Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

climate change whos paying?

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Created by NowindSurfer > 9 months ago, 8 Dec 2009
cwamit
WA, 1194 posts
29 Dec 2009 7:08PM
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hi guys, after all the intellectual posts , i figured i shouldn't be a sheep and do a search on climate change to find the truth, i came up with this site.. here is a tiny url to make it easy to type into your browser i think it will open a few eyes to both believers and non believers of climate change that indeed with due dilligence and in depth searching skills the truth can be found on the internet.

http://tiny.cc/climatechangereality

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
29 Dec 2009 9:13PM
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great read cwamit,

i think that gestalt guy and gingerpom put together some very strong arguments.

how did you do that with the link??

funny stuff.

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
30 Dec 2009 12:41AM
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Sick of this thread now. No-one is going to change the world on this forum...

Went for a great sail today

maxm
NSW, 864 posts
30 Dec 2009 8:57AM
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Gestalt said...

i wouldn't be too hastey maxm,


Yeah, thanks Gestalt. It didn't take long to work that out.

Hey cisco, have you read this thing?

page 74

38. [The monitoring and assessment of compliance [shall][should]]


[Option 1
[lead to the application of penalties for non-compliance, including increased future reduction commitments by an amount calculated as a multiple of the shortfall in implementation and financial contributions as penalties or fines and paid into an enhanced financial mechanism monetary penalties to be paid to the Adaptation Fund)] [taking into account experiences gained from relevant international
agreements].]

[Option 2
[utilize procedures and mechanisms to address cases of non-compliance determined by the principle that they should be designed to facilitate compliance in the future. ]]

[Option 3
[lead to the application of penalties for non-compliance, including [increased future reduction commitments by an amount calculated as a multiple of the shortfall in implementation [and] [as well as ] financial contributions as penalties [10 times to the market price of one tonne of carbon and ] [or] fines [and] paid into [an enhanced] [the Convention] financial mechanism][monetary penalties to be paid to the Adaptation Fund][a mechanism that establishes clear and direct consequences for noncompliance].]]]

Alternative to paragraphs 37 and/or 38:
[The compliance procedures applied to Kyoto Parties under Section XV of the annex to decision 24/CP.7 and that are relevant to quantified emission limitation or reduction commitments shall be applied equally to all Annex I Parties, whether or not Parties to the Kyoto Protocol. Such compliance procedures may be
enhanced.]


Just on the subject of penalties alone there are 3 options and an alternative. The options are

(i) apply some (non specific) penalties which could maybe be possibly the need to make further reductions some time later maybe... or maybe financial... maybe... no mention of how much... (ZERO is just as likely as any other number you care to pick)

(ii) use some measures to make compliance easier in the future. What measures? Geez... dunno...

(iii) both of the above

Or the alternative to all of the above: do whatever they did in the Kyoto Protocol

That's not an isolated example. It's all like that! C'mon... these guys haven't even decided what colour to use for the cover of the submission recommending to the subcomittee examining alternative chairs of the committee to investigate what parking arrangement shall be in place for the next review board.

You're back to zip... doc or it didn't happen.

cisco
QLD, 12326 posts
30 Dec 2009 11:30AM
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maxm said...
Hey cisco, have you read this thing?


Yes I have skimmed it and it has more holes than a flour seive and they want it to be legally binding.


It is all about money. They want to tax developed nations a minimum of 0.07% of GDP.

They want this:-

A [global] levy of 2 per cent on international financial market [monetary] transactions to Annex I Parties.

A uniform global levy of USD 2 per tonne of CO2 for all countries with per capita emissions higher than
[1.5][2.0] tonnes of CO2; the LDCs shall be exempt.

An international adaptation levy on airfares, except on journeys originating from or destined for LDCs.

Agreed penalties or fines on non-compliance of developed country Parties with their commitments to reduce emissions and provide support in the form of financial resources, technology transfer and
capacity-building.

and this just to keep the Arabs happy

4. A Special Fund:
29. A special fund shall be established:
(a) For the economic and social consequences of response measures (para. 1 (b) (vi) of theBali Action Plan);
(b) To assist countries whose economies are highly dependent on income generated from the
production, processing and export, and/or on consumption of fossil fuels and associated energy-intensive products (Article 4.8(h) of the Convention).

But then way back on page 29 they say this:-

Any lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason to
postpone or scale down action on adaptation.

So what they are saying is that they don't care whether the "science" is correct or not, they just wan't to tax the guts out of so called "developed" nations.


maxm
NSW, 864 posts
30 Dec 2009 3:32PM
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cisco said...

But then way back on page 29 they say this:-

Any lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason to
postpone or scale down action on adaptation.


yarrr... well, why not quote the whole blinkin' clause instead of quoting selectively:

14
(q) [Adhere to] the precautionary principle [, agreed upon in Principle 15 of the Rio Declaration and Article 3.3 of Convention, in adaptation planning, decision-making and implementation, with regard to the scale and nature of adaptation actions and to prevent maladaptation. Any lack of full scientific certainty should not be used as a reason to postpone or scale down action on adaptation];


which, again, is tentative not concrete. In fact the whole thing is about as concrete as custard. None of it is agreed to by anyone, not even the parties to the working group!

I may as well lay awake at night worrying about someone being under my bed. There's a good cure for that in the funniest jokes thread.

mineral1
WA, 4564 posts
30 Dec 2009 1:10PM
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Oi guys, a top level Uni lecture once said .
“Anything longer than four (4) A4 size pages isn’t worth the read, so I don’t bother. If I cant get the drift in the first 4, it’s a zero mark”.
I like your passion fulla's, but 8 pages.......

ang about, flame suit on.... righto, givittooer[}:)]

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
30 Dec 2009 5:12PM
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mineral1 said...

Oi guys, a top level Uni lecture once said .
“Anything longer than four (4) A4 size pages isn’t worth the read, so I don’t bother. If I cant get the drift in the first 4, it’s a zero mark”.
I like your passion fulla's, but 8 pages.......

ang about, flame suit on.... righto, givittooer[}:)]


fair play but how many four page things has the lecturer read...

I would say something that mixes global development, population issues, climate change, international treaties, taxation changes blah blah, might just involve more than one four page document..

besides most of this thread is not communicating effectively - it's winding each other up and bullying weirdos - we'll stop when the wind comes through

maxm
NSW, 864 posts
30 Dec 2009 6:09PM
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ginger pom said...besides most of this thread is not communicating effectively - it's winding each other up and bullying weirdos - we'll stop when the wind comes through


Yep

At the moment, it's about all that's keeping me awake on an otherwise REALLY quiet week at work. Roll on Thursday arvo!!

cwamit
WA, 1194 posts
30 Dec 2009 5:28PM
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Gestalt said...

great read cwamit,

i think that gestalt guy and gingerpom put together some very strong arguments.

how did you do that with the link??

funny stuff.


go to tiny.cc/

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
30 Dec 2009 8:55PM
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ginger pom.......Sick of this thread now. No-one is going to change the world on this forum...

at last we agree on something......it should still not stop people from telling the truth as they see it.

still patiently awaiting your reply as to how physic Larry managed to ''stand back and watch the building collapse''.

take a look at the collapse of building 7,a primary 3 schoolkid can see it was a controlled demo.

perhaps gestalt can give me an explanation. he seems pretty much up with the details on most things.

a few hundred million worldwide[at least] are still baffled by Larry Silversteins seemingly physic power.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
30 Dec 2009 11:04PM
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actually when it comes to buildings i am very much up to speed with details there.

and for the record peter, nearly everything i have written in this thread has been a cut and paste from experts which have been peer reviewed. working in an industry where it takes many experts to make something real i understand the importance of "expert opinion"

petermac33 said...

ginger pom.......Sick of this thread now. No-one is going to change the world on this forum...

at last we agree on something......it should still not stop people from telling the truth as they see it.

still patiently awaiting your reply as to how physic Larry managed to ''stand back and watch the building collapse''.

take a look at the collapse of building 7,a primary 3 schoolkid can see it was a controlled demo.

perhaps gestalt can give me an explanation. he seems pretty much up with the details on most things.

a few hundred million worldwide[at least] are still baffled by Larry Silversteins seemingly physic power.


ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
31 Dec 2009 12:06AM
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petermac33 said...

ginger pom.......Sick of this thread now. No-one is going to change the world on this forum...

at last we agree on something......it should still not stop people from telling the truth as they see it.

still patiently awaiting your reply as to how physic Larry managed to ''stand back and watch the building collapse''.

take a look at the collapse of building 7,a primary 3 schoolkid can see it was a controlled demo.

perhaps gestalt can give me an explanation. he seems pretty much up with the details on most things.

a few hundred million worldwide[at least] are still baffled by Larry Silversteins seemingly physic power.


from debunking 911.. the page i linked to a little while ago

Claim

Controlled demolition was used to bring about the collapse of 7 World Trade Center on the afternoon of September 11, 2001.

This claim was bolstered by a comment made by Larry Silverstein on a PBS documentary, America Rebuilds, where he uttered the phrase "pull it". Conspiracy theorists claim that this is slang term used in building implosions, and that with those words, Silverstein was authorizing the demolition of WTC 7.

Fact

Controlled demolition experts reject the notion that "pull it" is a term used in building implosions.

The only context that "pull" has been used in building demolition is for small buildings (a few stories tall), where construction crews attach long cables to pre-weaken a structure and literally pull it down with bulldozers and other equipment.

"Pull" is also used by firefighters in reference to "pulling firefighters out of a building", because the situation is too dangerous. It is in this context that Silverstein used the term "pull it".

His spokesperson, Dara McQuillan, said that by "it", Silverstein was referring to the contigent of firefighters in WTC 7.

FDNY interviews available on the New York Times website also shed light on the use of "pull" in firefighting on 9/11, and help address the question of whether firefighters were in WTC 7 in the afternoon.

FDNY Captain Ray Goldback:

"I'm going to guess it was after 3:00...we walked all the way back down to Vesey Street. There was a big discussion going on at that point about pulling all of our units out of 7 World Trade Center. Chief Nigro didn't feel it was worth taking the slightest chance of somebody else getting injured. So at that point we made a decision to take all of our units out of 7 World Trade Center because there was a potential for collapse." [1]
Firefighter Richard Banaciski was in the Verizon Building, adjacent to WTC7.

“ Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street. [2] ”

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
30 Dec 2009 9:07PM
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gestalt...."there is no signed binding agreement between any countries"

if they do come to an agreement between all countries, who is going to police these LAWS.

the U.N.......showing the possibility if an agreement is reached, we will be a big step closer to a U.N controlled one world government.


Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
30 Dec 2009 11:10PM
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well if you want to go one pondering hypotheticals i'm not going to stop you.

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
30 Dec 2009 9:15PM
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i asked for a reply as to how physic Larry ''managed to stand back and watch the building collapse''

you responded by giving an explanation[if you can call it one] to Larry saying ''pull it''.

this is not what i am asking you to respond to.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
30 Dec 2009 11:21PM
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do you mean psychic larry?

anyways, i'm also psychic,

the night the plane flew into the trade towers i was watching it live on tv. at the same time on msn with a windsurfing mate.

i remember very clearly saying to him.

"mate, i know enough about buildings to tell you that that building is going to colapse. i'd be getting as far away from it as possible"

you wouldn't beleive it but it collapsed not long after.

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
30 Dec 2009 9:46PM
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still patiently awaiting reply to question.... not something else.

if you get your belief [your version of reality] from experts, then this explains perfectly as to why most people are not able to think for themselves rationally anymore.

listen to vids on y/tube of Alan Watt, he talks a lot about the so called ''experts''

how many are bought + paid for by the corporate establishment.

in the same way big pharma gives incentives to doctors to precribe more pharma drugs.

think for yourself, rather than believing what the ''experts'' tell you.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
31 Dec 2009 12:03AM
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which question? i've lost track.

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
31 Dec 2009 1:18AM
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Gestalt said...
in the end the conspiracy was actually created by conspiracists.


That's friggin' awesome. Going to add it to my book of quotes, right under "Superstition is bad luck".

Anyone remember that silly graph I did ages back of how many people there are in China vs Australia? If the Chinese (and India.. may as well throw in Brazil and Russia) aren't on board it is going to be useless.

They don't look like they are coming on board.

I thought China had a really, really, really good point about population control though. They are playing a different ball game to us it seems. They have a pretty viable solution we just don't want to listen to, and I guess vice versa.

Anyway, here's this I found on the interwwwebs:



I like to imagine that in 1,000 years human-kind will look back and say something like "If the world didn't turn into something resembling Venus we'd never have discovered x. Who'd have imagined back then it would all turn out so good?"

evlPanda
NSW, 9202 posts
31 Dec 2009 1:27AM
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Oh yes...

Does all this CO2 cause warming? I guess you could breath into a bag and add a thermometer and sunlight (and a control bag), no?

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
31 Dec 2009 12:40AM
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the population thing is interesting, i have a lot of respect for tim flannery, (who is not a climatologist )

it's also interesting that he refers to population and how to support it. majority of his work was based solely on a popluation that australia can sustain. also that australias big population issue is actually due to imigration.

note sure i am onboard with that.

i had a look at the countries with the highest birth rates. then cross checked that against the countries with the highest co2 emissions,

i think the word to use is polar! the countries with the lowest co2 emissions have the highest birthrates.

now that doesn't include details on deforestation. which is obviously a big issue. from a quick look the countires with the highest population growth also have the highest deforestation. ultimately though i think it has been proven that deforestation is not necessary to support population growth nor is co2 outputs.

from what i have found australia currently has 1.9 births per woman. or something close to that. it's under 2.

Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
31 Dec 2009 12:44AM
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speaking of conspiracies,

i had heard some rumours that the labor party is using the carbon tax to steal from the rich and give to the poor.

now i was told this prior to the announcments in the last few days about poor families being better off under ets.

ginger pom
VIC, 1746 posts
31 Dec 2009 9:26AM
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j murray
SA, 947 posts
31 Dec 2009 9:22AM
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just as mineral1 said.......4 pages, any more is uninteresting,

equates to .......foreplay ....now get stuck into it !!! [}:)]

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
31 Dec 2009 6:54AM
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petermac33 said...



take a look at the collapse of building 7,a primary 3 schoolkid can see it was a controlled demo.




I think that is a myth perpetuated by demolition experts, ie. that it takes skill to make a building collapse straight down.

Unlike a tree, as soon as a topple commences the remaining good columns quickly fail under compression (combined with the slight bend) and from then on it's pretty much straight down.

maxm
NSW, 864 posts
31 Dec 2009 10:20AM
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I watched the thing live on TV with my son and kept wondering how come they hadn't fallen down. They were mighty big planes travelling pretty bloody quick. Didn't take Einstein to see the end result.

Anyway, what has any of this crap got to do with climate change?

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
31 Dec 2009 7:50AM
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maxm.....They were mighty big planes travelling pretty bloody quick. Didn't take Einstein to see the end result.

well a b52 bomber crashed into the upper floors of empire state building in 1962.... believe it still stands today.

petermac33
WA, 6415 posts
31 Dec 2009 7:52AM
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its the suns activity that causes the earth to go through cooling + warming cycles.


Gestalt
QLD, 14393 posts
31 Dec 2009 10:09AM
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petermac33 said...

maxm.....They were mighty big planes travelling pretty bloody quick. Didn't take Einstein to see the end result.

well a b52 bomber crashed into the upper floors of empire state building in 1962.... believe it still stands today.




this is rediculous, have a look at a photo of the hole in the building of the empire state. the hole was 5.x6m and the fire was put out in 40 minutes.

the hole was in conctrete building also! the building itself was steel and concrete with a traditional core!

wtc was frickin steel with spray on fire proofing and all of the structure was on the outside of the building. 3 storeys on fire and a massive live load above that lead to failure. of course it was going to collapse.

modern fire ratings of buildings are based on time and look at spread of flame, smoke and structural integrity. they are designed to have fires put out. don't put out the fire and it's going to collapse. 90-120 minutes is a typical time frame

as for wt7

clearly on the structural failure diagram a large part of the building was taken out by the collapsing towers around it. this then lead to a failure of the transfer beam. which lead to a failure of the core. and it all happened very quickly once the transfer beam failed. shear.

a transfer beam is a beam that redistributes loads from above to another location. they take massive amounts of load. i have had 3000m deep solid concrete transfer beams on building.

you need to take into context we are talking wt7 was 47 storeys tall. that is a very tall building. the other towers were 110 storeys.

seroiusly it is impossible to have a debate with the paranoid.



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"climate change whos paying?" started by NowindSurfer