Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Electric Catamaran

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Created by Macroscien > 9 months ago, 4 Nov 2012
Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 4:37PM
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I just bought yesterday a Hydra 16 Catamaran to perform my experiments.
I would like to convert it to solar powered vessel for family flat water cruising.

My experiment will be to establish what will be maximum speed when powered by:

a) electric outboard motor 1,152 Watts 86 Lbs 24 V - that I purchased already

b) Suzuki outboard 4 stroke 6 HP -planing to buy one this week

I assume that catamaran will be carrying two people weight - 150 kg, and all rigging removed (mast) just hulls.
I am not sure if I still need rudders or could just use motor to steer the boat.

I wonder is somebody want to guess or know already what max speed will be achievable in a) and b).
I should know all results in week or two.





Next question if catamaran hulls powered by 6HP motor will be faster and more efficient then small dingy ( some may say that small boats could get planning with as small motor as 3 HP ?? )

d1
WA, 304 posts
4 Nov 2012 3:16PM
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Macro, can you provide more data, e.g. total area, nominal output power, efficiency and thermal derating of the solar panels? Are you going to implement a heliostat to track the sun, and how? If not, what orientation do you propose for the panels? Also, are you familiar with the safety aspects of working with DC, fairly high current, potentially in salt water?

To match the 6HP motor for speed, you'll need about 22 standard-sized high-efficiency (200W) solar panels and a very different electric motor.

Your 24V motor is approximately 1/4 the power of the 4-stroke.

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
4 Nov 2012 3:44PM
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My guess is, for the 1152 watt electric motor you will get about 2 or 3 knots out of it.
For the 6hp petrol motor (about 4500 watts) you will get about 6 to 8 knots.

Be aware that for the electric motor to run at the full 1152 watts for just one hour on 24 volt battery, you will need a battery with at least a 50 amp hour capacity,. when it's new. This will progressively de-rate with age.

As for solar panels, you will need 6 x 200 watt panels to produce the same power provided that it is in the middle of the day and the sun is shining and nobodys shadow is over any of the panels.

In practical terms, I think you will be able to use just one or two panels to charge up the battery and the main power will have to be provided by the battery. I don't think you have room on a smal cat for that.

All up, as far as energy density goes, the petrol outboard is far and away the best prospect, but they are noisy little effers.

Electric motors are only good for fishing where you are just slowly trolling along at maybe less than one knot and using about 200 watts. For this they are ok. Nice and quiet and you get about an hour out of a small 10 amp hour battery. (24 volt)

I find it hard to imagine that a boat of any size could plane with a 3hp motor. (about 1500 watts)
I think we worked it out a while back that it takes about 5hp and more to get a windsurfer planing.

Post up the results when you get it all going. I'm interested to see how it goes.

gibberjoe
SA, 956 posts
4 Nov 2012 6:23PM
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rowing use a version of this ffor regattas, they have no problems keeping up with

singles or eights, recon you will get what u want good for crabbing too

southace
SA, 4773 posts
4 Nov 2012 6:26PM
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I would highly not recommend buying a 4 stroke 6 hp.... The best outboard is the tohatsu 5 hp single cylinder. The four strokes are much heavier,louder and expensive.

myusernam
QLD, 6120 posts
4 Nov 2012 6:47PM
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hahahahah u are going to learn fast that electricly powering boats sucks the big one.
Your motor will draw 50A at full throttle. that's some expensive batteries and chargers right there. not to mention that batteries only good for 200 or so cycles, cabling, solar inverter, panels etc etc.

or you could by a cheap as piss second hand two stroke 4 to 9hp that will run all day for a few litres of petrol. if you plan was to use the panels as a roof for shade, they will be heavy, unweildy and make the boat dangerous. far better with a vinil bimini.

Also this has been done everywhere on the internet, with real world examples of how much it sucks.

i will offer some constructive advice that you wont need rudders.


Simondo
VIC, 8020 posts
4 Nov 2012 8:02PM
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Remember, Cats don't plane, they cut.
So perhaps the references to planing aren't overly relevant.

Macro, good luck. Obviously you won't want to venture too far with Solar/Electric only. I can already 'smell' a potential stranding... no power left...!

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
4 Nov 2012 7:45PM
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There's a whole lot of reasons a 10ft tinnie + 6hp (or 12/8 etc) is such a common small boat combo. Cheap, reliable, does everything well. Your cat is designed to be a sailboat and won't be wonderful as runabout - too heavy, doesn't turn well, etc

Also I know english isn't your first language so just for your info some might be confused by you using 'planing' and 'planning' backwards. Planing is what a boat does.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 7:50PM
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1.At this moment I have plenty of LiFePO4 batterries in 24 36 and 48 V in 10 and 20 AH that I could use for my test. Leftover form my EV experiments .But all batteries will eventually get dry faster that I could expect - that from my electric bike that never did expected range.
That is why I want to use solar panel to recharge in the same time.

2. Solar panels. There is a problem. As standard panels are already reasonable cheap, but heavy and may not withstand constant salt water splashing.
I think about 1 to max 2 kw solar.
My total available area is limited by boat dimensions: that is 5.0 meters long and 2.4 m wide. But my friend that has also Hydra 16 extended that width actually to 4.0 m.
Since I need to tow on the trailer - maybe some sort of collapsible extenders ??

Because of the weight of traditional solar panels I may need to use flexible panels but at this moment there are 5 x more expensive

3. As a booster and backup I want to use for electric version petrol generator 1-2 kw. But because of the safety I don't want to use standard generator 240 V then convert down to 24 V. I want to use all DC 24V generator only and although not available at this moment anywhere I managed to find manufacturer and would try to import directly. Should arrive in next 3 month.

4. Petrol outboard. For test I want to use simple outboard as is easy available, reasonable cheap and should be reliable. I have been considering 2 stroke first, but for two reasons I decided for 4 stroke
- easier to start up - at least with my power tools experience so far
- cleaner fumes
- I thinks that 6 HP is actually max I could use without the need for registration to I think Suzuki 6 HP or Honda 5 HP (?) I need to decide quick and buy one this week.



landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
4 Nov 2012 5:54PM
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southace said...
I would highly not recommend buying a 4 stroke 6 hp.... The best outboard is the tohatsu 5 hp single cylinder. The four strokes are much heavier,louder and expensive.


my tohatsu 5hp is a rattly noisy bloomin thing, I tried a 2.5honda,much queiter,smoother and pushed just as well

southace
SA, 4773 posts
4 Nov 2012 8:30PM
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I get 17knts with my 5 tohatsu and new RIB inflate able with the ally v bottom.

theDoctor
NSW, 5780 posts
4 Nov 2012 9:33PM
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crazy idea, why not put a mast and sail on the catamaran....?

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 8:56PM
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theDoctor said...


crazy idea, why not put a mast and sail on the catamaran....?

Well, I have been sailing cat for years. Hobbie 16 .
Time to try something new...I never had powered boat...

advantage for such powered boat is easy to navigate our complex Gold Coast channels..
the interesting question will be the speed - which could indicate the range of daily family trip.
I will be extremaly happy if I could reach Brisbane and go back - approx 200 km in one day on my finished boat.
I wonder is 200km range is realistic for electric powered DIY cat.

BTW I love my Hobbie too much to violate it and convert into powered boat
so I did purchased Hydra...

da vecta
QLD, 2512 posts
4 Nov 2012 9:57PM
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Sounds like you purchased hydro.

d1
WA, 304 posts
4 Nov 2012 8:22PM
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Look Makro, here are some calculations, and I'm afraid you won't like them

For your 2 kW solar system, you'll need an area of about 10 m2 (assuming 1 kW solar power per m2 at noon and 20% panel efficiency).

However, that's the system's peak output. Average insolation levels in Qld will give you 4.2 kWh of daily energy per 1 kW of system output :
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1549668

That's for an arangement which is not heliostatic, but not horizontal either (i.e. the panels are fixed at a reasonable northern aspect and don't track the sun). For your boat, the most feasible arrangement may be fixed flat horizontal panels, but let's assume you manage to implement a rudimentary tilting mechanism, and achieve the same capacity levels as a fixed rooftop installation...

So, you'll get 8.4 kWh of energy out of a 2 kW system on an average day.

The energy contained in 1 litre of petrol is the equivalent of 9 kWh: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

So, with your 2 kW solar system over 1 day, you will be lucky to get as far as with 1 litre of petrol. Actually you may just get about as far, due to some efficiency advantages of the electric route, but certainly not much further...

You'll need plenty of batteries...

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 11:02PM
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d1 said...
Look Makro, here are some calculations, and I'm afraid you won't like them

For your 2 kW solar system, you'll need an area of about 10 m2 (assuming 1 kW solar power per m2 at noon and 20% panel efficiency).

However, that's the system's peak output. Average insolation levels in Qld will give you 4.2 kWh of daily energy per 1 kW of system output :
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1549668

That's for an arangement which is not heliostatic, but not horizontal either (i.e. the panels are fixed at a reasonable northern aspect and don't track the sun). For your boat, the most feasible arrangement may be fixed flat horizontal panels, but let's assume you manage to implement a rudimentary tilting mechanism, and achieve the same capacity levels as a fixed rooftop installation...

So, you'll get 8.4 kWh of energy out of a 2 kW system on an average day.

The energy contained in 1 litre of petrol is the equivalent of 9 kWh: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_per_gallon_gasoline_equivalent

So, with your 2 kW solar system over 1 day, you will be lucky to get as far as with 1 litre of petrol. Actually you may just get about as far, due to some efficiency advantages of the electric route, but certainly not much further...

You'll need plenty of batteries...


Well, I think you calculations are quite accurate. The max I could expect from 2kw panel will be 8.4 KWh which means that my electric outboard could work 7 hours full throttle ( @ 1150 Watts),
The question remains how many km I could do in 1 hour We should know the answer in a week max two.
I need to organize registration now for my trailer to go on the road to the nearest beach.
I suspect that I need to replace bearings (?) before try to obtain registration but I am not sure ...

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 11:14PM
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d1 said...

You'll need plenty of batteries...


My standard electric bike LiFePO4 battery 24 V 10 Ah = 240 Watt/hours
which mean that standard electric bike battery last for only 15 minutes electric outboard
My biggest LiFePO4 batteries are 48V 20 Ah -which in perfect conditions should supply power for 1 hour. I have three so it should be enough for 3 extra hours, just have to find a DC to DC converter 48 to 24V



Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 11:28PM
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kiteboy dave said...
There's a whole lot of reasons a 10ft tinnie + 6hp (or 12/8 etc) is such a common small boat combo. Cheap, reliable, does everything well. Your cat is designed to be a sailboat and won't be wonderful as runabout - too heavy, doesn't turn well, etc

Also I know english isn't your first language so just for your info some might be confused by you using 'planing' and 'planning' backwards. Planing is what a boat does.



This will be very interesting to find out what is the most efficient at lower motor power.
Small tinnie that could plane with 6 Hp engine or small cat with 1.1 Kw electric motor.
I am sort of green geek and that will be interesting to find out which one needs less energy to travel over 100 km distance.

smicko
WA, 2503 posts
4 Nov 2012 9:36PM
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I reckon you'll make Fiji and back no probs, give it a crack.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
4 Nov 2012 11:41PM
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kiteboy dave said...
There's a whole lot of reasons a 10ft tinnie + 6hp (or 12/8 etc) is such a common small boat combo. Cheap, reliable, does everything well.

Just one more question to experienced person;.
I am going to buy 6 HP Suzuki outboard .
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271091572440?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1500wt_1164
I found few offers on eBay.
2011 motor which is ok and some come with bonus inflatable 3.4m for extra few hundreds,
If this inflatable is as efficient as alu tinnie ?

cisco
QLD, 12323 posts
5 Nov 2012 1:46AM
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Put 15 horses on it and forget economy. You want to get somewhere don't you??

When you get sick of that farce, buy a 3.5 m tinnie or inflatable and put the 15 horses on the back of it.

One boat for sailing, another for motoring and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Why do you try to make something into something else that it can never be?

southace
SA, 4773 posts
5 Nov 2012 2:51AM
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landyacht said...
southace said...
I would highly not recommend buying a 4 stroke 6 hp.... The best outboard is the tohatsu 5 hp single cylinder. The four strokes are much heavier,louder and expensive.


my tohatsu 5hp is a rattly noisy bloomin thing, I tried a 2.5honda,much queiter,smoother and pushed just as well


I think by adding the weight of an outboard 6hp 4 stroke 28kg / 5 hp single cylinder 19kg , plus the weight of battery's and electric motor is going to turn your boat into a lemon. Maybe just stick with electric and a small light outboard just to get you home if need be.

southace
SA, 4773 posts
5 Nov 2012 2:55AM
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southace said...
I get 17knts with my 5 tohatsu and new RIB inflate able with the ally v bottom.



Landyacht how old is your tohatsu mine is 6 months old and purs like a kitty. I can hear them 4 strokes a mile always sounding like someone mowing the lawns.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
5 Nov 2012 11:45AM
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Macroscien said...
Next question if catamaran hulls powered by 6HP motor will be faster and more efficient then small dingy ( some may say that small boats could get planning with as small motor as 3 HP ?? )


Er, definitely not.

You'll get a 10ft aluminium (< haha, nice try spell check) boat planing with 150kg in it, and a 6hp motor.
Guesstimate 20 knots top speed. Higher if you both sit on the transom.
Runaway Bay > Tipplers > Sanctuary Cove and back again = 10 litres of 25:1 fuel.

Source: I had a 12ft + 9.9 (stickers said 6) as a kid and was part of a flotilla of mainly 10ft + 6hp boats that did this every day.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "efficient". You could do that every day for the cost of the fuel, and sell at the end of a year for minimal, if any, financial loss. I don't think you could say the same about the converted catamaran and its parts.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
5 Nov 2012 9:23AM
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Macroscien said...
theDoctor said...


crazy idea, why not put a mast and sail on the catamaran....?

Well, I have been sailing cat for years. Hobbie 16 .
Time to try something new...I never had powered boat...

advantage for such powered boat is easy to navigate our complex Gold Coast channels..
the interesting question will be the speed - which could indicate the range of daily family trip.
I will be extremaly happy if I could reach Brisbane and go back - approx 200 km in one day on my finished boat.
I wonder is 200km range is realistic for electric powered DIY cat.

BTW I love my Hobbie too much to violate it and convert into powered boat
so I did purchased Hydra...



Why not try a kite?

Mobydisc
NSW, 9029 posts
5 Nov 2012 12:32PM
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A 14 foot catarmaran propelled by a solar electric power system is going to be a nightmare to maintain. Its unlikely to be particularly seaworthy unless big dollars were spent. Plus such a system would weigh the cat down.

Perhaps as a prototype you can try it out in controlled conditions.

harry potter
VIC, 2777 posts
5 Nov 2012 12:35PM
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evlPanda said...
Macroscien said...
Next question if catamaran hulls powered by 6HP motor will be faster and more efficient then small dingy ( some may say that small boats could get planning with as small motor as 3 HP ?? )


Er, definitely not.




unless its one of these hulls





its a catamaran, its light weight, it has a reliable lightweight tohatsu, its economical ( not at full throttle though )

approx 13ft
more stable than a tinnie ( two adults can stand on one hull and the other wont leave the water )
lighter than a tinnie at 90kg
faster than a tinnie ( over 100kmh / 55knots ) if you want.
lightweight reliable proven 2 stroke Tohatsu motor.
draws less than 10cm at full noise
will plane at approx 10-15knots


second hand for less than $5000 ( may require some minor work )

more fun than you can poke a stick at



southace
SA, 4773 posts
5 Nov 2012 12:09PM
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I did once see the same type of cat with a bike attached to it with a shaft and propeller drive.
The guy was wearing a suit and tie with a brief case and was making his way across Sydney harbour! True story!

Skid
QLD, 1499 posts
5 Nov 2012 1:33PM
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Macroscien said...
kiteboy dave said...
There's a whole lot of reasons a 10ft tinnie + 6hp (or 12/8 etc) is such a common small boat combo. Cheap, reliable, does everything well. Your cat is designed to be a sailboat and won't be wonderful as runabout - too heavy, doesn't turn well, etc

Also I know english isn't your first language so just for your info some might be confused by you using 'planing' and 'planning' backwards. Planing is what a boat does.



This will be very interesting to find out what is the most efficient at lower motor power.
Small tinnie that could plane with 6 Hp engine or small cat with 1.1 Kw electric motor.
I am sort of green geek and that will be interesting to find out which one needs less energy to travel over 100 km distance.



The sail!
The sail will use less energy to travel. Also, it won't weigh half a tonne and doesn't mind a bit of salt water; batteries on the other hand....

kiteboy dave
QLD, 6525 posts
5 Nov 2012 1:55PM
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evlPanda said...
Source: I had a 12ft + 9.9 (stickers said 6) as a kid and was part of a flotilla of mainly 10ft + 6hp boats that did this every day.


I had a 10ft and an old 8 with a 6 sticker - only went as fast the new 6s that the rich kids had, so I never got busted for it.

Put all the weight in the back and jack it out.. womp womp womp <spray>>>>>>

longwinded
WA, 344 posts
5 Nov 2012 12:01PM
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harry potter said...
evlPanda said...
Macroscien said...
Next question if catamaran hulls powered by 6HP motor will be faster and more efficient then small dingy ( some may say that small boats could get planning with as small motor as 3 HP ?? )


Er, definitely not.




unless its one of these hulls





its a catamaran, its light weight, it has a reliable lightweight tohatsu, its economical ( not at full throttle though )

approx 13ft
more stable than a tinnie ( two adults can stand on one hull and the other wont leave the water )
lighter than a tinnie at 90kg
faster than a tinnie ( over 100kmh / 55knots ) if you want.
lightweight reliable proven 2 stroke Tohatsu motor.
draws less than 10cm at full noise
will plane at approx 10-15knots


second hand for less than $5000 ( may require some minor work )

more fun than you can poke a stick at






Engine cooling not a problem? Can see gearbox housing on outboard and the water intake is normally located above this. Obviously seaworthiness and safety don't figure either due to the sun protection the guy is wearing.



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"Electric Catamaran" started by Macroscien