Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

Kronic will be banned

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Created by felixdcat > 9 months ago, 17 Jun 2011
poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
20 Jun 2011 6:43PM
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My only argument against legalising all drugs is how will society cope?
As a society we can barely handle the effects of Alcohol, let alone numerous other substances.

chronic
NSW, 318 posts
20 Jun 2011 9:00PM
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Sailhack said...

Wanna hear something funny...I had to google 'Kronic', never heard of it until this thread started!

Waaay back, when I was a teen, a work colleague (apprentice) and a few others decided to try boiling up (insert exotic flower name) and eating the petals, as it was growing in our local botanical garden. I turned up at his place the next day to get a lift to trade-school and he was still hallucinating!

2 of his mates ended up wandering the street that night with no pants on & getting locked up, whilst he swore that I had called in to have brekky with him that morning! He even remembered the conversation he had at brekky with me and his ex girlfriend's dad (who had passed away a couple of years before!)...totally trippin!

As for dangerous - I was too young to drive, so he drove the 2hrs to trade-school. he fell asleep 3 times on that journey & went onto the gravel, I had to grab the wheel and yell at him each time, he also drove into some peoples driveway that he thought he knew!



Daytura....

Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
20 Jun 2011 7:46PM
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poor relative said...

My only argument against legalising all drugs is how will society cope?
As a society we can barely handle the effects of Alcohol, let alone numerous other substances.


Egg Zachary

Regardless of legalisation, speed will still make people paranoid and violent and bash their missus or sit in the corner twitching and scratching themselves to bits. The amphetamine does that, not the impurities in the illegally manufactured stuff.

Heroin will still be addictive and make people sit around all day like dribbling morons and people will still commit crime to buy it. Even it is is cheap - servos and bottle-o shops get ram raided for smokes and booze. There would be an increase in that for sure.

We have enough health problems and fatal traffic crashes with p!ss, why the hell would we legalise drugs and just increase the issues?

The legalisation brigade are idealists who can't see what would really happen (have no common bloody sense) and IMHO mostly they are users who want to the Govt legitamise their behaviour for purely selfish reasons.

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
20 Jun 2011 7:56PM
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I disagree mark and I'm no user.

Leagalising drugs at last will enable us to see exactly who is using why they are using etc and enable us to gear health services properly.

not everyone who is addicted is a 'zombie' i knew a lawyer in a successful self made business who used heroin daily. He wanted to stop because he didnt like mixing with criminals and the law board would have frowned upon his activities should he have become a 'registered addict' There are many examples of people using drugs and maintaining 'lifestyles' Its naieve at best to think otherwise.

Legalising drugs isn't going to suddenly increase the rates of amphetamine induced wife beatings. Why would it. There is no evidence to suggest that following prohibition that people went berko and killed each other drinking.


Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
20 Jun 2011 8:10PM
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poor relative said...

I disagree mark and I'm no user.

Leagalising drugs at last will enable us to see exactly who is using why they are using etc and enable us to gear health services properly.

not everyone who is addicted is a 'zombie' i knew a lawyer in a successful self made business who used heroin daily. He wanted to stop because he didnt like mixing with criminals and the law board would have frowned upon his activities should he have become a 'registered addict' There are many examples of people using drugs and maintaining 'lifestyles' Its naieve at best to think otherwise.

Legalising drugs isn't going to suddenly increase the rates of amphetamine induced wife beatings. Why would it. There is no evidence to suggest that following prohibition that people went berko and killed each other drinking.





Your lawyer mate is in the minority by far.

And no, you're right, we don't know that legalising drugs will increase the rates of amphet rage.
But it sure as sh!t won't reduce it!

As soon as you legalise it, for whatever reason (including health), you legitamise it in the eyes of young people.
Seeing as though they all try grog at younger ages than ever before, resulting in the parties you see spilling onto the street every weekend on the news, do we really want the same numbers of young folk trying hard drugs because it is easier and legal!!????

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
20 Jun 2011 8:32PM
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My two cents worth.

Just because alcohol and tobacco are legal isn't an arguement to legalise, cannabis, kronic, amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, mushies etc. There is a huge amount of research that establishes tobacco and alcohol cause immesurable pain and suffering on the community. Why would the govt legalise anymore drugs?

They are all drugs of addiction and all have the capacity to screw any person that takes them, sure there are examples where people partake and lead a normal functioning life, but for every 'successful' user there are another 100 that are watching their life go down the toilet. If drugs can bring down the likes of Ben Couins they can get anyone.

If you don't believe all this sh1t is bad, look at the Northern Territory Intervention a few years ago and all the research into Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, and the liquor bans in place up north, find an ED doctor and ask them about the effect of drugs and alcohol on their workload, check out the courts on a Monday morning or chat to a psych nurse and get their point of view.

It's too late (and totally inconceivable) to ban alcohol and tobacco, but geez imagine the positives if it was done.

Amsterdam is also no longer an example of positive drug use either, last I read it was getting out of hand over there and they had started the process of restricting access to cannabis.

GalahOnTheBay
NSW, 4188 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:54PM
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Chris6791 said...

Why would the govt legalise anymore drugs?


Simple - so that they could tax them just as they do tobacco and alcohol...

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
20 Jun 2011 9:49PM
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GalahOnTheBay said...

Chris6791 said...

Why would the govt legalise anymore drugs?


Simple - so that they could tax them just as they do tobacco and alcohol...


I could just claim that tax revenue exceeds costs, but that would be pointless without some basis to support the claim. It took me a while to find it but for 2004/5 total tax revenue to state and federal govt for alcohol, tobacco (and illicit drugs) was about 7.8 billion dollars, compared to the total cost to community and govt calculated to 55 billion dollars.

Doesn't sound like a good investment to me?

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/drugstrategy/publishing.nsf/Content/34F55AF632F67B70CA2573F60005D42B/$File/mono64.pdf

Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
20 Jun 2011 9:54PM
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Careful Chris, the socialist left are idealists.

You will puzzle them if using irrefutable logic, like your last 2 posts contain.

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:01PM
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Chris6791 said...


Amsterdam is also no longer an example of positive drug use either



Not so .....

In the Netherlands 9.5% of young adults (aged 15–34) consume soft drugs once a month, comparable to the level of Finland (8%), Latvia (9,7%) and Norway (9.6%) and less than in the UK (13.8%), Germany (11,9%), Czech Republic (19,3%), Denmark (13,3%), Spain (18.8%), France (16,7%), Slovakia (14,7%) and Italy (20,9%) but higher than in Bulgaria (4,4%), Sweden (4,8%), Poland (5,3%) or Greece (3,2%). The monthly prevalence of drugs other than cannabis among young people (15-24) was 4% in 2004, that was above the average (3%) of 15 compared countries in EU. However, seemingly few transcend to becoming problem drug users (0.30%), well below the average (0.52%) of the same compared countries.

The reported number of deaths linked to the use of drugs in the Netherlands, as a proportion of the entire population, is together with Poland, France, Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech Republic the lowest of the EU. The Dutch government is able to support approximately 90% of help-seeking addicts with detoxification programs. Treatment demand is rising.

Criminal investigations into more serious forms of organized crime mainly involve drugs (72%). Most of these are investigations of hard drug crime (specifically cocaine and synthetic drugs) although the number of soft drug cases is rising and currently accounts for 69% of criminal investigations.

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:07PM
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One also needs to consider the cost of war on drugs vs legalisation.

A 2008 study by Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron has estimated that legalizing drugs would inject $76.8 billion a year into the U.S. economy — $44.1 billion from law enforcement savings, and at least $32.7 billion in tax revenue ($6.7 billion from marijuana, $22.5 billion from cocaine and heroin, remainder from other drugs). Recent surveys help to confirm the consensus among economists to reform drug policy in the direction of decriminalization and legalization.



and then the corruption....

A lawsuit filed in 1986 by two journalists represented by the Christic Institute showed that the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and other parties were engaged in criminal acts, including financing the purchase of arms with the proceeds of cocaine sales


poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:10PM
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Strangely its the 40th anniversary of 'the war on drugs' that Nixon introduced this Friday.
I'm gonna wear a hat.

Carantoc
WA, 6725 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:13PM
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Gambling, Drugs and Sex.

In every prediction of an evil totalitarian future state in any book or movie the state has always banned gambling, drugs and sex.

Thus, I conclude, these are the things that define liberty and freedom.

Andrew Wilkie wants to ban gambling

State Governments are banning drugs

Who is going to ban sex ?

Carantoc
WA, 6725 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:20PM
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Chris6791 said...

Why would the govt legalise anymore drugs?



Why did they make the illegal ?

Because of the bohemian types that partook.

Not for any other reason, just the politicans didn't like the class of people who legally carried out an activity.

Follow that logic and why wouldn't you ban Rugby League or tricked up Jap hatches ?

Carantoc
WA, 6725 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:26PM
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Maybe if they called it something less in your face than Kronic, it might have slipped under the radar for longer.

Maybe something like 'painaway - the natural herbal remedy for a wide range of cronic pain symptoms for the elderly, infirmed and those looking for a gentler alternative'

instead of 'Kronic - the bad-ass legal alternative to hard-core weed that the mother-****er pigs can't get ya for man'

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:35PM
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poor relative said...

Chris6791 said...


Amsterdam is also no longer an example of positive drug use either



Not so .....

In the Netherlands 9.5% of young adults (aged 15–34) consume soft drugs once a month, comparable to the level of Finland (8%), Latvia (9,7%) and Norway (9.6%) and less than in the UK (13.8%), Germany (11,9%), Czech Republic (19,3%), Denmark (13,3%), Spain (18.8%), France (16,7%), Slovakia (14,7%) and Italy (20,9%) but higher than in Bulgaria (4,4%), Sweden (4,8%), Poland (5,3%) or Greece (3,2%). The monthly prevalence of drugs other than cannabis among young people (15-24) was 4% in 2004, that was above the average (3%) of 15 compared countries in EU. However, seemingly few transcend to becoming problem drug users (0.30%), well below the average (0.52%) of the same compared countries.

The reported number of deaths linked to the use of drugs in the Netherlands, as a proportion of the entire population, is together with Poland, France, Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech Republic the lowest of the EU. The Dutch government is able to support approximately 90% of help-seeking addicts with detoxification programs. Treatment demand is rising.

Criminal investigations into more serious forms of organized crime mainly involve drugs (72%). Most of these are investigations of hard drug crime (specifically cocaine and synthetic drugs) although the number of soft drug cases is rising and currently accounts for 69% of criminal investigations.



What I got from that was they still have a drug problem, can't provide help to all that need it (though they have legalised and taxed it), and the problem is getting worse not better?

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
20 Jun 2011 10:59PM
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poor relative said...

One also needs to consider the cost of war on drugs vs legalisation.

A 2008 study by Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron has estimated that legalizing drugs would inject $76.8 billion a year into the U.S. economy — $44.1 billion from law enforcement savings, and at least $32.7 billion in tax revenue ($6.7 billion from marijuana, $22.5 billion from cocaine and heroin, remainder from other drugs). Recent surveys help to confirm the consensus among economists to reform drug policy in the direction of decriminalization and legalization.






Ok, if we are going to use US statistics,

"The total costs of drug abuse and addiction due to use of tobacco, alcohol and illegal drugs are estimated at $524 billion a year... Illicit drug use alone accounts for $181 billion in health care, productivity loss, crime, incarceration and drug enforcement.".

The number still don't add up, legalise the illegal stuff it and it will inject $76.8 billion into the US economy, but as it is it already rips $181 billion out of their economy that doesn't sound like a great investment for their govt either. And the $181 billion can only go through the roof if you legalise it and more people think a drug induced psychosis is a nifty way to spend a Saturday night.

*disclaimer - it was difficult to get reliable stats from an unbiased US website but all the figures I found were in the same ballpark.

myusernam
QLD, 6133 posts
21 Jun 2011 8:00AM
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chronic said...

Sailhack said...

Wanna hear something funny...I had to google 'Kronic', never heard of it until this thread started!

Waaay back, when I was a teen, a work colleague (apprentice) and a few others decided to try boiling up (insert exotic flower name) and eating the petals, as it was growing in our local botanical garden. I turned up at his place the next day to get a lift to trade-school and he was still hallucinating!

2 of his mates ended up wandering the street that night with no pants on & getting locked up, whilst he swore that I had called in to have brekky with him that morning! He even remembered the conversation he had at brekky with me and his ex girlfriend's dad (who had passed away a couple of years before!)...totally trippin!

As for dangerous - I was too young to drive, so he drove the 2hrs to trade-school. he fell asleep 3 times on that journey & went onto the gravel, I had to grab the wheel and yell at him each time, he also drove into some peoples driveway that he thought he knew!



Daytura....



hmm chronic you seem to know about the angels trumpet. Do i take that as an admission of guilt?

Hamsta
505 posts
21 Jun 2011 7:57AM
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getfunky said...
Kn L!!

Lucky to survive the drive with the Walrus there SH.

How ironic - you couldn't drive coz it was against the law so Timothy Leary pilots the space shuttle into unchartered territory.






Damn that was funny stuff there getfunky, and you raise a very interesting point re: the novelty factor as well.

As for Kronic, I wouldn't feel to safe working around people, many of whom who are not that sharp to begin with judging by the conversations they have whilst waiting for their flights to work, and have been further dumbed down with artifical weed. Do any mines in WA still operate wet messes?

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
21 Jun 2011 9:07AM
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Chris6791 said...

What I got from that was they still have a drug problem, can't provide help to all that need it (though they have legalised and taxed it), and the problem is getting worse not better?


Really?
what i got was that despite cannabis being legally available the rates of use in the youth is less rthan many other EU countries where cannabis is illegal.
I also got that the death rate due to drugs is the lowest in the EU as legalisation has enabled people to access treatment.

I am unsure as to what prohibition is trying to achieve. It does not discorage drug use, aids organised crime, stigmatises drug users, makes accessing and providing treatment impossible, makes it easier for minors to obtain and makes a health problem a criminal one.

felixdcat
WA, 3519 posts
21 Jun 2011 10:26AM
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Carantoc said...


Who is going to ban sex ?


The catholic church is trying hard!

SomeOtherGuy
NSW, 807 posts
21 Jun 2011 1:25PM
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poor relative said...

Chris6791 said...

What I got from that was they still have a drug problem, can't provide help to all that need it (though they have legalised and taxed it), and the problem is getting worse not better?


Really?
what i got was that despite cannabis being legally available the rates of use in the youth is less rthan many other EU countries where cannabis is illegal.
I also got that the death rate due to drugs is the lowest in the EU as legalisation has enabled people to access treatment.

I am unsure as to what prohibition is trying to achieve. It does not discorage drug use, aids organised crime, stigmatises drug users, makes accessing and providing treatment impossible, makes it easier for minors to obtain and makes a health problem a criminal one.



Good man PR, but it's a lost cause. I've had these same debates with lots of people over the years to no avail. They're so entrenched in the view that drugs should be illegal that they just can't seem to take in that there could be another approach. You can point out that 40 years of prohibition hasn't stopped anything and it's like Mrs Marsh's chalk. It just doesn't get in.

By the way, FWIW, worst drug I take is alky-hol (beer and wine preferred). Gave up ciggies years ago. Tried cannabis a couple of times as a young'un but didn't inhale...

SomeOtherGuy
NSW, 807 posts
21 Jun 2011 1:28PM
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Chris6791 said...

My two cents worth.

Just because alcohol and tobacco are legal isn't an arguement to legalise, cannabis, kronic, amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, mushies etc. There is a huge amount of research that establishes tobacco and alcohol cause immesurable pain and suffering on the community. Why would the govt legalise anymore drugs?

They are all drugs of addiction and all have the capacity to screw any person that takes them, sure there are examples where people partake and lead a normal functioning life, but for every 'successful' user there are another 100 that are watching their life go down the toilet. If drugs can bring down the likes of Ben Couins they can get anyone.

If you don't believe all this sh1t is bad, look at the Northern Territory Intervention a few years ago and all the research into Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, and the liquor bans in place up north, find an ED doctor and ask them about the effect of drugs and alcohol on their workload, check out the courts on a Monday morning or chat to a psych nurse and get their point of view.

It's too late (and totally inconceivable) to ban alcohol and tobacco, but geez imagine the positives if it was done.

Amsterdam is also no longer an example of positive drug use either, last I read it was getting out of hand over there and they had started the process of restricting access to cannabis.




See? Mrs Marsh's chalk.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
21 Jun 2011 2:40PM
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Chris6791 said...
It took me a while to find it but for 2004/5 total tax revenue to state and federal govt for alcohol, tobacco (and illicit drugs) was about 7.8 billion dollars, compared to the total cost to community and govt calculated to 55 billion dollars.

Doesn't sound like a good investment to me?

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/drugstrategy/publishing.nsf/Content/34F55AF632F67B70CA2573F60005D42B/$File/mono64.pdf


(we tax illicit drugs?)

$55 billion dollars? Holy ****!
Per year? That's nearly 20x the cost of the NBN... forever.

Chris6791
WA, 3271 posts
21 Jun 2011 1:27PM
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Illicit drugs obviously aren't directly taxed but they are calculated into the cost to the community of $55b, just a poorly structured sentence on my part thats all

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
21 Jun 2011 1:34PM
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Chris6791 said...

Illicit drugs obviously aren't directly taxed but they are calculated into the cost to the community of $55b, just a poorly structured sentence on my part thats all


No more bongs for you!

Mark _australia
WA, 22521 posts
21 Jun 2011 1:36PM
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That explains his munchies
"time for lunch yet? time for lunch yet?" all morning.....

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
21 Jun 2011 1:49PM
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Mark _australia said...

That explains his munchies
"time for lunch yet? time for lunch yet?" all morning.....



Just had a kebab for lunch, not bad

poor relative
WA, 9089 posts
21 Jun 2011 2:31PM
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I wonder if the demand for locally cooked speed would drop if Heroin was more freely available.

doggie
WA, 15849 posts
21 Jun 2011 2:39PM
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poor relative said...

I wonder if the demand for locally cooked speed would drop if Heroin was more freely available.



Na, one is an upper, the other is a downer. Different users, and they rarely mixed.



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"Kronic will be banned" started by felixdcat