110k > 100k Indian Ocean Drive

From European studies and about 5 mins of googling...
Tell me again how dropping 10kph at 100+ is the answer to the problem...


>90% change of serious injury or death from only 35mph - 100% serious injury from only 40mph.


Its even worse for side impact... 100% fatal at a mere 40mph (64kph)


And these aren't highway speeds...

For that we have some 5th gear tests...
(Potential trigger warning for first responders)
Time points don't seem to work so you'll have to watch them all...

?t=184

?t=60

?t=318

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Gunna1 said..
Hilly, courteousy goes both ways. Just as is discourteous to tailgate, abuse other drivers and overtake in an unsafe way, it is equally uncourteous to sit 20-30kms under the posted speed limit and see how many angry drivers you can bank up behind you!

You guys don't get it.
It is not UNCOURTEOUS to be under the speed limit for whatever reason. I drive moving forward (and paying attention that what is front of me), the boofs who are behind me have to slow down. Simple as that. What if you are in a panel van with no rear or lateral windows, limited to no visibility in your rear view mirror? Shall I look ahead where I am going or keep alert for the speed demons who might be just behind me?

What happens if its a prime mover, loaded to the max, just about to go into an incline, lost the momentum just prior the incline and then have to chug along the whole section of the incline ahead at 10km/h maximum because of its mechanical limitation / safety reasons?
Is he being uncourteous to you?

WA drivers don't see the scenario I described above because its a boring flat terrain state, with almost non existent mountain passes or hills.

So how would you HERO WA driver behave in the situation above when you go drive in your holidays lets say in Europe, US,NZ, or any other locations where that is common occurrence? You would just get on to it and behave like the other courteous drivers?

Again if you find yourself behind a slow vehicle, just wait your turn and pass where its safe and legal to do so.

LEAVE EARLIER to avoid traffic (been slow or normal traffic).

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novetti said..

Gunna1 said..
Hilly, courteousy goes both ways. Just as is discourteous to tailgate, abuse other drivers and overtake in an unsafe way, it is equally uncourteous to sit 20-30kms under the posted speed limit and see how many angry drivers you can bank up behind you!

You guys don't get it.
It is not UNCOURTEOUS to be under the speed limit for whatever reason. I drive moving forward (and paying attention that what is front of me), the boofs who are behind me have to slow down. Simple as that. What if you are in a panel van with no rear or lateral windows, limited to no visibility in your rear view mirror? Shall I look ahead where I am going or keep alert for the speed demons who might be just behind me?

What happens if its a prime mover, loaded to the max, just about to go into an incline, lost the momentum just prior the incline and then have to chug along the whole section of the incline ahead at 10km/h maximum because of its mechanical limitation / safety reasons?
Is he being uncourteous to you?

WA drivers don't see the scenario I described above because its a boring flat terrain state, with almost non existent mountain passes or hills.

So how would you HERO WA driver behave in the situation above when you go drive in your holidays lets say in Europe, US,NZ, or any other locations where that is common occurrence? You would just get on to it and behave like the other courteous drivers?

Again if you find yourself behind a slow vehicle, just wait your turn and pass where its safe and legal to do so.

LEAVE EARLIER to avoid traffic (been slow or normal traffic).

What you do see in Europe is slow drivers pulling over to let others by. Imagine that in WA. Um no I cannot

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eppo said..

hilly said..
I have a dream!!! Where everyone drives at the speed limit and is courteous to others.


Then I woke up in WA - land of the inept driver

Drive at the speed limit. Now there's a fckn good idea.

ps I live in Mandurah, the land of the totally inept drivers in the land of the inept drivers.

Got some great Mandurah stories. Just the other day a wood duck tried to get me to pull over and fight him because I had the audacity to do 40 Kph in a roadwork zone.
how dare you do the speed limit in front of my high powered purple flat bed Ute.

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MDSXR6T said..
Leave earlier and then get stuck behind another dickhead who doesn't have the desire to drive at the speed limit??

-if you've just spent 90k on your flash new wobbly or boat then you can afford the extra $10 in fuel each day doing 100km/h instead of 80km/h. It's dangerous.
-if your not confident driving at the speed limit then you shouldn't be driving. 110km/h is not that challenging.
-if your car or truck cant do 100km/h then its hardly road worthy. If your car can't do that, imagine the 20y/o tyres, brakes and suspension...
-if you feel that every other driver around you is an idiot, chances are its you.

And I forgot the following:

-People on Tow should be forbidden to be over 80 or 90 km/h at any time if towing anything (YES that is how the Europeans do). Only morons think they are in full control of their huge Hilux in towing mode and doing 110km/h just because is the road is rated to MAX 110km/h.
I was once a passenger in a Hilux towing a trailer that flipped in the freeway in Perth a few years ago. Luckily nothing serious happened.

-not confident of been 110km/h ? What part of being MY CHOICE to be under the speed limit you don't understand?
Its personal choice, driving to conditions and common sense, nothing to do with drivers abilities or confidence.

I have been over 130km/h, 180km/h in Germany many times without problems, a lot less idiots there, multiple lanes and slower moving vehicles keeping to their lanes without dramas to the faster moving ones. We don't have autobahn here? Too bad. Drive to the conditions to place offers to you (been in WA, Sydney, Jakarta, London, middle of nowhere).

-What part of not all vehicles when fully loaded to their maximum load can't sustain the MAXIMUM speed limit of the route they are in certain circumstances you don't understand?
Nothing illegal there and they can be spanking new, nothing to do if aged or worn equipment.

-Yes slower vehicles can move to the shoulder to allow others passing but ONLY when IS SAFE TO DO SO. Not all roads in WA have wide shoulders to allow that to happen safely. Police here is also not that smart as I heard people got fined when doing that from Cops with nothing better to do (probably speed demon cops with smaller brains and lack of common sense).

-YES WA Drivers are complete IDIOTS until proven otherwise...me included and probably you too.

I know you can find evidence for both sides but this is interesting www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

Novetti pretty sure you have to be able to see out the back of your vehicle by law.

I actually believe it is a good move to drop the limit just to take the pressure off the slower cars that use IOD because it is a tourist road. I just wish they would stick to 100. At the end of the day if you want to go further and faster use the Brand.

When heading north I leave at 3 or 4am to avoid most of the traffic before Gero, after Northampton it is easier to pass the touros and nomads.

The bit on IOD that I hate is the narrow bit close to the ocean past leeman.

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Chris6791 said..

rod_bunny said..

Chris6791 said..


Dropping ten km/hr might not reduce the number of crashes, but if someone is going a little bit slower it will make a massive difference to the severity of any crash that does happen. Thank Christ I don't live there anymore, I've been to enough of the bad ones, plus almost all the responders that go to these things are volunteers, I reckon they've had enough too. So chill on the slightly lower speed limit, it will only add a few minutes.

It doesn't add just a few minutes. That's part of the problem! You're stuck behind someone doing 80 in a 110 and you cant pass and you know you're not gonna not be able to pass for the next hour! Don't say it doesn't happen because I have been in that exact situation. In a troopy with boat I need a straight section of about 10km to make the pass. I don't make the pass because I know I cant, but I can see the frustration that would drive someone to do make the pass when they probably shouldn't. (I also don't sit right up their arse to make a road train so that no one else can pass either)

"Prior to the road going through the original road would cary maybe a couple of hundred car movements on a busy day, now it's expected to carry many, many thousands per day on peak weekends. If it was straightened and widened to the standard of the new section through Nambung NP it would be a dream run,"

^ Exactly this - it was entirely foreseeable that the old section would have to deal with a significant increase in traffic due it all being joined up.
So what was done to the old section prior to opening the new section? Nothing! This being entirely my point... The Govt pushes this speed kills mantra yet doesn't do everything in its power to reduce the fatalities - dropping by 10 is tinkering around the edges of a larger problem - that almost every post on here points to, dickhead drivers

Dropping the speed by 10 will make next to no difference to the survivability outcome of a crash at highways speeds.
I'll wager the "only a few minutes" in percentage terms you'd save is the same as the few milliseconds longer you would live by crashing at 100 vs 110.

Dropping ten will make a difference to the severity of a crash, it comes down to the physics which I can't be bothered to explain.

On your argument, dropping the limit to 100 won't actually make a difference to how long it takes to get to Lano because you're probably getting stuck behind some twat towing a trailer, boat, caravan doing 80-90 with fark all opportunities to overtake.

It was foreseeable the old road will end up carrying heaps more cars, what they failed to do, and its a basic human flaw, is they underestimated the ability of the average driver to drive with common sense and courtesy. Never underestimate stupid.

They will eventually have to spend a hundred million or more totally redoing that road but it won't happen this generation, so in the mean time, work with what we've got.

"Dropping ten will make a difference to the severity of a crash, it comes down to the physics which I can't be bothered to explain."

"Dropping 10", "drop 5 to stay alive" are only relevant in relatively low speed crashes.
Its a simple mantra like "Speed Kills", sure it is catchy, but not strictly true.

The physics of the crash itself (ie 1 thing hitting something else), I agree with you. But check the graphs... its not a linear curve for crash survivability.

Dropping 5 or 10 at 30-60 makes a huge difference for crash survivability, pretty much anything beyond that and the human body just cannot cope with the deceleration forces of itself within itself let alone any trauma from other objects impacting the body.

I'll try another analogy for the "Its simple physics" team...

Would you rather be shot in the face with:
a) .44 magnum (110km)
or
b) .22lr (90kmh)

The difference in energy being transmitted to the body between the 2 is massive - but both are arguably gonna be fatal.

"But I don't want to get shot in the face" I hear you cry?

So, how about we get rid of the guns? Then we are waaaaay less likely to be shot. (ie Ensure that dickhead drivers are removed from the roads)


Do we legislate to cover the lowest denominator (eg BB guns for everyone / 50kph) OR actually deal with the real problem?

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novetti said..

hilly said..
I know you can find evidence for both sides but this is interesting www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html

Novetti pretty sure you have to be able to see out the back of your vehicle by law.

I actually believe it is a good move to drop the limit just to take the pressure off the slower cars that use IOD because it is a tourist road. I just wish they would stick to 100. At the end of the day if you want to go further and faster use the Brand.

When heading north I leave at 3 or 4am to avoid most of the traffic before Gero, after Northampton it is easier to pass the touros and nomads.

The bit on IOD that I hate is the narrow bit close to the ocean past leeman.

Mate,

It is obviously advised to have rear view all the times possible. But a bus driver from Transperth for example can't see a thing through inside, only via the mirrors (and they are big on those buses) but still very limited.
Do guys driving semis, a car carrier etc see anything behind him? UNLIKELY. And that is perfectly the norm (legal) and its fine.

Same for AUS POST delivery vans, Star Tracks, etc etc when the back windows are painted, and they are loaded with boxes inside.

Trucks used to have those stickers (if you can't see my mirrors I can't see you), however obviously in very long vehicles their effectiveness is very reduced.

Don't you have big ass mirrors on the outside if you have a van?

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Buster fin said..
Any zero heros here? Few, would be my guess.

I'm an ex truckie who used to cart awfully nasty chems, radio-actives, explosive stuff and super fragile medical machinery all over the country.

A couple of problems were picked up in a medical - which were sorted out, but to keep the family happy I busted myself down to a regular car license by having my truck, dangerous goods, explosives and oversize-overmass pilot tickets torn up.

Now working in West Leederville chauffeuring fragile people all around Perth Metro, well over 45000km racked up in West Leederville - Subi - Wembley area alone in the last 3 years.

Yep - lots of numpties on the road with overloaded, un-roadworthy, poorly maintained or just plain tired vehicles who should know better, and probably do. "she'll be right" can be a recipe for disaster with vehicles.

Anything towing has a 100km limit, but fuel consumption for vehicles towing goes through the roof at over 80klicks, and often the driver just doesn't have enough experience or confidence for towing.
You can also pretty much guarantee any caravan or boat towing combination is overloaded, but rarely see them on roadside scales.
Weight distribution and brake set up is often patchy too, which doesn't help when they need to hit the brakes.
A poorly handling tow combination also increases driver fatigue at a horrendous rate.

Our trucks were only allowed on Indian Ocean Drive if the delivery destination was on the road itself, and the boss only allocated 6 tonners to that route as they could do the full limit, as anything bigger was governed to 100 klicks.
At times, the boss would even go as far as splitting an 8 tonne load between two 6 tonner trucks.

No easy fix to our road problems - lots of education [re sit driving test every few years??]
Mandatory medicals from a neutral party doctor - not your tame G.P.??
Proper [mandatory] training for towing trailers, caravans and boats over a set weight [anything being towed that requires brakes??]
and yep - a bit more thought with road upgrades and a lot more overtaking lanes wouldn't go astray.

When I drove up there Saturday I timed the distance between the 55km and 50 km signs to Lanno, the theoretical time it will take a half an hour to arrive at the speeds of 110 and 100. It took 4 mins.

I live 120km from Lanno, and at the varying speed limits in the first half, add another 4 as an estimate. Freeway extension saves at least that, so the time is around the same, pre -extension

The thing I noticed there and back, was I did not catch anything, both ways. I guess, most traffic was going along at a similar speed. Good tunes and a bit slower was stress free.

Rod_bunny, perhaps you've forgotten about stopping distance.



Dropping the speed limit by 10 km/h reduces the stopping distance by around 15 metres (on dry tarmac), which is the difference between a 50 km/h head on, and stopping before you hit the other guy. Massive difference in survivability.

Why's everyone in such a hurry? Someone (maybe on this forum) commented that they got the ****s with people who take corners too slowly, as in right turns at traffic lights or side roads. That attitude annoys the crap out of me. Have people like that never driven their injured/stitched up dog to or from the vet? Or a human somewhere after surgery? Or a heap of food to a party/bbq/whatever? Flat out around corners isn't always a good option. Pe

As for IOD, it's a nice drive out of peak caravan/school holiday season. I use it knowing I'll have slow times behind traffic. Or I don't use it and know I'll be spending half the trip passing trucks. Could be a LOT worse. People need to chill out, wind down the window or something.

I agree Twimby and isn't the new road upgrade near Ledge Point is fantastic...!

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ThinkaBowtit said..
Why's everyone in such a hurry? Someone (maybe on this forum) commented that they got the ****s with people who take corners too slowly, as in right turns at traffic lights or side roads. That attitude annoys the crap out of me. Have people like that never driven their injured/stitched up dog to or from the vet? Or a human somewhere after surgery? Or a heap of food to a party/bbq/whatever? Flat out around corners isn't always a good option. Pe

As for IOD, it's a nice drive out of peak caravan/school holiday season. I use it knowing I'll have slow times behind traffic. Or I don't use it and know I'll be spending half the trip passing trucks. Could be a LOT worse. People need to chill out, wind down the window or something.

Agreed.

No wonder driving in WA is a mess if in just a WATERSPORTS based forum there are good lot who are demonstrating they get soo stressful if they are behind anyone doing anything less than the MAX of the speed limit, that pushes them over the edge! In a coastal scenic drive

Makes sense when we (WA) are also known as the world capital of the Flying Vehicle vs. House/Fence battles.