I don't go around the world but my Fleming has gone around the world before I bought it. I have done a few coastal trips and three Lord Howes from Sydney.
The Fleming hasn't really been serviced in that time, I just adjust it and spray lubricant on the various moving parts occasionally.
There have been no problems with the vane although the control lines were replaced during the 2nd Lord Howe and are due again before the next.
Downwind in over 10kts relative you can steer the boat to within a degree or two. On the wind the S&S34 doesn't need a wind vane, it just points wherever you set it. Between the two it varies, a quartering sea needs 12-15kts relative to be really accurate but works with 8-10kts.
so aren't they aloud to use other types of auto steering , and power it with heaps of solar panels ? i see they have wnd genys and water genys
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
From Facebook..............
URGENT SALE.Kevin's #GGR2018 1993 Tradewind 35 is FOR SALE!! First reasonable cash offer in the next four weeks. Ready to go with a working HYDROVANE, all GGR safety gear, charts, sextant, almanac etc etc etc, 9 months food just step on board and cruise to the Pacific or Caribbean or around the world. Maybe an early start for #GGR2022.email Offers to DON@ www.GoldenGloberace.com This was the designer builders own personal boat specially strengthened and able to sail anywhere in safety. Kevin is headed back to the mountains!! Yes it may be a bargain for someone!
?..AS IS WHERE IS Canary Island Marina Rubic?n Sailing Center (TW35 drawing by Francois Chevalier)
Hydrovane and wheel steering by the look of things.
looks like a good set up ! three headys on furlers !
The problem is sailing down wind in fresh conditions and sailing the boat as hard as possible. The servo windvanes will handle the conditions easily enough with a tiller. The problem boats all seem to have wheel steering with the control lines going to drums on the wheels. This gives a fixed ratio which is fine on most points of sail but not down wind where a much faster rudder response is needed. On my boat I have 3 attachment points for the lines. Sailing dead down wind I move the lines down the tiller handle closer to the shaft. Roughly half the distance. This reduces the leverage but the response time is rapid. The servo has heaps of power to overcome the reduced leverage.
There is going to be a lot of downwind sailing in boisterous conditions over the next few weeks!
Ramona you have identified the problem (wind vanes steering a wheel downwind) and come close to proposing the solution.
I saw this on a Polish boat in Malaysia 30 years ago so it is not new (actually quite old) and not my idea,
The wheel was fitted with a tiller. let me try to explain. Looking at the wheel from behind, there was a metre long wooden pole fixed to the wheel at the hub in the vertical position when wheel was midship. That means there was a 500 cm tiller from the hub pointing up and a 500 cm tiller pointing down. The lines from the wind vane instead of running horizontal from the coaming to a normal tiller , ran up to the top of the top tiller and down to the lower tiller. By adjusting the location of where the lines tied off to the tillers, fine adjustments of travel versus torque could be made. Not saying it was perfect, but it worked for one bloke, so....
The skipper had done his sailing training of a fully rigged sailing ship in the 50!s and told me that it had had lines running from the mizzen boom to two extended spokes on the ships wheel and she self steered.
I was amazed by the ideas I saw on a couple of boats from the communist block countries like Poland and the USSR.
If you need wheel steering on a solo round the world racer then this is one way to get the proper response to your rudder. Or you could follow the example of the lead boats and have a tiller steered vessel.
Down to 12 competitors this morning!
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
The problem is sailing down wind in fresh conditions and sailing the boat as hard as possible. The servo windvanes will handle the conditions easily enough with a tiller. The problem boats all seem to have wheel steering with the control lines going to drums on the wheels. This gives a fixed ratio which is fine on most points of sail but not down wind where a much faster rudder response is needed. On my boat I have 3 attachment points for the lines. Sailing dead down wind I move the lines down the tiller handle closer to the shaft. Roughly half the distance. This reduces the leverage but the response time is rapid. The servo has heaps of power to overcome the reduced leverage.
There is going to be a lot of downwind sailing in boisterous conditions over the next few weeks!
Ramona you have identified the problem (wind vanes steering a wheel downwind) and come close to proposing the solution.
I saw this on a Polish boat in Malaysia 30 years ago so it is not new (actually quite old) and not my idea,
The wheel was fitted with a tiller. let me try to explain. Looking at the wheel from behind, there was a metre long wooden pole fixed to the wheel at the hub in the vertical position when wheel was midship. That means there was a 500 cm tiller from the hub pointing up and a 500 cm tiller pointing down. The lines from the wind vane instead of running horizontal from the coaming to a normal tiller , ran up to the top of the top tiller and down to the lower tiller. By adjusting the location of where the lines tied off to the tillers, fine adjustments of travel versus torque could be made. Not saying it was perfect, but it worked for one bloke, so....
The skipper had done his sailing training of a fully rigged sailing ship in the 50!s and told me that it had had lines running from the mizzen boom to two extended spokes on the ships wheel and she self steered.
I was amazed by the ideas I saw on a couple of boats from the communist block countries like Poland and the USSR.
By placing a lever or tiller on the wheel hub would in many cases, be disadvantages compared to using a drum or a quadrant at the wheel hub.
If your wheel steering has a reduction and your wind vane is not providing enough movement or response to your wheel, Any distance you move the control line away from the center of the hub is going to increase the reduction even more and by utilizing a lever or tiller type arrangement to perform the task, even more travel or response is lost when the leverage connection point moves towards the direction of pull, unlike a drum or a quadrant.
This is the sort of stuff I would have thought would have been well and truly sorted before the race
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
The problem is sailing down wind in fresh conditions and sailing the boat as hard as possible. The servo windvanes will handle the conditions easily enough with a tiller. The problem boats all seem to have wheel steering with the control lines going to drums
I think you,ve hit the nail on the head here. I hab a servo pendulum on my previous boat with a wheel and it would only steer higher than a beam reach otherwise it was crazy jibes port and starboard. With aux rudder system it was steady on all points. Just out of interest i built a light weight vane with a nice airfoil shape and it made a noticable difference to downwind performance over the flat vane that you commonly see.
Select to expand quotestray said..Ramona said..
The problem is sailing down wind in fresh conditions and sailing the boat as hard as possible. The servo windvanes will handle the conditions easily enough with a tiller. The problem boats all seem to have wheel steering with the control lines going to drums
I think you,ve hit the nail on the head here. I hab a servo pendulum on my previous boat with a wheel and it would only steer higher than a beam reach otherwise it was crazy jibes port and starboard. With aux rudder system it was steady on all points. Just out of interest i built a light weight vane with a nice airfoil shape and it made a noticable difference to downwind performance over the flat vane that you commonly see.
My vane is tapered from 3mm at the leading edge to 12mm at the trailing edge with triangular vortex generator added to the trailing edge. When you build your own you can afford to experiment and make the best vane. I have no trouble steering downwind as long as I have about 5 knots of wind over the stern.
The leader up til now, Philippe Peche is headed for cape Town because his Beaufort windvane is unrepairable.
This is the same vane that failed on Amil Amra's boat only 2 weeks into the race.
Not good for the brand image!
goldengloberace.com/philippe-peche-heads-for-cape-town/
I am utterly fascinated with windvanes. A non electrical powered auto helm that's reliable and efficient enough to put other energy in-energy out devices to shame.
Dumb question from an ignoramus...is there any dampening effect on the rudder movement as boat speed increases?
On my autohelm, there is a damping effect as the boat accelerates. At low speed, the rudder movement is large in comparison to high speeds where the rudder movement tapers off. This is because the higher the speed, the less rudder input is required. It's linear, so the amount of input is variable right across the speed range.
Does a Fleming work like this? I understand how they work, but not the fine detail.
Thanks!
SB
Edit: If I understand what Gary is referencing, a variable sheeting position increases/decreases the reaction time, but not the amount of throw, is that right?
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
I am utterly fascinated with windvanes. A non electrical powered auto helm that's reliable and efficient enough to put other energy in-energy out devices to shame.
Dumb question from an ignoramus...is there any dampening effect on the rudder movement as boat speed increases?
On my autohelm, there is a damping effect as the boat accelerates. At low speed, the rudder movement is large in comparison to high speeds where the rudder movement tapers off. This is because the higher the speed, the less rudder input is required. It's linear, so the amount of input is variable right across the speed range.
Does a Fleming work like this? I understand how they work, but not the fine detail.
Thanks!
SB
Edit: If I understand what Gary is referencing, a variable sheeting position increases/decreases the reaction time, but not the amount of throw, is that right?
Yes it does. As boat speed increases the boat needs less rudder to achieve a larger course change. At speed the tiller doesn't move much at all.
Having said that, in the bigger seas that go with the high winds, especially with a quartering sea, the boat yaws a lot more so tends to move a lot relative to the wind. On occasion the vane will really yank the tiller over to get back to its course relative to the wind. The loads on the vane and its lines can be quite high and, even with the best lines, they stretch and require adjustment.
This video of my Fleming on another S&S34 illustrates.
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
The leader up til now, Philippe Peche is headed for cape Town because his Beaufort windvane is unrepairable.
This is the same vane that failed on Amil Amra's boat only 2 weeks into the race.
Not good for the brand image!
goldengloberace.com/philippe-peche-heads-for-cape-town/
The main problem Peche has is the tiller broke. If he kept the boats original tiller instead of fabricating a SS one he would have been OK. I think he carried a spare but that failed as well.
Select to expand quoteshaggybaxter said..
I am utterly fascinated with windvanes. A non electrical powered auto helm that's reliable and efficient enough to put other energy in-energy out devices to shame.
Dumb question from an ignoramus...is there any dampening effect on the rudder movement as boat speed increases?
On my autohelm, there is a damping effect as the boat accelerates. At low speed, the rudder movement is large in comparison to high speeds where the rudder movement tapers off. This is because the higher the speed, the less rudder input is required. It's linear, so the amount of input is variable right across the speed range.
Does a Fleming work like this? I understand how they work, but not the fine detail.
Thanks!
SB
Edit: If I understand what Gary is referencing, a variable sheeting position increases/decreases the reaction time, but not the amount of throw, is that right?
Windvane steerings biggest downfall is with boats that accelerate fast like yours and catamarans. The relative wind change as boats jump onto the plane does not suit a vane.
Windvanes with bevel gears have an automatic feedback where as the Z crank types need some experimental feed back work. The windblade itself on modern windvane is on an axis that is canted back at about 15 degrees. They are often referred to as horizontal servo windvanes but the axis is actually at between 15 and 20 degrees depending on the brand.
When the blade is on a horizontal axis the blade will generate the same power all the way over to 45 degrees either side of the vertical position. This is undesirable and causes over steering. With about 15 degrees axis the blade develops less power as it reaches 45 degrees of deflection. With bevel gears the oar is being altered immediately the blade leans over and the boat is being brought back on course. When the boat is travelling at about 5 knots the angle applied to the oar is probably only a couple of degrees, this is all it takes to force the oar over and correct the tiller. Watching the oar in a breeze the movement is hardly noticeable. Not sure if the system would suit boats doing 15 to 18 knots.
As a side note I was at Bunnings in Warrawong the other day. They have poly carbonate 8mm sheets there. Same stuff Monitor and Fleming etc use for blades. $21 sheet would be enough for 3 blades.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..shaggybaxter said..
I am utterly fascinated with windvanes. A non electrical powered auto helm that's reliable and efficient enough to put other energy in-energy out devices to shame.
Dumb question from an ignoramus...is there any dampening effect on the rudder movement as boat speed increases?
On my autohelm, there is a damping effect as the boat accelerates. At low speed, the rudder movement is large in comparison to high speeds where the rudder movement tapers off. This is because the higher the speed, the less rudder input is required. It's linear, so the amount of input is variable right across the speed range.
Does a Fleming work like this? I understand how they work, but not the fine detail.
Thanks!
SB
Edit: If I understand what Gary is referencing, a variable sheeting position increases/decreases the reaction time, but not the amount of throw, is that right?
Windvane steerings biggest downfall is with boats that accelerate fast like yours and catamarans. The relative wind change as boats jump onto the plane does not suit a vane.
Windvanes with bevel gears have an automatic feedback where as the Z crank types need some experimental feed back work. The windblade itself on modern windvane is on an axis that is canted back at about 15 degrees. They are often referred to as horizontal servo windvanes but the axis is actually at between 15 and 20 degrees depending on the brand.
When the blade is on a horizontal axis the blade will generate the same power all the way over to 45 degrees either side of the vertical position. This is undesirable and causes over steering. With about 15 degrees axis the blade develops less power as it reaches 45 degrees of deflection. With bevel gears the oar is being altered immediately the blade leans over and the boat is being brought back on course. When the boat is travelling at about 5 knots the angle applied to the oar is probably only a couple of degrees, this is all it takes to force the oar over and correct the tiller. Watching the oar in a breeze the movement is hardly noticeable. Not sure if the system would suit boats doing 15 to 18 knots.
As a side note I was at Bunnings in Warrawong the other day. They have poly carbonate 8mm sheets there. Same stuff Monitor and Fleming etc use for blades. $21 sheet would be enough for 3 blades.
I like your detailed explanation on the vane operation.
Good advice on the poly carbonate too. I've been using 5mm marine ply. It is a bit heavy and reduces sensitivity.
Are Wiig has been rolled 360 while hove too in heavy seas and been dismasted. He has NOT activated his EPIRB and is NOT in distress. He has not asked for any assistance. Full details in the next hour. #GGR2018
From Facebook this morning.
Photo stolen from Facebook. Curious to find out what part of the Monitor vane broke.
Select to expand quoteMorningBird said..shaggybaxter said..
I am utterly fascinated with windvanes. A non electrical powered auto helm that's reliable and efficient enough to put other energy in-energy out devices to shame.
Dumb question from an ignoramus...is there any dampening effect on the rudder movement as boat speed increases?
On my autohelm, there is a damping effect as the boat accelerates. At low speed, the rudder movement is large in comparison to high speeds where the rudder movement tapers off. This is because the higher the speed, the less rudder input is required. It's linear, so the amount of input is variable right across the speed range.
Does a Fleming work like this? I understand how they work, but not the fine detail.
Thanks!
SB
Edit: If I understand what Gary is referencing, a variable sheeting position increases/decreases the reaction time, but not the amount of throw, is that right?
Yes it does. As boat speed increases the boat needs less rudder to achieve a larger course change. At speed the tiller doesn't move much at all.
Having said that, in the bigger seas that go with the high winds, especially with a quartering sea, the boat yaws a lot more so tends to move a lot relative to the wind. On occasion the vane will really yank the tiller over to get back to its course relative to the wind. The loads on the vane and its lines can be quite high and, even with the best lines, they stretch and require adjustment.
This video of my Fleming on another S&S34 illustrates.
The other cool thing that seems to be going on is that when the boats rocks, the wind paddle sways back to provide secondary assistance in course correcting.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
As a side note I was at Bunnings in Warrawong the other day. They have poly carbonate 8mm sheets there. Same stuff Monitor and Fleming etc use for blades. $21 sheet would be enough for 3 blades.
Funny that this is exactly where I sourced my poly carbonate. Couldn't find it in Melbourne.
A
A wind blade that is too light can cause sensitivity problems if it is being over counterbalanced.
It will have a reluctance to move from the vertical until the vessel moves far enough off course and the air flow over the vane achieves a greater angle of attack.
I have been able to vastly improve that situation by adding streamers to the top of the vane that tend to help drag the blade over as the vessel starts to move of course. The streamers add very little weight but can apply a large force and their length can be trimmed to achieve the best performance.
A well constructed blade in the shape of an symmetrical airfoil would probably work well as it would provide more lift at a smaller angle of attack, I'm yet to get around to making one. My old Navik vane has a symmetrical foil and that vane is super sensitive.
Tightness in the gears or mechanism also produces sensitivity problems
Select to expand quoteJolene said..
A wind blade that is too light can cause sensitivity problems if it is being over counterbalanced.
It will have a reluctance to move from the vertical until the vessel moves far enough off course and the air flow over the vane achieves a greater angle of attack.
I have been able to vastly improve that situation by adding streamers to the top of the vane that tend to help drag the blade over as the vessel starts to move of course. The streamers add very little weight but can apply a large force and their length can be trimmed to achieve the best performance.
A well constructed blade in the shape of an symmetrical airfoil would probably work well as it would provide more lift at a smaller angle of attack, I'm yet to get around to making one. My old Navik vane has a symmetrical foil and that vane is super sensitive.
Tightness in the gears or mechanism also produces sensitivity problems
Just adjust the lead weight up and sideways as needed to get the balance right. Use a counterweight for the control rod if needed. Dead flat blades are best. I have never seen a shaped blade and there is a good reason for that.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..Jolene said..
A wind blade that is too light can cause sensitivity problems if it is being over counterbalanced.
It will have a reluctance to move from the vertical until the vessel moves far enough off course and the air flow over the vane achieves a greater angle of attack.
I have been able to vastly improve that situation by adding streamers to the top of the vane that tend to help drag the blade over as the vessel starts to move of course. The streamers add very little weight but can apply a large force and their length can be trimmed to achieve the best performance.
A well constructed blade in the shape of an symmetrical airfoil would probably work well as it would provide more lift at a smaller angle of attack, I'm yet to get around to making one. My old Navik vane has a symmetrical foil and that vane is super sensitive.
Tightness in the gears or mechanism also produces sensitivity problems
Just adjust the lead weight up and sideways as needed to get the balance right. Use a counterweight for the control rod if needed. Dead flat blades are best. I have never seen a shaped blade and there is a good reason for that.
Mine improved quite a bit after making an airfoil section vane.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..Jolene said..
A wind blade that is too light can cause sensitivity problems if it is being over counterbalanced.
It will have a reluctance to move from the vertical until the vessel moves far enough off course and the air flow over the vane achieves a greater angle of attack.
I have been able to vastly improve that situation by adding streamers to the top of the vane that tend to help drag the blade over as the vessel starts to move of course. The streamers add very little weight but can apply a large force and their length can be trimmed to achieve the best performance.
A well constructed blade in the shape of an symmetrical airfoil would probably work well as it would provide more lift at a smaller angle of attack, I'm yet to get around to making one. My old Navik vane has a symmetrical foil and that vane is super sensitive.
Tightness in the gears or mechanism also produces sensitivity problems
Just adjust the lead weight up and sideways as needed to get the balance right. Use a counterweight for the control rod if needed. Dead flat blades are best. I have never seen a shaped blade and there is a good reason for that.
I'm unable to adjust the counter weight easily and I prefer it to be slightly over counterbalanced,,, adding the streamer greatly increases the sensitivity in light air and its simple put in place and remove
Select to expand quoteRamona said..Jolene said..
A wind blade that is too light can cause sensitivity problems if it is being over counterbalanced.
It will have a reluctance to move from the vertical until the vessel moves far enough off course and the air flow over the vane achieves a greater angle of attack.
I have been able to vastly improve that situation by adding streamers to the top of the vane that tend to help drag the blade over as the vessel starts to move of course. The streamers add very little weight but can apply a large force and their length can be trimmed to achieve the best performance.
A well constructed blade in the shape of an symmetrical airfoil would probably work well as it would provide more lift at a smaller angle of attack, I'm yet to get around to making one. My old Navik vane has a symmetrical foil and that vane is super sensitive.
Tightness in the gears or mechanism also produces sensitivity problems
Just adjust the lead weight up and sideways as needed to get the balance right. Use a counterweight for the control rod if needed. Dead flat blades are best. I have never seen a shaped blade and there is a good reason for that.
whats the reason they shouldnt be foils ?
The air blade is to sense the difference of air pressure on each side. Your not looking for lift or to increase the speed of the air over the surface.
Select to expand quoteRamona said..
The air blade is to sense the difference of air pressure on each side. Your not looking for lift or to increase the speed of the air over the surface.
And the difference in pressure on each side of the blade will result in lift, the pressure difference is created by changing the blades angle of attack to the air flow,, the sense is what provides the movement. By making it an airfoil you increase the amount of sense or lift and by doing that it makes the vane more sensitive.
I would think that the reason manufactures tend not to use foils is that:
They aren't that necessary to make the vane work and they add to the expense.
Facebook.
"SADLY Francesco Cappelletti - Golden Globe 2018 has suffered a complete failure of his Beaufort windvane the same as Nabil Amra and PRB - Philippe P?ch? He cannot fix it. We are about to talk to him on the Satphone and will post the GGR Soundcloud conversation as soon as we have it."
Another Beaufort bites the dust! Not sure what the failures are. Suspect failure of the welds. Looking at photos of the units the welds are Tig and very neat. Very attractive but may have some undercutting which reduced the strength. For vital units like this I would prefer arc welding SS and not be too fussy about making it pretty for yachtsmen.
Select to expand quoteFrom Facebook. Might be an interesting day out for Tasmanians.
Are you coming to HOBART? Jean Luc Vandenheede may arrive about the 3rd OCTOBER! The BOATSHED Hobart film drop is hosted by the Royal Yacht Club of Tasmania and the #GGR2018 team will be there to meet all entrants. This time they STOP for at least 90 minutes chatting to family friends and supporters. Let us know if you are coming, watch the tracker for final times and follow the LIVE coverage here. The Gate is OFF KINGSTON BEACH so you can see them! or come out in a boat and say HI!.. Pic RYCT Club house...an amazing club established in 1880. Thanks to Commodore Tracey Mathews, sailing master Nick Hutton and all club members for supporting the Golden Globe Race.
Interesting lazy jack system in the photo posted by Ramona on Saturday.
Triangular tangs(?) where the jacks attach to the booms.
Gary
Select to expand quotegarymalmgren said..
Interesting lazy jack system in the photo posted by Ramona on Saturday.
Triangular tangs(?) where the jacks attach to the booms.
Gary
Bit of bolt rope in the sail track. The rope would be full length of the track. Sails are loose footed. Pretty much how my lazy jacks work but in this case the sail cover is reduced to small triangles. The sails are exposed to sunlight for about 8 months anyway but there is just enough material there to control the sails when reefed.
