can crank turns really well still on stubby 99 , 88 .... etc ... 82 is epic ..... Side on I wouldn't look at anything else really as the upwind speed you get an extra bottom / top turn or 2 every wave - I look at my mates on other boards , and usually I'm heading out pointing much higher every run - an extra 5deg pointing over a distance adds ALOT of upwind credits to spend on the way in .... You can do ridiculous turns on stubbies ... and the trifin gives alot of light wind drive - when a twin will sometimes struggle .... The STUBBY was really legitimate imo before fanatic tweaked it - and Goya released something almost the same (nitro) a couple of years later ... can't rate them enough ... And I regularly use in sideshore and slower period waves - work amazing .... THE ONLY THING I don't like is the power of the tail , which is great at adding drive / lift in shoddy conditions - amazing for aerials etc -BUT - IF YOU GET IT WRONG - can be really hard on ankles and feet. .... Last time I used my 82 - hit the lip late - the width/power of the tail snapped my ankles back good - same on wave360's etc - you either fly around - or leave the beach limping ... Also - ive landed aerials a little tail heavy - real impact through the lower joints .... Other than that - they rip .. And they drive out of turns - a twin will slide and regather - a stubby will drive all the way through ....
I also love really hardcore sideshore boards - custom quatros etc - and the stubbies stack up imo in their preferred conditions ...
Coming back to the topic, because there is another thread about toe in fins running now with hundreds of comments, and looks scary to get into that 
Seabreezer, how do you see fanatic stubby for float&ride cross shore conditions? Do you know the main differences with the new mamba? It seems Mamba is more polyvalent but gets planning a bit later?
Hi thrusterquad
I like Stubby for Float ride sideshore - Because if its light - the wider tail helps generate precious frontside speed , and speed gives you options ..... I also like when its marginal that boards 'push back' and give you drive on the rail - liken it to trying to 'power up' the wave conditions to give the same amount of drive in sideshore with 4.5 / pintails ... Light VERY sideshore can be brutal for developing / maintaining speed - so you still need help with kit / board power .... I know alot of side onshore guys will think sideshore is NIRVANA - alot of energy to tap into etc etc - but when your also used to fraction side off , side off , and offsideoff - then sideshore is still limited in lighter windstrengths , especially if its very very sideshore - you have to be extremely proactive to develop speed
I also love the stubby as the wider tail / rail line sets the rail in these roundhouse carves REALLY NICE ... the straighter rail line drives through the carve quite hard - where a narrower tail / tapered rail will 'pivot' a bit more - which can lose drive .... Ive watched some good guys sailing the mamba - incl the promo vids at hookipa , and for me .... it looked a little unconvincing in turns , almost the best of both bad worlds ....and ive watched some POV footage with a good sailor on the mamba - and I just didn't like the way it drove through the turns . There's something special imo the way you can set up a turn on a stubby , its like the nose will drive Around an imaginary arc - and the nose kin of stays at tail height (more horizontal plane say ) , where a mamba might - drive the nose downwards more .... Im not explaining the sensation very good - but Ive had INSANE turns on thew stubby , setting turns very square to the lip on entry .... I also like how on the stubby , you can move the cluster fractionally more together , by pulling the fronts back a bit - and suddenly you can do these radical 'tail pop release turns ' .... which helps to liven things up in pretty boring low power sideshore conditions ... AND , lets mention also that more stubby drive = more power to push your bottom turns more vertical ...
I like alot of Bouke's views ... some though I disagree with totally - and the stubby / wide tailed vanguard outlines is one of them . Adam Lewis and Victor were doing some of the best turns EVER on stubby , and there's footage of Adam Lewis using the 82 at gnarloo and doing some amazing Jaeger stone like turns - huge fantails of spray - and that was full power side off conditions ... so the stubbys have alot of range ....
Thruster/quad - what sort of period swell sideshore do you get ? .... beach breaks or reef ?
Great feedback. It'd be nice to discuss over specific images. How do you feel a choppy face affect your riding on the different boards?
Select to expand quoteGestalt said..
Optical illusion or Koster trying new things. I read somewhere that some aussies tested asymmetric fin setups in the 90's and blind tests weren't able to confirm any differences. Wierd science..
Maybe on boards back then - heavy v designs etc - or say more extreme concave measurements , maybe there wasn't 'huge' differences in feel - ie the bottom shape/concvaes providing alot of that straight-line drive ESPECIALLY with longer waterline lengths (ie 40cm longer ) .... BUT .... ever since we went to subtle concave , single concave , doubles inside singles , and lighter v's etc - and compact planshapes it shifted ALOT more work onto the fins to perform ... so maybe that's the reason .... ? so maybe not so weird science after all ....
Select to expand quoteseabreezer said..
Hi thrusterquad
I like Stubby for Float ride sideshore - Because if its light - the wider tail helps generate precious frontside speed , and speed gives you options ..... I also like when its marginal that boards 'push back' and give you drive on the rail - liken it to trying to 'power up' the wave conditions to give the same amount of drive in sideshore with 4.5 / pintails ... Light VERY sideshore can be brutal for developing / maintaining speed - so you still need help with kit / board power .... I know alot of side onshore guys will think sideshore is NIRVANA - alot of energy to tap into etc etc - but when your also used to fraction side off , side off , and offsideoff - then sideshore is still limited in lighter windstrengths , especially if its very very sideshore - you have to be extremely proactive to develop speed
I also love the stubby as the wider tail / rail line sets the rail in these roundhouse carves REALLY NICE ... the straighter rail line drives through the carve quite hard - where a narrower tail / tapered rail will 'pivot' a bit more - which can lose drive .... Ive watched some good guys sailing the mamba - incl the promo vids at hookipa , and for me .... it looked a little unconvincing in turns , almost the best of both bad worlds ....and ive watched some POV footage with a good sailor on the mamba - and I just didn't like the way it drove through the turns . There's something special imo the way you can set up a turn on a stubby , its like the nose will drive Around an imaginary arc - and the nose kin of stays at tail height (more horizontal plane say ) , where a mamba might - drive the nose downwards more .... Im not explaining the sensation very good - but Ive had INSANE turns on thew stubby , setting turns very square to the lip on entry .... I also like how on the stubby , you can move the cluster fractionally more together , by pulling the fronts back a bit - and suddenly you can do these radical 'tail pop release turns ' .... which helps to liven things up in pretty boring low power sideshore conditions ... AND , lets mention also that more stubby drive = more power to push your bottom turns more vertical ...
I like alot of Bouke's views ... some though I disagree with totally - and the stubby / wide tailed vanguard outlines is one of them . Adam Lewis and Victor were doing some of the best turns EVER on stubby , and there's footage of Adam Lewis using the 82 at gnarloo and doing some amazing Jaeger stone like turns - huge fantails of spray - and that was full power side off conditions ... so the stubbys have alot of range ....
Thruster/quad - what sort of period swell sideshore do you get ? .... beach breaks or reef ?
Beach breaks, swell period 11-15.
Stubby not too flat rocker for steep waves?
