Hi Foilers,
I need your opinions and feedback !!!
I started wingfoiling at the beginning of the year on a Naish Hover Ultra 6'6 x 33' of 140 liters for my 105kg and 1m89 and after more than 6 months I fly in both directions, go upwind without worries and start learning to Jibe.
I mainly sail on Lakes which quickly become Bumpy when the wind blows hard.
I am starting to look at changing boards to something less bulky and cumbersome in order to continue my progression quietly while having fun.
In your opinion, what type of board and what dimensions / volume should I go for to continue to progress smoothly, which remains accessible to my size and level and which can accompany me for a long time ???
An important point, with my +/-110kg I want a "bulletproof" construction !!!
Bullet proof doesnt exsist, but the fact that your Naish is still in one piece says to me that you take care of your gear.In my book they are among the more feagile gear.Next step would imo be a 105l Midlength like the KT SuperK < Naish Hybrid if you are a Naish Fan, Fone Midlength etc.A less wide board gives more control and more agile feel.
This:
sunovasurfboards.com/en/legends/casey/aviator-downwind-22-5
or this if you think that's too big of a jump:
sunovasurfboards.com/en/legends/casey/aviator-downwind-25
With Sunova you can actually request it to be built in the bulletproof layup!
^^^ agreed
wood over carbon is good.
if you want strong, no full carbon rubbed back things.
Carbon innegra deck if anyone is doing it
If you want strong and light then these are right up there! The 6'1 would make a great step down board from what you have been riding www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/p/the-egg
Thank you very much for your answers !!!
I have the impression that I have 2 "options" to go for, either a "traditional" shape like "small big" or a more "fashionable" shape like Mid Length.
What scares me with the "Mid Length" shapes is their very very reduced width (often less than 23') knowing that my current board is 33' wide and that on the Lake the wind often forms a short swell ....
So I thought I would go down gently and try to find a board ideally between 26th and 28' wide or -5' to -7'.
I'm looking at what's being done and I've seen several models that might suit me:
- Tabou Rocket Team 6'5 x 28.7 x 126 liters
- JP X-Winger Pro 6'1 x 28' x 122 liters
- Jimmy Lewis Flying V2 6'3 x 29' x 124 liters
- Kalama E3 5'10 x 28'8 x 123 liters
- Armstrong FG 5'11 x 26'25 x 120 liters
Then there's the Smik Slab V3 that I could possibly have custom made, I have 2 custom SUPs that I'm pretty happy with.
What do you think would be the "ideal" dimensions for me to reduce the volume and width without too much hassle ???
I had in mind dimensions of around 6'1 to 6'3 x 27'/28' and 120 to 125 liters ....
I just gotta address some preconceptions about board width. I'm an average foiler - not one of those naturals with amazing balance that can gybe after a few sessions etc etc. I'm an average bloke, 2 seasons in & trying to consistently nail my gybes. I fall a lot & consequently restart a lot. I fall when on foil not when the board is in the water.
I have been riding 20" boards for the last 9 months or so. I went from a 5'4" 95L short fat board to a 115L 7'x20" & then to a 8"4' X 20" dw board. After the first 20 minutes I didn't find them tippy at all. After your second session I doubt it'd even register that they're tippier. Once you have wind in your wing you are moving forward, like it or not, & you miss out that awkward stage where the wide short board wallows around with you balancing on all axis's.
Those boards you are looking at are massively wide. The benefits of a narrower board & easier takeoffs during the learning stages are always shadowed by the fears that they're tippy. The amount of energy you will save restarting will extend the length of your sessions. Try a narrow board for a couple of sessions even if you have to rent one.
Agreed.
I don't want to pressure anyone into narrow but if you can try it do it. I basically consider 20" to be the only length I'll ride ever again. I've ridden 20" over 100l and down to 60l in light winds and in insanity conditions. I've ridden as skinny as 18 which I didn't care for but not because it was tippy, it just turned unfavorably for me.
The Kalama you listed, the 5'10"x28.8" is what I learned on. I dropped down to a short 26" after that and it was miserable. Went to a long 21" after that and loved it. Tried a short 22.5" next and it was okay. Now all my boards are customs from Sunova. 5'9"-5'11" at 20" wide and 65-85l depending on my goal for the day.
Thanks Mrcrosurfer and BWalnut !!!!
Can you give me your height and weight so I can see the dimensions of the boards you mentioned ?
It's a board that I want exclusively to practice Wingfoil so I want it "short", I don't want a Downwind model of 7' or more, I would say maximum 6'6 .....
For you on "narrow" boards, should you compensate with a slightly larger volume than with a "small and wide" board??
For an intermediate level, we generally recommend either weight at your weight + 10 in volume, would it be the same thing for a mid length??
I generally have ridden neutral volume boards but the ones I recommended for ya are closer to neutral for you, not me. I'm at 86kg.
I think what people learn is that the foil mast provides the stabilization they need for side to side, while the length provides the fore aft stability.
I did a crazy amount of winging on an 8'x21" 111l barracuda. I learned a ton on that board. Now though, I prefer to be just shy of 6' for my style of riding.
Some big guys will take the carver:
sunovasurfboards.com/en/legends/casey/carver
and get it in a custom size to add more liters. The 5'10"x20" 85l is my main board now with a custom 77l and 65l on the way.
I'm same size as Bwalnut 85-6kgs. I made my own boards. 7x20" 115L(ish) & 8'4" 120L (ish). Once again I'll speak from my perspective & try not to get into an evangelistic rant- (yeah I probably will so feel free to tell me to pull my head in at any stage) I don't bother about volume anymore. Well, OK, maybe I do but I'll come to that later.
Disclaimer - I've never ridden a small board so happy to be put right by those more experienced. My pet peeve with the 95L 5'4" x 26" wide Fanatic skywing I spent a lot of money on was that the nose was constantly under water while taxiing. It would pop up again but I knew there was a better board out there for me. I was in the water starting a lot so the cumulative energy getting started wore me out after about an hour or so. As soon as I rode my 7' board with more volume I was in love with it. With the 7' DW board ( I named it that then as I naively thought it would be ok to use as one), as soon as my wing had wind in it I was rocketing along. The nose, built with little rocker, would occasionally be under water but slice through like the bow of a yacht or a torpedo. Starting became a breeze, it would carve better than the skywing & it's narrow rails & chines meant I was touching the sides less on waves.
So then I discovered that a 7' board is not for learning how to DW so I built a 8'4" 120L DW board over winter. Now here's the thing, I can't stop winging the DW board. It is so nice to ride. Only if it's really windy do I go back to my 7ft board as it's heavier & doesn't get blown around as much. For me, my argument is it's not about the length it's about the foil track placement. My 7' had less room in front of my front foot than my 5'4". When you're on a longer board the real estate is taken up with the back lawn.
Longer boards if built with a bit of thought can be more balanced than shorter boards. I liken it to a trapeze artists pole, the balance point is mitigated by the length of the pole. That is pretty academic though as I find when I'm up foiling I'm riding the foil not the board. I'm not good enough to "feel the foil" through my feet. I'm just a cruiser happy to flag out occasionally down a rolling swell.
Starting out on a longer board is different. As above once there is wind in the wing you're moving forward & the longer waterline means you'll usually be running with the direction of chop which is the worst part of a long board. You learn though to go with it, outrun the chop & once on foil swing up wind. I don't bother taxiing on my knees, I just stand straight up & go kinda like up hauling a windsurfer but the wings already up & active. I went foiling the other day with a guy on an old school Naish board, a guy up to his thighs starting on a sinker & myself on my long board - we all had different styles of starting but end of the day we were all just doing the same thing- mowing the lawn.
The other downside of my 8'4" board is it slaps its' arse on the peaks of bigger waves when going upwind. It's not a problem going downwind. Also getting through the beachbreak over rocks is slightly more annoying.
OK so you know how I said above I don't care about volume - well I'm just finishing another board which is 6'6" & 100L. I built it as i felt pressured to have a more conventional "mid length' board. To get the volume in the 6'6" board you want you will either have to go wide or deep. I've talked about the width aspect but depth is quite topical. I've read a few things about losing the feel of the foil, reaction delay & corkiness. Having the volume extended out over the 8'4 board means that I don't sit high above the water which may be some deem as tippiness.
I could be wrong but is your aversion to length more about being the big kid with the big board? When I arrived at the local spot with my 7' everyone looked at it like it was satans' own chariot. Now since the proliferation of DWing videos people are slowly becoming more accepting of longer boards.
Like Bwalnut I don't think I'd ever go back to a wider than 20' board- well maybe in 5 years time when fashions change again & retro fat & short is chic.
I'm in my second season just a bit ahead of you, having a ton of fun but still feeling the struggle. I've had 3 "2nd boards" now, and I'll say that you are right to be cautious about stability...you will adjust to smaller/narrower boards, and you will have to just get used to chop (and eventually seek out those bumps to ride), but it can prolong the struggle...here are a few of my observations:
1. the longer narrower thing has real benefits, especially easy board speed and less work getting up...makes a huge difference for me in time on foil and how much energy it takes each session and the range of conditions I can get up in
2. it really helps me to have a board I can comfortably straddle like a surfer waiting in the line up...very stable position and a base for rodeo starts...for me 20-22" wide is great for me, and allows me to bring my feet up on the deck and push onto my knees from straddling without tweaking my hips (but I'm skinny)...again rodeo starts in big chop are a plus
3. Try boards if you can...since dimensions make a big difference, but so does hull shape...my Appleskipper DW is both under 20" wide and has a very rounded hull, and it is super tippy and took my a really long time to adjust to. Lots of extra suffering I really didn't need...I recently got on a 24" wide board and was very relieved by the extra stability, even though it was a bit wide for quickly getting to my knees from straddling and was less efficient getting onto foil (trade-offs is what it is about).
4. For durability, I really like Appletree, as they seem to have figured out how to use XPS foam and do it well...XPS is stiff and waterproof...so no water intrusion if you get dings and has a super solid feel riding. That said, I came close to ordering a Sunova, as they have some really compelling options (but what do I know...I'm a kook).
So I'd say you are right to get a smaller board (but still a floater), and a narrower board, and you have a ton of room to do that given your current board dimensions. You will adjust, it's just a matter of how long it takes and how much suffering is involved, which is all particular to you and your situation...
Thanks guys for your feedback!!!
I'm not against "big" boards but my practice is 100% Wingfoil and the Lake where I practice is quickly very Bumpy because a short swell forms with the wind and in view of what you tell me a 7' or ++ board will really have no interest.
My goal is really to find "THE" board or the "TYPE" of shape that can continue to make me progress quietly, without having to struggle for several sessions to question everything to get used to it, I don't want the trendy board of the moment but the one that will be the most adapted to my size and level and that will continue to give me pleasure.
And that this board, in addition to continuing to make me progress, can accompany me for a little while without feeling the need in 6 months to have to change boards as is the case with my very first board.
I am 1m89 and +/-110kg, a beginner who is quite skilled (I fly in both directions and go upwind without any problem and am learning to jibe), I sail on fairly bumpy lakes (short swell) and I currently have the Naish of 6'6 x 33' and 140 liters on which I am very comfortable.
So given what I'm looking for, I think that my future board I should put the sliders:
- Volume: 110 (my weight) < X < 125 (my weight + 15)
- Length: 5'10 (for small big) < X < 6'6 (for large narrow)
- Width: 23' (for large narrow) < X < 28' (for small big)
Afterwards I think that the dimensions go hand in hand, that is to say that a narrow board will often be more voluminous and long than a short and wide board.
The goal is really to have a "different" board that accompanies my progression, I don't see myself changing to take a 6'2 x 30' of 130 liters, there would be no (or very little) interest.
There are a lot of wingers who say they made better progress on jibes after switching to smaller boards. But there are also quite a few who say it's better to stay on a larger board until most of your jibes are clean, or at least dry. I switched to a smaller board while learning the jibe, and it set me back several months (yes, I'm a slow leaner). I eventually went back to my larger board and made progress again. The big difference was that when something went wrong in the jibe, I was often able to stay on the larger board, while on a smaller board, I'd usually crash. Starting again takes time and energy, so I'd get more tries in on the larger board, and have more fun. A friend who is also struggling to learn the jibe had a similar experience - switching to a narrow DW style board did not work at all for her, and she's always on her old wider, more stable board now. Even my wife, who's at the opposite end of the learning spectrum (clean jibes and foot switches in about 10 sessions), learned on a +50 l board.
So whatever new board you buy, keep the big board. If you find yourself falling a lot in jibes, try switching back to the old board and see if that helps.
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
Thanks guys for your feedback!!!
I'm not against "big" boards but my practice is 100% Wingfoil and the Lake where I practice is quickly very Bumpy because a short swell forms with the wind and in view of what you tell me a 7' or ++ board will really have no interest.
My goal is really to find "THE" board or the "TYPE" of shape that can continue to make me progress quietly, without having to struggle for several sessions to question everything to get used to it, I don't want the trendy board of the moment but the one that will be the most adapted to my size and level and that will continue to give me pleasure.
And that this board, in addition to continuing to make me progress, can accompany me for a little while without feeling the need in 6 months to have to change boards as is the case with my very first board.
I am 1m89 and +/-110kg, a beginner who is quite skilled (I fly in both directions and go upwind without any problem and am learning to jibe), I sail on fairly bumpy lakes (short swell) and I currently have the Naish of 6'6 x 33' and 140 liters on which I am very comfortable.
So given what I'm looking for, I think that my future board I should put the sliders:
- Volume: 110 (my weight) < X < 125 (my weight + 15)
- Length: 5'10 (for small big) < X < 6'6 (for large narrow)
- Width: 23' (for large narrow) < X < 28' (for small big)
Afterwards I think that the dimensions go hand in hand, that is to say that a narrow board will often be more voluminous and long than a short and wide board.
The goal is really to have a "different" board that accompanies my progression, I don't see myself changing to take a 6'2 x 30' of 130 liters, there would be no (or very little) interest.
I think those sliders make a lot of sense...and in your position, trying before buying would likely help a ton (wish I had that option, but I have no even remotely local shops, or other foilers in my area)...
Thanks Boardsurfr !!!
What I would like to avoid is skipping steps and ultimately slowing down my progress or reducing the pleasure I currently have, so making a "transition" to a "medium" board (26' to 28' wide) does not necessarily seem like a bad idea to me....and you confirm this with your feedback.
For board tests, unfortunately where I live is a "surf" region and shops specializing in Wingfoil are very, very rare... And I can tell you that finding test boards in the sizes I'm aiming for is almost mission impossible .... These would always be a way to ask other guys to test their boards but I don't really like borrowing equipment, I'm always afraid of having bad luck and damaging them...
If I were you I would look hard at the ppc link board. 24 x 6'4" @ 120 liters seems perfect for you. Not too wide, but it's a more efficient shape. Tracks are closer to the middle so you will have less swing weight issues, and the board will have less length in the front, a little more in the back (this will ultimately be better for short chop).
this board is in the same length range as half the boards you are looking at, still kind of wide at 24" for stability but I think it will get going a lot quicker than those in the 26-30" range. Heard good things about ppc, and this being their Dw inspired shape makes me think it will be efficient getting on plane.
your won't be fully committed to the "narrow" trend but you also won't be tied to the "outdated" wide board wing design.
not sponsored by them and also haven't tried them, just have a local friend who loves em.
I had seen this PPC Link 6'4 unfortunately here in Europe (France) it is impossible to find....
I think you also have to know yourself too. I have poor balance, and learn sports in particular quite slowly, and with poor technique along the way. It's who I am!
I went from a 30" wide board to a 26" board and it was light years better, easy to make that move. Wish I'd made the transition sooner, as the big board totally held back my learning. Im now on a 22" board which I love, and the transition from 26" was also quite easy. But could I have gone from 30" to 22" directly? I don't think so, especially with where I was on my initial wide board. Maybe with enough length and volume to help, but not sure. I look forward to stepping down to 20" though, at least as a test 85kg, 44 yo. 120l naish crossover -> 105l f one rocket -> 95l Kalama e3.
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
Thanks guys for your feedback!!!
I'm not against "big" boards but my practice is 100% Wingfoil and the Lake where I practice is quickly very Bumpy because a short swell forms with the wind and in view of what you tell me a 7' or ++ board will really have no interest.
My goal is really to find "THE" board or the "TYPE" of shape that can continue to make me progress quietly, without having to struggle for several sessions to question everything to get used to it, I don't want the trendy board of the moment but the one that will be the most adapted to my size and level and that will continue to give me pleasure.
And that this board, in addition to continuing to make me progress, can accompany me for a little while without feeling the need in 6 months to have to change boards as is the case with my very first board.
I am 1m89 and +/-110kg, a beginner who is quite skilled (I fly in both directions and go upwind without any problem and am learning to jibe), I sail on fairly bumpy lakes (short swell) and I currently have the Naish of 6'6 x 33' and 140 liters on which I am very comfortable.
So given what I'm looking for, I think that my future board I should put the sliders:
- Volume: 110 (my weight) < X < 125 (my weight + 15)
- Length: 5'10 (for small big) < X < 6'6 (for large narrow)
- Width: 23' (for large narrow) < X < 28' (for small big)
Afterwards I think that the dimensions go hand in hand, that is to say that a narrow board will often be more voluminous and long than a short and wide board.
The goal is really to have a "different" board that accompanies my progression, I don't see myself changing to take a 6'2 x 30' of 130 liters, there would be no (or very little) interest.
I am the same size, experience,and conditions. Cabrinha Swift. I really like it.
Lots of good advice in the thread. I strongly agree with the people recommending to go narrow right away. Definitely don't step down to a middle width. It needs to be narrow enough to really feel the benefit. Normally I would say 20 inches max, but if you want 100l plus volume you likely need to do 21 or 22. If your local spot is choppy there actually is benefit to go negative volume. When the board is under the surface it is a lot less affected by sea state. Transition is a bit bigger though if you're used to taxiing around waiting for wind. With he smaller board you need to sit and wait and only go for it when you have enough wind to get up. Ultimately the volume is a bit of a personal choice. The "right" choice could be 90% volume for one rider and 110% for another.
The last thing I want in a board is something short and thick.
Going longer, thinner and narrower just works much better.
I have poor balance and found going to a 20" board no big problem even in chop.
Select to expand quoteCTFoiling said..
I think you also have to know yourself too. I have poor balance, and learn sports in particular quite slowly, and with poor technique along the way. It's who I am!
I went from a 30" wide board to a 26" board and it was light years better, easy to make that move. Wish I'd made the transition sooner, as the big board totally held back my learning. Im now on a 22" board which I love, and the transition from 26" was also quite easy. But could I have gone from 30" to 22" directly? I don't think so, especially with where I was on my initial wide board. Maybe with enough length and volume to help, but not sure. I look forward to stepping down to 20" though, at least as a test 85kg, 44 yo. 120l naish crossover -> 105l f one rocket -> 95l Kalama e3.
I saw the Kalama E3 in 6'5 x 23'5 and 116 liters which could be or would seem to be a model of large / narrow more or less adapted to my research.
If you can give me your opinion on these Kalama E3, are they (the Kalama E3) compatible with the Axis foils??
Select to expand quoteFatben said..CTFoiling said..
I think you also have to know yourself too. I have poor balance, and learn sports in particular quite slowly, and with poor technique along the way. It's who I am!
I went from a 30" wide board to a 26" board and it was light years better, easy to make that move. Wish I'd made the transition sooner, as the big board totally held back my learning. Im now on a 22" board which I love, and the transition from 26" was also quite easy. But could I have gone from 30" to 22" directly? I don't think so, especially with where I was on my initial wide board. Maybe with enough length and volume to help, but not sure. I look forward to stepping down to 20" though, at least as a test 85kg, 44 yo. 120l naish crossover -> 105l f one rocket -> 95l Kalama e3.
I saw the Kalama E3 in 6'5 x 23'5 and 116 liters which could be or would seem to be a model of large / narrow more or less adapted to my research.
If you can give me your opinion on these Kalama E3, are they (the Kalama E3) compatible with the Axis foils??
So, one concern with that board and I can't confirm this myself is that the Kalamas were revolutionary when released but I don't think they've been updated to match the mid length revolution discoveries. I've heard the boxes on those big Kalamas were too far back for wingers, so be cautious with that selection and try to find other people who wing it to confirm box compatibility with your brand.
I use the 95l e3 (5'9 x 22") exclusively for winging and totally love it. I'm on axis, works great, I'm pretty much right in the middle of the tracks. I think BWalnut is probably right, they are precursors to the current mid length models and a little wider/shorter than maybe ideal. I'm planning to build a 6'4" x 20" board this winter to try to test that theory.
Select to expand quoteCTFoiling said..
I use the 95l e3 (5'9 x 22") exclusively for winging and totally love it. I'm on axis, works great, I'm pretty much right in the middle of the tracks. I think BWalnut is probably right, they are precursors to the current mid length models and a little wider/shorter than maybe ideal. I'm planning to build a 6'4" x 20" board this winter to try to test that theory.
I used the shorter one, the 83l e3 5'3"x22.5" and it was fine too. However, when I compared it to my 5'10"x20" 85l it was night and day. The 20" was WAY better at takeoff and WAY better in the air. Crazy.
The advantage with the Kalama E3, for me, coming from a "big" board of 6'6 x 33' and 140 liters is that by taking the 6'5 x 23'1/2 model of 116 liters it would not be "extreme" in difference of width while keeping a little length, compared to the Duotone Skybrid (6' x 23'1/2 and 115 liters) or to the F-One mid lenght (6'2 x 22' and 120 liters).
The only doubt on this E3 in 6'5 x 23'1/2 of 116 liters would be the volume, for 110kg would it be enough or should we keep a positive margin (+5, +10, +15 +20) on this type of shape ???
I prefer length over volume and I think that is becoming the general consensus for the midlengths in winging.
Select to expand quoteFatben said..
The only doubt on this E3 in 6'5 x 23'1/2 of 116 liters would be the volume, for 110kg would it be enough or should we keep a positive margin (+5, +10, +15 +20) on this type of shape ???
It really depends on how the wind is at your spot, and what your preferences are. At our local spot, the wind drops almost every session, often too low to get going again. Unless you foil through all of your jibes, slogging for extended periods is part of winging. It can be quite unpleasant when the chop from the stronger wind sticks around for a while, but the wind is so light that you actively hold up the wing .. unless you can sit on the board and go downwind to get back to the launch. Volume makes a lot of difference there, and the narrower boards have the added bonus of being easier to sit on, and getting you back faster.
But preferences also matter. There are some expert level wingers who don't mind sitting on a tiny board even if getting back home is sometimes rather tedious. But being experts, they don't have to deal with that nearly as often as I do, since they can simply stay on the foil even if the wind drops to a point where they could not get foiling again.
100% agree, volume matters significantly if your spot requires slogging or paddling as a baseline. I have a little over 1/4 mile paddle to get to wind, and thanks to islands, the wind often is erratic. A board with negative volume would just make my life exponentially harder, not better. Not all of us live in hood river or Maui!
Ok, on the Lake where I sail, in general the wind is relatively constant, it happens sometimes (especially on Light Wind sessions) that it drops but until now it has rarely happened to me.
If I were to go for a Mid Length, in terms of length I would like to stay on something between 6'4 and 6'6 knowing that I am 1m89.
For the volume with my +/-110kg I would not aim for less than 110 liters, that's for sure!!!
Now on this type of shape I don't really realize the influence of 5, 10, 15 or 20 liters extra compared to its weight.
