Paddle Imua results

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paul.j said..
yeah, i see it differently and feel racing the big races is no place for protos, by making it ok just keeps the sport elitest. We are not bike racing or sail GP we are a small bubble sport that needs as many people to feel as special as possible to keep the growth going forward. Look at what happened to sports like SUP surfing when the gear gets too extreme for the average person it just dies out without the continued growth of those people who just don't really care.

I'm not saying you can't race your proto as well but if you do you just can't win the main race, money will come soon as will a tour of some sort, and all these things are better sorted now rather than later when its a mess. I just feel the closer we can keep the racing the better for all, let the skill of a rider be the difference not the wallet of a company. Development wont stop just by making the top riders ride what the company sells but it might make more people think about racing as they get better.

Personally, the result means very little to me knowing the top ten were on something no one else could get and besides being impressed by the speed of the winner I will have well forgotten this result by the time they release the wing to the common folk.

On the prone DW, I don't really think there is much of a sport racing future. Cool novelty and cool for looking a little different to everyone else but just the logistics would be enough to kill any real racing future IMO, I have been wrong before so maybe I will again but in this case I doubt it.

Paul,

I've felt very similar to your point in the wing world tour. Guys are sponsored by X company, and show up with specialist race foils from someone else as their sponsored brand isn't competitive. Same as domestic wing nationals, brands showing up with custom protos nobody will ever see.
Agree that this could take a sailing path with handicap system or different classes, unlimited - allowing whatever foils you want. Then full production classes ect.

Would be much more enjoyable to see.

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tightlines said..
I was watching what I could and have followed this race for years. It is a great race for sure and I only wish I was younger, richer and more skilled so I could have a crack, but it does look like all the kaos with boats at the start could easily make or break it for some.
I believe some of the boats couldn't find there Foiler until the end Surely they could come up with a better way of managing it.
I don't know how exactly but maybe something like have the boats wait at a line a few kms down from the Foiler start line and they can only go when their Foiler has crossed that line so at least the Foilers get a few kms without boat wash to sort themselves out a little bit.

Or I don't know, does anyone have any ideas?
I'm sure competitors must have as a lot complained about the boats
Everyone had trackers so does every competitor really require their own escort boat?
maybe if every competitor had to have the tracker plus a PLB and or a flare or vhf radio or something and a handful of boats do a sweep at the rear of the pack or something.

Also re proning it, I personally don't think it would ever be quicker.
Good on them if they are quicker though, then they wouldn't really need their own class.

Apparently the boats are a big talking point this year. They are A) Super expensive ie. 1500USD per rider and 2) They cause a lot of havoc with their wakes.

M2M does not have mandatory boat per rider so the number of boats is not really an issue.

Safety-wise and back-up wise having a boat is gold, they can carry extra liquids, gels and in the case of some of the top guys, seasoned old dogs giving good advice regarding the best line to take + media coverage.

Back in the day (and probably still) they had a 30minute rule stating boats could only approach their rider 30minutes after the start and had to stay South of all riders until then. It was chaos when the boats came in to find their riders but it was a relatively short-lived pain, as the SUP field spread out quite quickly. But foils are going twice as fast as SUP's so there would be more wake.

From a safety point of view I think the boats are kind of mute with todays technology. Each rider had a Dot-vision tracker and if it was mandatory to have a second back-up tracker with emergency button then that would surely suffice. Having said that, the year I did the M2O about half the field got picked up by the boats due to fatigue or breakdowns as the conditions sucked - if that were to happen it would be quite something for a handful of organiser boats to pick up 50-100 riders and their gear...... 50+kms is a long way.

Wrt foils, we knew all along it would be a race to the bottom, as in smallest, most costly gear, and for an event like M2O I personally think people should be able to bring the latest, greatest and let it filter into production next year. You can leave the standardized gear to the Olympics and the like. Personally I will probably never ever be riding what those guys are riding. The smallest foil I've ever downwinded is an 1100 and the thought of trying to do it on a 600 is frightening - but I'm hoping some of the foil improvements will filter into the sizes that I use as well.

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paul.j said..
The results from proto foils will still filter through to production whether they are raced or not.
As far as the best advertisement for a brand you can get I would disagree and as a brand owner I could think of nothing worse than a rider I sponsor winning on a product I could not supply for another year, god just imagine all the people wanting that wing only to be told to wait and then in the mean time other brands catch up and beat them to market. Happens all the time and I just feel like what a waste and why not just hold it back until you have production sorted or at least have it so importers can order it. Hey maybe more than likely I have it wrong and why i can't see it really profitable to continue making front wings while these other brands are making millions ??

I always like to look at things not from a personal perspective and more what's maybe good for a sport and people overall as if it was just for me maybe I would suggest other ways but this only helps me and no one cares about that to much.

Letting the best in the world, race on the best gear possible, creates hype which in turn creates demand. How you meet that demand is the challenge foil companies need to master. If some companies are making millions (unlikely) then they clearly have it figured out.

The biggest problem with the sport of foiling is that it's a really hard sport to learn, for all but the most gifted, and most determined. If you want to do something good for the sport and people overall, then we should focus on making foiling easier to do, and that has nothing to do with what the guys are using on the M2O.

All good points but I'm still all for the proto , you need to look at people like Armie Armstrong he grew up with all the NZ Americas Cup designers and crew. He is in his 50's and just charging in the races. There is no way you want to restrict what he & his team riders race as this filters back directly & feeds us punters very quickly with the hottest new gear in a very short time frame. Axis & Code are other companies with every fast farm to fork R&D wise lets not hold these guys back.

Back to the prone , gone are the days when Dave Kalama could rock up to a race in 50's and take it out which he did many times. This years M2O had teenagers beating seasoned world class athletes in their late 20's & 30's. The bar just has'nt been raised it gone up by an extension ladder. If you don't think a prone would be faster now how about put a nuclear-powered 18-year-old on a 5-6 x 17" x 30 litre proneboard, don't tell me that's not going to be faster than a Sup he can stand on.

Re the boats I did my first M20 in 1990 in an 9 man crew 6 seat outrigger (OC6) , we would change paddlers very 20 mins so boat wash is always an issue but there was an etiquette rule you tried not to wake the other crews. The difference here is we were only doing 10 to 15 kph . With the bulk of the field averaging 20 to 30 kph in the Sup foil it's very easy for a support boat to be left behind in rough conditions so they are constantly pushing hard with big wakes to keep up. Paddlers should have support boats and they need to be at least within a reasonable distance to support the riders. Having one boat supporting multiple competitors is useless , it's just not possible . Pretty well every support boat is fishing boat and put out a punishing wake carrying 5 or 6 passengers & sometimes more . The support boat is also your eyes watching the rest of the field seeing who has the best line , running out wide or in close etc. Another reason for them to stay close to you to communicate. So for safety and tactical reasons you want your support boat close by and yes some skippers may deliberately wake other competitors from a distance but that's all part of the race , want to avoid that be up front......Unfortunately, I can't see any of that changing, it's always been an issue it's now foils really do get knocked around by wakes so it's time to train and get used to it. Complaining about it in HI will only fall on deaf ears.

Maybe I'm just different, I look at it more like what about the kid with all the talent but not lucky enough to ride the cool kids stuff we could miss out on so much talent and so many future champs just because they don't have the luck to ride gear no one else can get.
For sure no one wants to stall development but I also want to see crazy tight racing that also includes complete unknowns in the mix.

Right now if I was going get into DW foil racing I would not know what to buy. Axis really just released the ART pro range not that long ago but thier top placed rider used a proto so no point getting a Art Pro, Code the top guys were 12mins behind on production 680 foils which are fast but if you wanted to take it series you would be thinking maybe they might have to bring something else out now. Lift might be the best bet if it's true Andrew got 3rd on stock foils. Signature did well but unsure if that foil is available. Kind of confusing hey for someone wanting to give it a good crack. Definitely talent and pumping is a huge part of it and just having the best foil won't make you a winner but it will sure help.

Happy to prove my point if someone would like to invest a few million into a stupid project that will have no return? Haha

If Andrew was on stock gear then that is sick??

Armie and all the other brands won't slow development just because they can't let their top guys race the proto if anything it would push them harder so they can get the best gear to production so they can rock up at the race with it and have 20 guys and girls on it and get way better promotion when some random wins that paid for his gear. As I say maybe I'm just different in my thinking.

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paul.j said..
Maybe I'm just different, I look at it more like what about the kid with all the talent but not lucky enough to ride the cool kids stuff we could miss out on so much talent and so many future champs just because they don't have the luck to ride gear no one else can get.
For sure no one wants to stall development but I also want to see crazy tight racing that also includes complete unknowns in the mix.

Right now if I was going get into DW foil racing I would not know what to buy. Axis really just released the ART pro range not that long ago but thier top placed rider used a proto so no point getting a Art Pro, Code the top guys were 12mins behind on production 680 foils which are fast but if you wanted to take it series you would be thinking maybe they might have to bring something else out now. Lift might be the best bet if it's true Andrew got 3rd on stock foils. Signature did well but unsure if that foil is available. Kind of confusing hey for someone wanting to give it a good crack. Definitely talent and pumping is a huge part of it and just having the best foil won't make you a winner but it will sure help.

Happy to prove my point if someone would like to invest a few million into a stupid project that will have no return? Haha

If Andrew was on stock gear then that is sick??

Armie and all the other brands won't slow development just because they can't let their top guys race the proto if anything it would push them harder so they can get the best gear to production so they can rock up at the race with it and have 20 guys and girls on it and get way better promotion when some random wins that paid for his gear. As I say maybe I'm just different in my thinking.

Agree, prototypes foils should be only for R&D and racing should be on production gear, that would make more sense for everybody. At the end, the best will always be at the front anyway.

now doubt as time goes on the peeps wanting standardising of foils - even if that means production foils must only be used will inevitably happen. As humans we love to control and compartmentalise.

Still in the wild west of development - enjoy the freedom whilst you can I say. Let these wild crew foil iwith whatever the hell they feel like.

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PeterP said..

frenchfoiler said..

paul.j said..
Maybe I'm just different, I look at it more like what about the kid with all the talent but not lucky enough to ride the cool kids stuff we could miss out on so much talent and so many future champs just because they don't have the luck to ride gear no one else can get.
For sure no one wants to stall development but I also want to see crazy tight racing that also includes complete unknowns in the mix.

Right now if I was going get into DW foil racing I would not know what to buy. Axis really just released the ART pro range not that long ago but thier top placed rider used a proto so no point getting a Art Pro, Code the top guys were 12mins behind on production 680 foils which are fast but if you wanted to take it series you would be thinking maybe they might have to bring something else out now. Lift might be the best bet if it's true Andrew got 3rd on stock foils. Signature did well but unsure if that foil is available. Kind of confusing hey for someone wanting to give it a good crack. Definitely talent and pumping is a huge part of it and just having the best foil won't make you a winner but it will sure help.

Happy to prove my point if someone would like to invest a few million into a stupid project that will have no return? Haha

If Andrew was on stock gear then that is sick??

Armie and all the other brands won't slow development just because they can't let their top guys race the proto if anything it would push them harder so they can get the best gear to production so they can rock up at the race with it and have 20 guys and girls on it and get way better promotion when some random wins that paid for his gear. As I say maybe I'm just different in my thinking.

Agree, prototypes foils should be only for R&D and racing should be on production gear, that would make more sense for everybody. At the end, the best will always be at the front anyway.

We could also extend that to boards? No custom shapes, must be min. quantity of 250 units certified by factory before you are allowed to use them in racing? Nahhh...I say, bring what you got.

Foiling is limited in how crazy the arms race can go, and 95% is the rider anyway.

Never understood the need to regulate sonething that is supposed to be fun. But this is all to do with nothing, as the Hawaiians would'nt consider it for a second.

I agree. Why limit the evolution of the sport? Its not like one foil company has patented tech that nobody else can use that puts them on a different playing field. Everyone is trying to move quickly to evolve the product and get their riders on the podium. Imposing a bunch of arbitrary rules would be a big barrier to entry for upstart manufactures (Code, AFS, etc...) who are already scraping by to put good product in the market. The fast pace of R&D is healthy for the sport and improves the gear for all of us.

Look at cycling for an example of an industry that imposes too many rules to the detriment of the sport. The UCI dictates minute (and often irrelevant) details related to the specs of the bikes and equipment to the point where they limit the SOCKS that riders can wear. R&D becomes an exercise in finding loopholes and gray areas in the rule book versus actually improving the equipment within practical parameters. It becomes very expensive and time consuming to get gear UCI approved - money that would be better spent towards actual R&D. The racers need to ride bikes that are commercially available, leading to the manufacturers putting $50k bikes on the market just to satisfy the rule. Practical rules are important, but it can get out of hand to the point of being counterproductive. I think downwind foiling is very healthy and imposing rigid rules on the equipment at this stage doesn't help anyone.

How do you know the Fone is not production coming out in a couple months? Finn & Jeffery Spencer and all the Duotone riders are on production foils & boards which are out in September. if you want more info on it and to pre order speak to your local Duotone dealer

Agreed on the course. M2m had a harder pump in than m2o had this year. The m2o course was changed prematurely in my opinion. The riders weren't good enough at the sport to realize what they were asking for.
It was less interesting this year. Still fun. But the leaders got in the lead and stayed there. M2o finishes previously were exciting due to lead changes from foil choice strategy that the old course called for.

Also the top 20 or more are all pros so why shouldn't they be on prototypes to push foil design. I'm sure there could be an amateur fleet where you have to ride production available at time of event but the open should be unrestricted to push development. and for sure brands and buyers want to know that gear has been validated by competing against the best gear available before it is released

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kobo said..
Anyone know what foil Aiden Nichols was riding in the wing section ? Whatever is was it was quick , he finished a fair way ahead of the rest.

No i asked him but no reply as yet ? probably a prototype front wing and tail - bahahahahahhaha

what's your guess ? Mine is a 580ha with a 140 dart blue shim. Maybe a 70 fuse.

Haha maybe I am just wrong in my thinking, can happen not very often though, haha

So I guess the only way to win a foil race in the future will be to either be sponsored of a company with a big wallet or to have a super big wallet yourself, not sure how this will have an effect on those smaller companies like the Codes and AFS as once the real money flows in and the designers come with big dollars it could have the opposite effect of what many are talking about.

All just good talk anyway as I have no interest in pushing any rules nor do I have the time these days it was just from my experience in these sports that I can see it going down a tricky route.
I will just buy the fastest or best surfing foil I want and stay in my bubble??

Jacko said:- So I guess the only way to win a foil race in the future will be to either be sponsored of a company with a big wallet or to have a super big wallet yourself, not sure how this will have an effect on those smaller companies like the Codes and AFS as once the real money flows in and the designers come with big dollars it could have the opposite effect of what many are talking about.

Not necessarily remember when Puma got into the Sup racing game with an unlimited budget & teamed up with Laird to make this lemon. So money is not the only solution. It's companies like what Code did last year winning or placing in every event on debut made everyone open their eyes and broaden their spectrum on design which obviously showed in this years M20. Just imagine whats going on in the background now with all the foil companies design wise after this triple crown event I'm switching back to a mast with an Axis head so I can use stringer adapters which will also let me use Code , F-one , Takuma/AFS , Lift & who knows what else. This is going to be an insane year for foil development , I'm frothing.... Hard finish for Johnny what a bummer he was flying , that's racing.

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said..

kobo said..
Anyone know what foil Aiden Nichols was riding in the wing section ? Whatever is was it was quick , he finished a fair way ahead of the rest.

No i asked him but no reply as yet ? probably a prototype front wing and tail - bahahahahahhaha

what's your guess ? Mine is a 580ha with a 140 dart blue shim. Maybe a 70 fuse.

DWP 685 /140/70 red shim