Forums > Land Yacht Sailing Construction

Building new class 5

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Created by aus230 > 9 months ago, 23 Aug 2008
aus230
WA, 1659 posts
4 Nov 2008 9:16PM
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If you can not buy it somtimes you have to make it, plus it is keeping me entertained.

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
4 Nov 2008 11:02PM
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Fitted the 26"wheels to aus230 for testing, Will be fitted to new yacht when it is completed. So far so good




landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
5 Nov 2008 10:50PM
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aus230
WA, 1659 posts
6 Nov 2008 2:07PM
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Started attaching seat to frame today




FAZE5
SA, 55 posts
6 Nov 2008 11:16PM
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G'day Vic,
Your yacht looks great, much better than where I was thinking of heading.

I'll keep watching.

I might even get to blow the cobwebs off my L L mini this weekend.
Cheers, Bill

By the way, recent carbon/sandwich experimental work I've seen at Uni has been done with vacuum infusion - not as hard to do as you might think & 1/7th the cost of pre-preg (this is using carbon, but method still works with cheaper materials)

landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
6 Nov 2008 10:13PM
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FAZE5 said...

G'day Vic,
Your yacht looks great, much better than where I was thinking of heading.

I'll keep watching.

I might even get to blow the cobwebs off my L L mini this weekend.
Cheers, Bill


better get practicing Bill,, My newwie is real low and go [}:)]and Ive drawn a 4.5m on the shed floor to go with it. The new 5.5 has been recut and is getting a test this weekend too

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
6 Nov 2008 10:14PM
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Thanks Bill
Sounds interesting how does it work. maybe somthing to try in my next program (if I get bored)
Cheers
Vic

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
26 Nov 2008 10:48AM
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The test on the wheels proved satisfactory, no signs of damage or stress to the rims, The yacht had a noticable gain in speed. Had to fit my old sail as the one pictured was made to fit my new yacht. (boom came down to low on aus230)
Cheers


landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
26 Nov 2008 9:17PM
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how long before we see the whole of the "Beast of Bermingham" and not just the wings and the high heels

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
5 Dec 2008 11:24AM
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AUS230 No3. Almost finished, Now ready to strip sand and paint(hope she works)






landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
7 Dec 2008 5:40PM
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just guessing, Black?

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
7 Dec 2008 8:17PM
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What else

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
15 Dec 2008 6:15PM
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Finished AUS230 today except for setting wheel angles and seat belts. Its been a fun project costing around $1500 including new sail. Parts used from old yacht -mast- boom- axles (these could be changed a a later date to reduce a couple of Kg's) yacht weighs 54kg









FAZE5
SA, 55 posts
21 Dec 2008 9:52PM
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Your new 'yacht looks fantastic Vic,
very interesting to see how it goes, I'm sure it'll be very different & take some tuning....

Cheers,

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
20 Jan 2009 9:01PM
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AUS230 finished. I guess it will take a few sailing days to tune it proply so far it handles well. had to change a few things after the first sail. I think it will end up being a fun yacht to sail.


hills
SA, 1622 posts
20 Jan 2009 11:04PM
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looks good. What's the website across the back?

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
21 Jan 2009 12:57AM
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A boating /fishing site that supplied the stickers plus other items (ausfish.com.au)

cisco
QLD, 12325 posts
21 Jan 2009 11:01AM
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Looks fantastic Vic. The two handle bar looking things near the wheels. Are they hand brakes or push off bars or both?

If your old yacht is looking for a new home, be sure to tell me.
Cheers Peter.

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
22 Jan 2009 1:42AM
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Peter
They are hand brakes, I dont think they are all that efficent with the larger wheels, they work fine with wheel barrow wheels. It is a requirment to have a hand break. I may go back to a front wheel break. (seen some good ones on blocarts)
Cheers

cisco
QLD, 12325 posts
23 Jan 2009 2:16AM
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A question I have pondered is:- If a land yacht had independant rear wheel brakes, could they improve turning in tacks and gybes or just make the rear end spin out??

The blokart front brake looks very good and being hand steerers, easy to use. Blokart recommends they not be used on beaches. I do not see a problem as centrifical force should get rid of sand. Maybe they are talking about when they get wet and thereby become ineffective???

Maybe this question will be resolved at the upcoming blokart nationals at Yeppoon, first weekend in March as many blokarts now have the front brake. If slowing down before executing a turn is what is desired a front brake would logically seem to be the way to go as it will not cause imbalance. With the smaller weight being carried by the front wheel it might just lock it up. Not good.
Cheers Peter

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
23 Jan 2009 9:59AM
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Peter
At the sandgropers club, they use the rear brakes for turning all the time, on their surface it it lookss very effective and was the reasion that I fitted them to my yacht. I will have to play around with them a bit as the larger diameter wheel is not as responsive to this system as the smaller wheels
cheers
vic

cisco
QLD, 12325 posts
23 Jan 2009 11:20AM
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Aha. So there is a case for rear brakes Vic. Looking at yours I first thought they were a dig in the ground type but seemed to be the wrong way round. looking again I see that they are a friction on the tyre arrangement. Thanks for your patience and enlightenment. Cheers Peter.

aus230
WA, 1659 posts
27 Jan 2009 9:54PM
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Well AUS230 had its first outing. Things did not go to well, But it was a learning curve. made a heap of changes to the yacht today, hopefully correcting some of the weird sailing habits.
It appears that the centre of effort was way to far back and ended up with very little control at the front wheel.only (3kg) on front wheel when seated
The wheels had to much angle on them (20%) changed back to (12%) today
Moved my seating position forward so that there is more weight on the front wheel(14kg)
I will spend some time testing it out in Kambalda in the next couple of weeks.
Pics tell the story.
Cheers
AUS230



landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
28 Jan 2009 10:37AM
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Couple of suggestions Vic, Keep your arms in, tighter seat belt.
It looks like your weight has shifted back which has started the front wheel lifting.
always keep your feet on the steering and the front wheel straight . Always keep the sheeting in hard to avoid ssail damage. with all that you may eventually be able to recover from a trip like that and be able to keep sailing
Pleased to see the wheels survived the testing.

Hiko
1229 posts
28 Jan 2009 10:51AM
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The class 5,s in our club all seem to have about 10 to 12 % of camber and about
10 Kg on the front fully loaded

Many european yachts seem to have plenty of camber
It will be interesting to see the results of your changes

aus715
VIC, 58 posts
30 Jan 2009 9:37PM
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I am about to undertake a home-build myself and I really admire your work!
Can I ask a question here, though, if I may? Don't get me wrong, the yacht looks really fabulous!
Why have you gone for the tripod-style chassis? Is that for better access and to get the center of mass down? Your setup seems interesting, compared to the classic style. Because of the body hanging out the back you have established a Class II lever. This is creating an almost neutral force on the front wheel. Once you get a rolling moment established, you look like you are 'falling out the back of the machine'.

With fully-faired racing recumbent trikes (HPVs) we have similar issues when the roll over at speed, particularly into corners. The physics seems remarkably similar actually. What we have learned through 10 years of racing, is that the CM must be at the centroid of the triangle between the wheel hubs, for optimum stability and forward drive.
As an observation, you have put yours outside the triangle quite a lot with your seating position. Oe thing to consider isthat the CM of a human is the pelvis, as your legs weigh around half of your total mass, roughly. I know the sail is involved in changing the rolling moment, and contributes to moving the CM as you heel over, but to me you need to move your body shell forward quite a way.

Just observations from an outsider looking in.

Please take them constructively.

Push on!!!


landyacht
WA, 5921 posts
30 Jan 2009 8:09PM
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Gizmo will probablyexplain it better, but here goes,
your body AND the yacht will combined ,create a centre of resistance. since the yacht has 3 wheels(the most stable platform)you need to balance it by being back more.
THEN you add the rig.If its too far frward the yacht will want bear away, too far back and it will want to round up.(centre of effort)
Remember that the yacht is powered by a sail that applies a side load to the wheels ,which then roll forward in response.Ie it is not wheel driven.
Big narrow wheels give lowered rolling resistance, BUT if stood upright would peel off the rim due to the side load, or the rims would fail, BUT having heavier tyres and rims would give a flywheel effect, ruining the acceleration benifits of really light wheels.
Landyachts ,in general have no suspension other than the flex of the tubes or axles( too heavy).The OTT style chassis(Over the top) compensates for this by having long flexible limbs that can ride out some serious bumps and dips. they were designed for European tidal beach conditions which can be really brutal.
Many of the design features become un;neccessary on really smooth hard surfaces.Mind you these yacht on hard and smooth go scary fast!
The right tyre can also be a dilemna. Vic discovered that really tough MTB tyres VS lake walyungup rocks is not in his favour .
One of the things to consider with this top end style yacht is that they need to be custom built for for each pilot, to get all the balances right.
And thats why , when we worked on a simple design for the beginner that would still go like a rocket, we followed the example of the blokart and went small. All of the above considerations were used to get a yacht that the builder could understand the mechanics of
does that make sense

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
30 Jan 2009 11:02PM
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I have done a ce/cr drawing it looks like it should but the ce will come back a bit when fully sheeted which will put the ce over the cr or a bit behind but it wouldnt be much.
ce = center of effort
cr = center of resistance


Just a thought ( my observations only) on wheel angles (camber) when any wheel has any angle of camber it actually loads up the bearings in a twisting motion with the inner and outer bearings actually fighting each other. There is quite a lot of info on the net about sporting wheel chairs and this problem.
The other problems are your wheels in alignment? and if so how do you know?
This a thought i have often have, and it actually was a thread on seabreeze early in 2008.
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36770&SearchTerms=alignment
Have a look at the alignment with all 3 wheels on the gound then raise one of the rear wheels 500mm and then re check and i think you will find the wheel on the ground its alignment has moved outward a bit and the yacht will be infact be crabbing a little.
The only yacht i have done much sailing in that had castered wheels was a yacht called the "Rickshaw" many years ago at Mallala(It was a mini-mini with 20 inch bmx wheels and a 1.2m wheel base), i actually had to angle the wheels off true alignment to get the feel right. I cant recall if it was toe in or out.
The weight on the front wheel or lack of it may also be another major problem depending the surface you are on.
I hope this might have helped but its probably added more confusion.

Hiko
1229 posts
31 Jan 2009 7:24AM
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There is some very good discussion going on here that we could all learn from
I am though a little confused with the terminology
Please correct me if I am wrong but I think castor refers to things like steering
king pin angles and camber refers to the layover from verticle of a wheel and toe in or out is the rolling angle of the wheels when the yacht is moving forward when viewed from above
My understanding of camber then as applied to these yachts is to stop the narrow tyres rolling off the rims under side loads
Most of the class 5s I have seen have about 10% of camber and zero toe in or out at rest with the pilot aboard Our club has a portable frame to check this
If the wheel lifts then the wheel still on the ground tends to toe in
If the front wheel lifts then both rear wheels toe out and drag
The normal weight on the front wheel is around 10kg with pilot aboard
On sand on the class 5s here in NZ the rear tyres have no tread and the yacht will slide in my experience before it will tip unless it is caught by a gust when almost stationary
I dont know if Vic was on sand or salt but I note that he has tread on his tyres Hope some of this makes sense and feel free to correct me if it doesnt

Gizmo
SA, 2865 posts
31 Jan 2009 10:27AM
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You are correct, here is the wikipedia links for a more detailed explanation
I love wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_(automotive)
Or as an overall how it effects handling
www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html



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"Building new class 5" started by aus230