I'd like to make one of my next yachts a class 5 sized yacht and thought it would be great if myself and others were able to access plans for some of the fixed design landyachts through this forum the same as the pacific magic. Some of the yachts I'd like to see are the Promo, Fed-5, Club-88 and Standard before making a decision. Has anyone got plans for these yachts
Ian, I have just emailed you a Promo 5 pdf file and 4 photos of the one Paul Day built for his wife. I think that is what he recommends as a step up from an LLF Mini.
It is also what he raced at Patagonia. The Fed 5 may have been superceeded by the Promo and the "Standart" is made by Seagull yachts in France. I don't know if you can get plans to build one and I believe the yachts cost about $10,000 to buy.
Somebody claims to have the import and/or building rights in Australia for the Standart so there might be copyright issues.
If you want to go to that high a level of performance have a look at the "Beast of Bermingham" (Aus230). There is a spectacular shot of it standing vertical on it's front wheel in the photos section.
The original Paul Day "Pacific Magic" plans are downloadable from this site under News/Articles and hillsy has posted a build thread for his.
The "Club 88" I believe is copyrighted to the Sandgropers. Bazl is probably the man to speak with on that one. Cheers Cisco
Select to expand quote
fed 5 is a class 5 promo is a different class
I reckon if you did it properly you could have a Fed 5 running in Promo without too many problems. The Fed 5 plans are available from the BFSLYC (British Federation of Sand and LandYacht Clubs)
You can race promo's, club 88's and Fed 5's in class 5 races. None will really be in the top yachts at a high class international level but here in Aus at a club level you may well be surprised.
If you want to race in Sandgropers internal club 88 races obviously you need a club 88. They do have other races apart from club 88 ones Bazl is the man to ask about the Sandropers.
In Australia Fed 5 never really took off - this is not a comment on the yacht - just people mosty went other ways. I beleive you can still purchase? Fed 5 plans.
Promo can be sailed in a class 5 race but was designed to make class 5 affordable again on the international field and are raced as a seperate class - hence restrictions on materials etc (wheel barrow sized wheels to name one).
Stardarts are completely different - They are a very successful one designed manufactured yacht from Seagull in France. They are bigger than a 5 and can use materials that 5's can't. They are a beautiful yacht to sail but one that needs a good space.
Due t the financial investment in a yacht like this I would not see many people willing to sail on Lake Walyungup in Safety Bay due to the *rocks* that kick up from the lake surface down there. Can you imagine what that would do the yacht...ughhh. So if you wanted to purchase one you would need to have a good sized venue to sail on.
All of the above are class 5's,none fit into the PROMO class, but the club88 would fit into the "spirit" or intention of a PROMO.
It all gets too confusing, which is why I do all my experiments in minis.
you could simply up your length and width, slight change to steering set up, youve got a good seat mold, so your 90% there.
If I had known about the FED 5 project at the time UK and NZ were doing it I would have embraced it wholeheartedly, but they forgot to tell us at Lake Lefroy.
The Fed 5 , I believe is a better design than my PM, and would be a good project for anybody building a 5.
there was a thread a little while back for Landsailor magazine being back online, I think that would be the place to go looking for FED 5 plans the Seagull dealer for Australia is Pheonix landsailing in QLD, David Webster has a avatar on this site
Bazl , I have a copy of the sandgropers Club 88 plans, Has the clubs paper keeping got sloppy, Do you need me to take a copy, and send to you.
I also have a complete set of FED 5 plans ,and instructions, but not permission to build,, perhaps you could contact the poms and get permission and I could send a copy on .
All the yachts , when sailed on 400x8 rims are about equal, the OTT style yachts when attached to 24 or 26" rims ,are a jump up in performance and speed .
Drop me a PM, I will search out the Fed 5 plans which Mike Hampton gave me years ago.
Drop me a PM I will dig out the paper version of the Fed 5 plans which Mike Hampton gave me years back. I think the update is to get them into the computer age.
Landyacht
Have already done so-
Thank you for your message. We will respond as soon as possible.
Regards,
BFSLYC
www.bfslyc.org.uk
At this stage I'm waiting (they responded quickly and I'm hoping it continues)
Promo girl said "Stardarts are completely different - They are a very successful one designed manufactured yacht from Seagull in France. They are bigger than a 5"
Thank you Susan this helps me delete one option.
Ian
When I decided to build AUS230, There was some concern raised that yott were to costly to build. Maybe in europe where they use carbon fiber for seat and wheels this would apply (same would probly apply if you built other class5 using the same
materials) but my yacht cost around $1500 to build including sail , sure I had to do all the work myself (I had to learn as I went, I am or was an underground miner) I learnt how to make a mold from the web. I made the wheels myself.
WHat I am trying to say is if I can build what I think is a nice yacht so can anyone who is willing to give it a try.
Cheers
AUS230
Hi Suzan
You mentioned that the standarts would get damaged at Lake Walyungup, this was the one thing that worried me about sailing there but I was suprised I did not get a single stone chip there for the seasion maybe because of the narrow front wheel.
Cheers
AUS230
Ian said <Promo girl-would it be fair to say you would recommend a Promo as a good fixed design and with a bit of promotion be a good Australia wide class to race?>
Yes and No Ian - racing promo can be fun as the yachts are closely controlled in material use which helps level the playing field however I doubt in Aus we will get to this place in the near future- too many people want to do their own thing. Which is fine lots of people want to build and experiment.
If your interest is at the international level then promo class is a good one to get into if you do not have big $
My promo yacht is not quite in the same league as Vic's beautiful yacht but probably close to a club 88.
Having said all this are you sailing to race or sailing for fun? what other class 5s are near you and what expertise or skills do you have - you have some yacht building experaince already? I think answering these questions first will help you work out what is best for you.
sorry no simple answer
cheers Susan
Ian, re Promo class.
If you read the FISLY rules on these you will see they are not a fixed design. More like a "small wheel 5 with other restrictions".
If you really study the rule you will find it very difficult to understand and especially to truly comply with. Check out the material specifications where the use of the word MUST is very confusing. From an english readers' point you MUST use (from memory) 63mm tube. Later you will find that it says that any variation from the tube size.... Now to my simple mind if says MUST, you can't have a variation??
Also says that you MUST use polyester battens. I have checked with ALL of the major commercial producers of sail battens, they have all said they don't use polyester. Therefore you could make some of your own, turn up to an event and protest the whole field! That would be stupid, but it seems to me a great concept, let down by poorly written rules. I suspect they were originally framed to include the Seagull Promo, and written in French, then translated to english, and never really checked by an english speaker.
FWIW if you do a search on Seagull Quebec you should find the full plans for the yacht. Jean phillippe has released these plans for free copying. For a Prom type you could do a lot worse! If I find the link again I will include in this post.Here you are charsavoile.com/ligue/plans/pp-seagull.htm
Susan said "Having said all this are you sailing to race or sailing for fun?"
Years ago teaching Dan to sail I warned him that learning in a club situation and later sailing with me would make it difficult to 'just go for a social sail' and he would always be looking for a degree of performance. Years later he's still racing on and off and agrees that I was correct. So basically the answer to your question is 'racing for fun' and ultimately compete at a state or national level if landyachting reaches the numbers in distinct classes needed for events like this to happen-thus I'm trying to get an idea of the most likely class that will have the numbers
PS regards blokarts, with remarks from some blokarter's along the lines of "I go blokarting not landyachting" and a couple of other elitist comments, I have chosen not to pursue this avenue for this and other reasons.
My Club 88 is overdue for a spruce up. Thought I might take a few before and after pics, probably should post the after pics but just a couple for those who might be interested in the basic design.
The last one is just to illustrate how the stub axle is designed, a shaft through two collars.
the main chassis pipes are exhaust tube , hence the need for great masses of bracing to stop it all bending. the yachts were suppoed to look like susans PROMO but the seel supplier diddled us on the steel, then instead of throwing the original chassis away and starting again , the guys just starting adding "stuff" till it stopped bending
17kg is actually lighter than i would have thought from the pics.
Although weight is of consideration in land yacht construction plus or minus a few kg's I dont think matters to much.(without going over the top)
Regardless of the yachts weight, the main weight factor is still the pilot and this then leads to the condition and type of bearings used.
A test I have never seen done yet is to load up with a set weight (say 80-100kg's) and then measure the rolling resistance of a yacht with different types of bearings and then different tyre pressures.
With the tyre pressures though it does depend on surfaces, what works well on salt might not work well on sand.
This sort of discussion is a favourite of mine!
I believe through experience that the tyre construction has a massive effect on landyacht performance. ie not only the size and pressure.
Way back there was a UK class 3 landyachter who was planing his brand new Michelin 115 size tyres when a neighbour by the name of Barry Sheene, the motorcycle rider came by and asked why. Getting the "normal" answer he offered some slicks from hi GP bike which were the same size for $0. Of course they were snatched up. Next regatta our man turned up with these on a set of rims. Race 1 he used the old Michelins, and as usual was dominant. Next race on went the race tyres, and he was lapped by the others, back went the Michelins and he won. This continued for the weekend, but the race bike tyres were never used again.
When I had my Glen in the UK we had a lot of problems with blow outs through over stretching tyres (Michelin 2 1/4 x17, planed), so I used motorcycle rather than moped tubes. No blowouts and "good" results (1st Fylde International). The others used the same size Kendas and I could always beat them. In the Euro champs Sharon was using my yacht, was "attacked" by a number of the other girls and next race I had a puncture just before the last turn. I sailed back on 2 wheels for a 5th place. We then put on Kendas, Sharon was dead last. I used the yacht next race and came round the first time in 54th, so "pit stopped" changed to Michelins and got back to an 8th. Now I know that there are people who don't believe, but I do. Straight line drag is an issue, but what the yacht does when it gets hit by a gust is sidways drag as it scrubs off. I reckon the soft sidewall absorbs this rather than scrubbing, result = more forward speed. It's my theory and I am sticking to it!
A question about the different tyres kiwi307 what was the ply rating of each and was there much weight difference between them?
Many years ago i built a micro yacht the "Rickshaw" it used 20" bike wheels, the original yacht used medium knobbly tyres and thick thorn proof tubes although it went well, it went much better with standard tubes and VERY much better with standard tyres and tubes . From this I have come to the conclusion a lot to do with a yachts acceleration is how easy / hard it is to get the wheels up and spinning.
I do some occasional work for a tyre wharehouse and have noticed that car race tyres are VERY light in weight compared to road tyres of the same size and profile. I have spoken to the technical guys from this company and they say there is some way to calculate the acceleration and force required to get them going. BUT they haven't told me how ...YET !!!
In the case of the class 3 I know that the 115-380 Michelin potato picker tyres (thats the machine they are made for) are very supple in the sidewall, like the 125 Citroen 2cv tyre. The bike tyre I don't know the ply rating, but you can imagine what a flexi sidewall tyre would be like on a race bike, and it would not be pretty! I do know that there was no perceptable difference in the weight (being a race bike they carry no excesses)
In the case of my class 5, exactly the same ratings everywhere. Load, plies, sizes, speed rating. Just the way they felt. The Michelin had much more sidewall flex.
This is also why I know (in my own mind without doubt) that some of the conclusions reached in regard class 5 26" tyres being absolutely better than 19" may be erroneous. The downhill mountain bike tyre is made to absorb some of the ground irregularities, so is a "perfect" tyre for landyachts. The 19" which was being compared we know nothing about. I believed in this so much that I was importing 100 Michelin tyres at a time in the "good old days" and passing them on at cost. When I stopped the others here would get anything they could, so the "science" may not be that sound.
the other thing to keep in mind is the word Michelin! wheni first got " VINDICATOR" There were 2 sets of tyres. the 15" michelins from a 2CV and a set of tyres from a drag car . special layed up 200mph tyres. Oooooooooooh you would think.
But no The special Racing tyres would top at 100kph. the michelins would feel like they were expanding between 64and 84kph then smooth out and cruise up into the 130's . the front tyre is a 2.50x8 4ply ribbed MICHELIN wheelbarrow tyre. I dont think any other wheelbarrow tyre in the world would be up to those speeds. The rubber in Michelins is very porous and have to be washed 2-3times after a few days sailing due to the salt weeping out.
The americans have a tyre brand called windbell that is similar
