Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Electric Catamaran

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Created by Macroscien > 9 months ago, 4 Nov 2012
Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
24 Nov 2012 10:14PM
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youngbull said...- If you are using 1300mah batts I would not imagine more than 5mins max.

Each battery consist of 16 such cells 1300mAh connected in parallel to that the required 20Ah, then such banks are connected in serial to get right voltage - 48 V.
They have more then enough power to run my electric motor 1.1Kw.
I think about two such motors - one for each hull eventually.


But I bought recently older DC motor from forklift !! 48V and 14kw !!!!
but motor weight 80 kg by itselft -what about battery for such monster ?
Maybe for bigger boat that my Hydra 16


each pack represend 24V 20Ah , times 4 should give me 24V 80Ah in total.
less then 20kg a lot.

boofta
NSW, 179 posts
25 Nov 2012 1:05AM
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Do be careful.
It even looks like a bomb!
Don't cut the red wire

d1
WA, 304 posts
25 Nov 2012 10:53AM
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Macroscien said...
Each battery consist of 16 such cells 1300mAh connected in parallel to that the required 20Ah, then such banks are connected in serial to get right voltage - 48 V.


16 cells connected in parallel without matching circuit (even if it's a simple resistor). That's probably borderline acceptable, if the cells are from the same batch and evenly matched. What's bad though, if one cell shorts, due to, typically, dendritic (crystalline) growth that punctures the dielectric separator membrane, it will short-circuit the rest of the bank. This is not an unlikely scenario.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
25 Nov 2012 5:29PM
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d1 said...
Macroscien said...
Each battery consist of 16 such cells 1300mAh connected in parallel to that the required 20Ah, then such banks are connected in serial to get right voltage - 48 V.


16 cells connected in parallel without matching circuit (even if it's a simple resistor). That's probably borderline acceptable, if the cells are from the same batch and evenly matched. What's bad though, if one cell shorts, due to, typically, dendritic (crystalline) growth that punctures the dielectric separator membrane, it will short-circuit the rest of the bank. This is not an unlikely scenario.


You are absolutely right, but I am afraid that this is how most of the batteries are made this time. That is why battery are still the weakest point in all electrical vehicles and expected life time or performance never will be met.
I see already degradation in some my battery cells and they hardly been ever used at all. Now because that all welded together will be difficult to find individual bed one.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
17 Dec 2012 12:14PM
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I did next trial with 6HP outboard motor at full speed.
Now I know that maximum speed on for this type of hull , with 2 persons on-board is
about 20-21 km/h.
Possibly some improvements in efficiency could be made by covering holes in the hull for dagger board.
Maybe also by extending that stern part of the hull by 1 -1.5 m and shaping into sharp pointing like a front the hull. Should minimize the drag.

www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1lEScYKY5wLPse_7sZtaExsMKS2w&msa=0

This week I should be able to attach electric motor for first trials.

busterwa
3777 posts
17 Dec 2012 10:25AM
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Make sure you pack a set of paddles for those night trips

youngbull
QLD, 825 posts
17 Dec 2012 12:58PM
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For memory if you round off the stern of the boat you will turn the hulls into a semi displacement hull instead of a planning hull and you will loose speed.

Same as the prop on your outboard - it needs a sharp trailing edge to reduce drag.
You would be quiet surprised how tinkering with the prop will better suit your application- not a heap but something.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
17 Dec 2012 1:07PM
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youngbull said...
For memory if you round off the stern of the boat you will turn the hulls into a semi displacement hull instead of a planning hull and you will loose speed.

Same as the prop on your outboard - it needs a sharp trailing edge to reduce drag.
You would be quiet surprised how tinkering with the prop will better suit your application- not a heap but something.


This catamaran design never could plane IMO with the motor so stay always displacement boat.
In fact I heard that standard propeller on my 6HP Suzuki may not be designed for higher speed and replacing it could further improve top speed.

I bought for comparison testing 3.6 inflatable boat.
In first test definitely with the same motor 6HP is going much slower at 1/2 throttle, creating hell a lot of wash, but when planning I am not sure, looks fast . Pity I forgot to take GPS to check the top speed.

Interesting question tough. From 2 dingies propelled by 6 HP motor which one will be faster > Aluminium one with hard hull or inflatable ?

Although maybe catamaran could be converted also to hydrofoil ?
Doesn't make sense for sailing boat but for motor powered why not?
I will start looking for suitable design to test this crazy idea

Let me know anybody that know how to do or get somewhere cheaply 4 hydrofoils . Two for each hull.[}:)]


southace
SA, 4773 posts
17 Dec 2012 1:52PM
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You could use the centre boards and turn them into hydrofoils quite easy attaching wings to each board but you would need to do the same to the rudders to lift the stern.

Also a alu v bottom will plane at 17knots with 60 kg onboard with 5 hp a flat bottom inflatable may cavaitate with the same set up.

youngbull
QLD, 825 posts
17 Dec 2012 5:11PM
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I would save your time on the hydrofoil. To much drag - good idea though.. Could see that working with a 15hp and up long shaft - now that would be fun.

Aluminum boat faster in smooth water with no wind.

Inflatable flat bottom, faster in small chop, smooth water with up to approx 20knots of wind.

myusernam
QLD, 6123 posts
17 Dec 2012 6:59PM
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When I read your posts the voice / image of you I have in my head is Manuel from faulty towers. Not even manuel could conceive such a rediculous contraption or waste so much money on it. Whatever gets u up in the morning tho..

T 11
TAS, 811 posts
24 Dec 2012 1:29AM
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Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
24 Jan 2013 11:41AM
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Mark _australia said...
19mm poly core with glass, particularly with polyester resin, will flex to bejeezus if is is that big. (or if it does not bend it will be damn heavy!!)

Firstly epoxy.

then think about a few laminates, not just core plus glass each side.



sorry , out of resin topic but what skeleton support do you Mark suggest for the poly core deck 2.4 x 6.0 ? Because whole lot will be enclosed in aluminium frame around I could obviously do supporting bars beneath every 1.0 m across and one long in the middle.
That will give 1.2 x 1.0
Is it worth to go for 25mm Polycore PP8H instead of 19mm?
I will use layers of DBIAS glass with epoxyy on each side.

Hardcarve1
QLD, 548 posts
24 Jan 2013 1:36PM
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I would recommend that you look at this site for some idea's.
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=39
I have been building electric bikes for a few years and can only say the batteries are the single most important issue you will need to get on top of. What is being achieved in high end electric bikes is just amazing and the speeds and distances make them a real alternative for transport, but thats another story.
The cell technology out at the moment is very good and can be had cheap. If you could you should look at some A123 20A/h pouch cells and build your project around them.
The cells will dictate a lot of the performance of the craft so you may as well stay within the parameters of them.
Good luck with the project.

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
24 Jan 2013 3:10PM
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Hardcarve1 said...
I would recommend that you look at this site for some idea's.
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=39
I have been building electric bikes for a few years and can only say the batteries are the single most important issue you will need to get on top of. What is being achieved in high end electric bikes is just amazing and the speeds and distances make them a real alternative for transport, but thats another story.
The cell technology out at the moment is very good and can be had cheap. If you could you should look at some A123 20A/h pouch cells and build your project around them.
The cells will dictate a lot of the performance of the craft so you may as well stay within the parameters of them.
Good luck with the project.

As you could see now whole Boeing Dream liner fleet is grounded , mostly due to the same Lithium battery problems.
So my problems with battery is not unique.

Right now I am on the process of building super light structure for my catamaran.
I gave up idea of constructing it from galvanized steel ( which I could weld easy myself) and will use aluminium instead plus super light but strong poly core sheets for deck and side walls.
I will not be able to weld aluminium to the standard required but I could cut and prepare material and get this welded at local engineering workshop at $70 per hour labor,.

Next phase will be finding proper electric motor. That one I am using now ( outboard trolling motor has relatively low power to mass ratio.
Much more appealing are motors available now for RC models with max power
www.ebay.com.au/itm/360529745072?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Thank you for the link to electric boat enthusiast !!

myusernam
QLD, 6123 posts
24 Jan 2013 4:35PM
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Macroscien said...
Hardcarve1 said...
I would recommend that you look at this site for some idea's.
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=39
I have been building electric bikes for a few years and can only say the batteries are the single most important issue you will need to get on top of. What is being achieved in high end electric bikes is just amazing and the speeds and distances make them a real alternative for transport, but thats another story.
The cell technology out at the moment is very good and can be had cheap. If you could you should look at some A123 20A/h pouch cells and build your project around them.
The cells will dictate a lot of the performance of the craft so you may as well stay within the parameters of them.
Good luck with the project.

As you could see now whole Boeing Dream liner fleet is grounded , mostly due to the same Lithium battery problems.
So my problems with battery is not unique.

Right now I am on the process of building super light structure for my catamaran.
I gave up idea of constructing it from galvanized steel ( which I could weld easy myself) and will use aluminium instead plus super light but strong poly core sheets for deck and side walls.
I will not be able to weld aluminium to the standard required but I could cut and prepare material and get this welded at local engineering workshop at $70 per hour labor,.

Next phase will be finding proper electric motor. That one I am using now ( outboard trolling motor has relatively low power to mass ratio.
Much more appealing are motors available now for RC models with max power
www.ebay.com.au/itm/360529745072?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Thank you for the link to electric boat enthusiast !!


mate this whole thread just breings back that adage about a fool and his money soon parted. and I will give you just a few reasons why.

Catamaran's are poor load carriers. Your hull base is a sports cat, designed to carry two adults of average build, the sail and not much else. it is a performance hull so was never designed to carry any sort of load - it's emphasis on performance.

batteries and electricity used for propulsion - you simply cannot get anywhere near the convenience or bang for your buck from petrol. If you search for electric outboards and electric powered boats you wont find many. That's because they suck. with our current technology you can't simply store enough energy and then use it efficiently enough to make electric propulsion from batteries with a small boat like yours. You will need so many batteries, so many panels that your boat will virtually be sinking (poor load carrying remember) not to mention the windage and weight up high the panels will create unstability. Salt water around that much battery power and solar is a hazard.

Finally the batteries wont last very long at all - probably a few hundered cycles, and then you will be up for more. also slat water is very harsh on all electrics. So you could have purchased a small petrol outboard that would outperform any battery system (because the bigger it gets the more weight it will be and perform worse)
and it would certainly be more enviromentally freindly when it comes to all the polution and resources it took to make those batteries which are not very enviromentally freindly at all.

also that trailer will only support the weight of a light cat, not all the stuff u plan to put on it.
seriously try floating that cat with some weight on it and see how it goes

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
24 Jan 2013 3:11PM
Thumbs Up

myusernam said...
Macroscien said...
Hardcarve1 said...
I would recommend that you look at this site for some idea's.
endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=39
I have been building electric bikes for a few years and can only say the batteries are the single most important issue you will need to get on top of. What is being achieved in high end electric bikes is just amazing and the speeds and distances make them a real alternative for transport, but thats another story.
The cell technology out at the moment is very good and can be had cheap. If you could you should look at some A123 20A/h pouch cells and build your project around them.
The cells will dictate a lot of the performance of the craft so you may as well stay within the parameters of them.
Good luck with the project.

As you could see now whole Boeing Dream liner fleet is grounded , mostly due to the same Lithium battery problems.
So my problems with battery is not unique.

Right now I am on the process of building super light structure for my catamaran.
I gave up idea of constructing it from galvanized steel ( which I could weld easy myself) and will use aluminium instead plus super light but strong poly core sheets for deck and side walls.
I will not be able to weld aluminium to the standard required but I could cut and prepare material and get this welded at local engineering workshop at $70 per hour labor,.

Next phase will be finding proper electric motor. That one I am using now ( outboard trolling motor has relatively low power to mass ratio.
Much more appealing are motors available now for RC models with max power
www.ebay.com.au/itm/360529745072?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

Thank you for the link to electric boat enthusiast !!


mate this whole thread just breings back that adage about a fool and his money soon parted. and I will give you just a few reasons why.

Catamaran's are poor load carriers. Your hull base is a sports cat, designed to carry two adults of average build, the sail and not much else. it is a performance hull so was never designed to carry any sort of load - it's emphasis on performance.

batteries and electricity used for propulsion - you simply cannot get anywhere near the convenience or bang for your buck from petrol. If you search for electric outboards and electric powered boats you wont find many. That's because they suck. with our current technology you can't simply store enough energy and then use it efficiently enough to make electric propulsion from batteries with a small boat like yours. You will need so many batteries, so many panels that your boat will virtually be sinking (poor load carrying remember) not to mention the windage and weight up high the panels will create unstability. Salt water around that much battery power and solar is a hazard.

Finally the batteries wont last very long at all - probably a few hundered cycles, and then you will be up for more. also slat water is very harsh on all electrics. So you could have purchased a small petrol outboard that would outperform any battery system (because the bigger it gets the more weight it will be and perform worse)
and it would certainly be more enviromentally freindly when it comes to all the polution and resources it took to make those batteries which are not very enviromentally freindly at all.

also that trailer will only support the weight of a light cat, not all the stuff u plan to put on it.
seriously try floating that cat with some weight on it and see how it goes



With a bit of luck he will record the launch and post it in here, tbh I cant wait

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
24 Jan 2013 3:18PM
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myusernam said...


Catamaran's are poor load carriers. Your hull base is a sports cat, designed to carry two adults of average build, the sail and not much else. it is a performance hull so was never designed to carry any sort of load - it's emphasis on performance.


But they are designed to do it all on one hull, two adults, the rig and the windward hull all on the leeward hull. The rig and the windward hull add up to at least 1 person. When the windward hull is flying high there's also a bit of sail lift going down as well. So should be OK loaded with the equivalent of 7 people when straight and level.

pweedas
WA, 4642 posts
24 Jan 2013 3:42PM
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Next phase will be finding proper electric motor. That one I am using now ( outboard trolling motor has relatively low power to mass ratio.
Much more appealing are motors available now for RC models with max power
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/360529745072?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l264



Hey macroman. Be careful with RC electrc motors.
They are not made for continual use. They usually have very limited heat disipation ability and can get very hot in about 10 to 20 minutes at high power.
This is mostly not a problem in model airplane or helis because the batteriy is flat in 10 minutes at high power settings, but runnung off your mega battery stack you will cook up the motor. You might need water cooling .
Also everything on them is lightweight, including the bearings, so long use will wear out the bearings fast.
They are made for a specific purpose and the use you intend is well outside of the purpose designed for.
I don't think they will make you happy.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
24 Jan 2013 6:00PM
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Ian K said...
myusernam said...


Catamaran's are poor load carriers. Your hull base is a sports cat, designed to carry two adults of average build, the sail and not much else. it is a performance hull so was never designed to carry any sort of load - it's emphasis on performance.


But they are designed to do it all on one hull, two adults, the rig and the windward hull all on the leeward hull. The rig and the windward hull add up to at least 1 person. When the windward hull is flying high there's also a bit of sail lift going down as well. So should be OK loaded with the equivalent of 7 people when straight and level.



yes but the sail is flying the hull and pushing down the nose through the mast.

with no (sail) leeward force it's a different story. i'd look at mounting the motor on the front beam

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
24 Jan 2013 6:41PM
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At this moment the main problem I have with outboard motor is terrible splash.
When mounted on the rear beam.
All incoming water is attacking that motor leg at high speed.
I did try my 6HP Suzuki and 18 HP Tohatsu.
On my dingy propeller sit just below hull and leg is protected , water level precisly as should be.
In catamaran propeller is at different depth all the time on our bumpy water.
That is why catamarans have usually propellers at each hull.
Maybe later I should use two electric motors instead of just one, or one sitting at the end of the very long straight shaft - like those used in exotic Thai boats.
another option could be addition of sharp pointing protector in the front of outboard leg to protect from incoming water.
Generally speaking ride on this converted catamaran is very comfortable on moderate bumpy water.
I did try same motors on my other inflatable 3.6 m boat.
For 6 HP dingy is almost useless because planning is possible only at very smooth water, So with small motor catamaran wins hands down.
With bigger both boats go easy above 30 km/h , but unless the splashing problem is not resolved the ride on catamaran is not fun at all

Macroscien
QLD, 6806 posts
24 Jan 2013 6:47PM
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Ian K said...
myusernam said...


Catamaran's are poor load carriers. Your hull base is a sports cat, designed to carry two adults of average build, the sail and not much else. it is a performance hull so was never designed to carry any sort of load - it's emphasis on performance.


But they are designed to do it all on one hull, two adults, the rig and the windward hull all on the leeward hull. The rig and the windward hull add up to at least 1 person. When the windward hull is flying high there's also a bit of sail lift going down as well. So should be OK loaded with the equivalent of 7 people when straight and level.


According to my rough calculations bouncy of this two hull should be around 700-900 kg.
boat 120 Kg, outboard 25-40 kg, petrol tank 15 kg,

So there is enough to get 4 people on board The only problem that due to the shape there is very little at the rear where the motor and skipper is located.
As we can see on the photo most is at the centre.
On one occasion I had almost 150-200 liters of waters in one hull !!
Water level was exactly at top of that hull at the rear end.

Center boards holes are completely fibre glassed right now.

saltiest1
NSW, 2495 posts
27 Jan 2013 12:23AM
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theDoctor said...


what would work is a pressure differential device

where by a higher pressure is captured by the craft and creates an opposing lower pressure that draws upon the higher pressure in an effort to create equilibrium and hence moves the entire craft forward...









or....... a sail.



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Electric Catamaran" started by Macroscien