Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Front foot pressure, how do I get it?

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Created by Stretchy > 9 months ago, 28 Dec 2019
Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
28 Dec 2019 8:43PM
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I'm a newby foiler using a Starboard Supercruiser on a Starboard Formula 186. I've had 6 or 7 outings now at Koombana Bay and today at Busselton. Conditions ranging from under done on a 7m to overdone (18kts) on a 6m.
My usual problem is a gust comes through and the foil comes up steadily and although I can feel it happening, it is a battle to hold it down, with breaches sometimes resulting. To combat this I have moved mast foot forward, lowered boom height, bring back foot forward, avoid over-sheeting (thanks Noel) and more recently adjust the stab (thanks Steve).
All of these things have helped to reduce my skywards launches, however I hear/read a lot about front foot pressure, yet I don't feel I have any ability to control ride height through my front foot. Instead, I keep the nose down more by leaning my body forward and pushing down on the boom. In contrast, when I'm trying to keep the nose up I apply strong back foot pressure.
i feel I have a technique issue. Any tips anyone?

LeeD
3939 posts
28 Dec 2019 9:45PM
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Try bending front knee, which is opposite from windsurfing.
Also, try staying on your toes with back foot, so front foot takes your weight.

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
28 Dec 2019 9:49PM
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That makes sense, thanks Lee

remery
WA, 2562 posts
28 Dec 2019 10:46PM
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I'm experiencing similar adjustments, I had the mast forward to keep the nose down but found myself all twisted and leaning forward. After watching Heliboy999's latest video I moved the mast back and the boom up and felt much more comfortable. (I'm on a Naish 122 / Thrust)

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
28 Dec 2019 11:03PM
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Thanks Rob, I'll check it out. Got a link?

Grantmac
2020 posts
29 Dec 2019 1:21AM
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Track all the way back, boom at wave/freestyle height, long lines and keep the rig upright. Control height by moving the mast forward.

Consider ditching straps or placing foot inboard of them. Slight bend in front knee can work like riding a modern multifin upwind.

thedoor
2245 posts
29 Dec 2019 3:40AM
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I think it is more difficult to really weight the front foot when you have outboard straps, as the board will turn. Since switching from my wizard 105 to the freestyle 115 with very inboard straps, I find I can heavily weight the front foot and am much better able to avoid overfoiling and breaching

PatK
299 posts
29 Dec 2019 7:15AM
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The old formula 186 has mastfoot box too much in front and straps too far outside for the supercruiser i think. Had the chance to try this foil with sb foil x 145 and it felt well balanced with the short nose. Your formula board would be better with the sb race foil.

29 Dec 2019 7:20AM
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Hi Stretchy

The 186L formula board is a good platform to start with for the foiling and you will improve every day your out and get the hang of it. I'm not sure if you attempting to use the back straps yet? Or just placing your foot in front of them and a bit inboard. I would leave the back strap off the board.
The front strap is ok, but as mentioned, if this position is more inside on the board , then it is a lot easier to control and get that front foot pressure. You could consider to get a few inboard foot strap inserts installed.

I can lent you my Wizard 125L , and at least you can get the feeling what the different strap position do to the trim and balance.
Cheers
Jesper

Subsonic
WA, 3061 posts
29 Dec 2019 7:48AM
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I get a similar feel on the foil to you Stretchy. What im finding is i have to adjust my stance to an upright one so my weight stays over the board


Im so used to pushing out off the side of the board on my slalom kit that i end up doing it on the big foil board, not helped by the straps being right outboard on that too. Being out off the side of the board works ok if you've got the board heeled over to windward, not so much if its cruising at a flatter angle to you. It'll end up getting lifted higher and higher and your weight (front foot pressure) isn't there to stop it.
shorter lines/inboard straps will help. As others said the formula board is pretty wide for a super cruiser foil, possibly a bit too much outboard leverage.
My problem is i keep getting back on the slapper gear for a period of time and re adopt my slalom stance. Then i get on the foil again: back to square one.

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
29 Dec 2019 10:11AM
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Some great tips here guys, gold actually and very much appreciated. My key takeaways are: bend ze front leg, Keep mast position back, install inboard footstrap inserts. I am using the front strap, but not the back, putting my foot between the strap and fin box. This has the effect of turning my body more towards the front of the board , which is probably also making it difficult to weight the front leg. I might try foiling with front foot out of strap too, but at the moment I like the security and side to side control it gives me.
love to try your Wizard some time Jesper.
thanks again

Bender
WA, 2223 posts
29 Dec 2019 10:38AM
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Stretch I'll be at K bay this arvo. You should take my kit for a spin. it will be so much easier to use.


remery
WA, 2562 posts
29 Dec 2019 12:32PM
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Here you go Stretch. Right near the end he shows some video of his setup and stance before and after. I think my biggest improvement was when I stopped trying to drive the thing and stood on top of it, sheeted out and relaxed.

Ian K
WA, 4048 posts
29 Dec 2019 1:30PM
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Stretchy said..
I keep the nose down more by leaning my body forward and pushing down on the boom.

The position of your body weight is all that matters in keeping the nose down. If your centre of mass remains in the same place all pushing with the front foot does is take weight from the mast base and back foot.

(This is for steady state of course, you can push with the front foot against your inertia for a fraction of a second to get the nose down, but then the equal and opposite reaction is to push your body weight aft. When you run out of push the nose will come back up again with interest. Or you could fiddle with sail sheeting, that will apply fore and aft leverage one way or the other. No wonder I crash so often, it's not easy)

remery
WA, 2562 posts
29 Dec 2019 3:26PM
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I'm getting better at doing the hip-rocking thing but there is a lot of finesse required.

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
29 Dec 2019 5:22PM
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Bender said..
Stretch I'll be at K bay this arvo. You should take my kit for a spin. it will be so much easier to use.



Thanks Ben. I went slapping this arvo. Hope to catch up another time

Bender
WA, 2223 posts
29 Dec 2019 7:30PM
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No worries mate. Today at K Bay was epic. Infinity76 with a 4.0m sail. Flying into gybes feeling the G's




boardsurfr
WA, 2292 posts
29 Dec 2019 10:02PM
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Interesting point you make about the forward body position making it harder to get weight on the front leg. Moving straps inboard should definitely help that. One of the best freeride foilers I've seen was on a formula board with straps moved inside (described at www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34421).

I think there are also foil-specific differences. The Slingshot i84 is quite easy to control when they start moving up. With a couple of the older Slingshot front wings, I had a much harder time. That may (partly?) be a trim issue, since the older wings have the COE further forward.

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Stretchy said..
In contrast, when I'm trying to keep the nose up I apply strong back foot pressure.

That's an indication that your stance may be a bit unbalanced (too backfoot heavy). That definitely makes control harder. For a long time, Nina has had an easier time controlling her foil than I; I always wanted to believe that's partly because she is used to a more even stance from freestyling, combined with a more balanced setup, rather than just being a faster learner . When I moved my foil forward 5 cm, it definitely helped. You probably can't move the foil, so you'd have to move your feet back on the board. Seems counter-intuitive, but I think it is easier to change weight distribution to the front leg if you are starting from a more balanced position.

Searoamer
NSW, 288 posts
31 Dec 2019 10:24AM
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Front hand undergrip, and closer to mast, really adds extra mastfoot pressure to keep nose down - thanks to Sam Ross for his tips on adjusting ride height via front hand grip/position changes

ZakK
QLD, 28 posts
31 Dec 2019 10:50AM
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Sail rigging is also very important, tighter leach required so that when gust hit, board drives forward and slightly downward. Sail trimming is critical in foiling stronger winds and going fast in strong gusts, how do the Pros handle 8.0 + sizes in 20knts plus winds ? ..

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
31 Dec 2019 10:26AM
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Yes, I've started doing this and it does help. I've also found myself putting my back hand too far back, so I make myself put my back hand so it's Touching the harness line (which are moved forward)

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Peter Hands said..
Front hand undergrip, and closer to mast, really adds extra mastfoot pressure to keep nose down - thanks to Sam Ross for his tips on adjusting ride height via front hand grip/position changes

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
31 Dec 2019 10:28AM
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ZakK said..
Sail rigging is also very important, tighter leach required so that when gust hit, board drives forward and slightly downward. Sail trimming is critical in foiling stronger winds and going fast in strong gusts, how do the Pros handle 8.0 + sizes in 20knts plus winds ? ..


Now I'm foiling I really appreciate how challenging that is, even if on a completely different style of foil

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
31 Dec 2019 10:35AM
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boardsurfr said..
Interesting point you make about the forward body position making it harder to get weight on the front leg. Moving straps inboard should definitely help that. One of the best freeride foilers I've seen was on a formula board with straps moved inside (described at www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34421).

I think there are also foil-specific differences. The Slingshot i84 is quite easy to control when they start moving up. With a couple of the older Slingshot front wings, I had a much harder time. That may (partly?) be a trim issue, since the older wings have the COE further forward.


Stretchy said..
In contrast, when I'm trying to keep the nose up I apply strong back foot pressure.


That's an indication that your stance may be a bit unbalanced (too backfoot heavy). That definitely makes control harder. For a long time, Nina has had an easier time controlling her foil than I; I always wanted to believe that's partly because she is used to a more even stance from freestyling, combined with a more balanced setup, rather than just being a faster learner . When I moved my foil forward 5 cm, it definitely helped. You probably can't move the foil, so you'd have to move your feet back on the board. Seems counter-intuitive, but I think it is easier to change weight distribution to the front leg if you are starting from a more balanced position.


Thanks Peter. By strong back foot pressure, I was talking about when I'm underdone or getting up on the foil initially, it's not a constant thing. What I was illustrating is that when I want lift, I can feel myself weighting my back foot, but when I want less lift, I can't really feel the weight on my front foot. Some great tips provided here to address my issue, which I hope to put in practice soon - well after Cervantes ??

IWB
210 posts
31 Dec 2019 2:05PM
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Stretchy, if u get a chance give the starboard Gtr or race foils a try on your current formula board as you will find your board / strap combo will feel much better suited and balanced. The riding style with the race and free race foils will allow you to put both back and front foot into straps and lean out and forward on the harness lines and feel that weight more on the front foot. If you normally windsurf Freeride blasting, freerace, or race the transitioning to the Freerace or race starboard foils is in some ways more natural and easy.

The starboard supercruiser is a great foil but a totally different foiling feel compared to the Starboard GT/gtr/race foils.... and IMO feels best suited where strap positions are more inboard which a formula board does not typically offer. For sure the formula board can be used with the supercruiser however you will most likely be riding with feet out of straps and standing much more inboard with rear foot closer to the centerline. . The supercruiser foil riding technique will have you standing with a much more upright stance, so much that you can easily ride without a harness or in harness lines. Starboard have released 2 new foilboards 145x and 105x which compliment the supercruiser type of foil more so. On the supercruiser foil you can set the front wing on the outer 2 hole setting on the fuselage to gain a bit more lift and front foot pressure. Try having the mast track center to slightly back.

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
1 Jan 2020 11:17AM
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IWB said..
Stretchy, if u get a chance give the starboard Gtr or race foils a try on your current formula board as you will find your board / strap combo will feel much better suited and balanced. The riding style with the race and free race foils will allow you to put both back and front foot into straps and lean out and forward on the harness lines and feel that weight more on the front foot. If you normally windsurf Freeride blasting, freerace, or race the transitioning to the Freerace or race starboard foils is in some ways more natural and easy.

The starboard supercruiser is a great foil but a totally different foiling feel compared to the Starboard GT/gtr/race foils.... and IMO feels best suited where strap positions are more inboard which a formula board does not typically offer. For sure the formula board can be used with the supercruiser however you will most likely be riding with feet out of straps and standing much more inboard with rear foot closer to the centerline. . The supercruiser foil riding technique will have you standing with a much more upright stance, so much that you can easily ride without a harness or in harness lines. Starboard have released 2 new foilboards 145x and 105x which compliment the supercruiser type of foil more so. On the supercruiser foil you can set the front wing on the outer 2 hole setting on the fuselage to gain a bit more lift and front foot pressure. Try having the mast track center to slightly back.


Hi IWB, yes I'm more of a freeride blaster, so I think you're right that the GT style foil may suit my riding stance more. For now I just want to cruise around in low winds, so I'll move the straps inboard. If I want a speed rush I'll get on my slapper. Of course my attitude may change once my skill levels improve. Cheers Rob

IWB
210 posts
1 Jan 2020 7:55PM
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Select to expand quote
Stretchy said..

IWB said..
Stretchy, if u get a chance give the starboard Gtr or race foils a try on your current formula board as you will find your board / strap combo will feel much better suited and balanced. The riding style with the race and free race foils will allow you to put both back and front foot into straps and lean out and forward on the harness lines and feel that weight more on the front foot. If you normally windsurf Freeride blasting, freerace, or race the transitioning to the Freerace or race starboard foils is in some ways more natural and easy.

The starboard supercruiser is a great foil but a totally different foiling feel compared to the Starboard GT/gtr/race foils.... and IMO feels best suited where strap positions are more inboard which a formula board does not typically offer. For sure the formula board can be used with the supercruiser however you will most likely be riding with feet out of straps and standing much more inboard with rear foot closer to the centerline. . The supercruiser foil riding technique will have you standing with a much more upright stance, so much that you can easily ride without a harness or in harness lines. Starboard have released 2 new foilboards 145x and 105x which compliment the supercruiser type of foil more so. On the supercruiser foil you can set the front wing on the outer 2 hole setting on the fuselage to gain a bit more lift and front foot pressure. Try having the mast track center to slightly back.



Hi IWB, yes I'm more of a freeride blaster, so I think you're right that the GT style foil may suit my riding stance more. For now I just want to cruise around in low winds, so I'll move the straps inboard. If I want a speed rush I'll get on my slapper. Of course my attitude may change once my skill levels improve. Cheers Rob


The starboard Freeride/GT /Gtr and race all allow you to cruise around in light winds just like the supercruiser. Don't be put off by the race aspect as you still can ride slow. The race foil which uses the 115 fuselage will allow you to foil in the lightest of winds when using the 1000 front wing. This is the most powerful foil setup and offers the best upwind angles. The GT is a very easy foil to use, not as powerful as the race foil setup but still fun and the ability to cruise around and less intimidating if first starting out. The GT was my first foil and foiling around on day one in underpowered conditions using the starboard ultrasonic which is around 96cm wide. This combo allowed me to use my harness lines and both front and rear footstraps with no issues as the riding style is very similar to regular windsurfing, with some minor tweaks to body and weight positioning. Combining a board/foil/ combo which compliments each other will making the initial foiling pretty straight forward.
It is very possible that you would have to put in custom straps on your board as the formula board strap position is too close to the rails when using the supercruiser foil. In your case with the formula board/ supercruiser I can see that riding strapless is best to gain the best foot position on the board which will be very inboard.
What sail sizes are you using and what is your largest sail?

Stretchy
WA, 938 posts
1 Jan 2020 9:47PM
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Thanks IWB. For now I've invested my $$$$ in the Supercruiser so I'll put in inboard footstraps. I've been using either 6 or 7m camless to date, but yesterday ended up changing down to 5m

WhiteofHeart
762 posts
2 Jan 2020 5:09AM
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There's many factors and different techniques. In racing I have both legs straight 99% of the time, independent of windstrength, and am even more comfortable with my backfoot in the backstrap in high than low wind. Freeriding I bend through the frontleg a lot. Both require different trims.

First, in a quick and dirty manner of speaking, your foiltrim is 'correct' when you can keep flying with your front foot in the strap and your backfoot at least 2/3rd back inbetween the straps. My setups keep flying when I put my backfoot next to the frontstrap! Having the foils' power forward is paramount in stability, and trying to learn the right technique is impossible if you foils' power is too far back. If you cant pull your backfoot out of the strap and put it about halfway between the straps without landing you have to do some trimming before you continue. (Moving the foil forward, increasing angle on the stab etc.) Take about where I put my foot in this jibe as a reference: www.instagram.com/p/B0tWz4DgpsW/?igshid=1ws1sc0dogcdb

Personally I'm not a big fan of "the front wing should be center between your feet" quick and dirty way of trimming. In the kit on the video my front wing is 8cm behind the frontstrap, so that would be over 3/4th! I run somewhere between 2/3rd and 3/4th forward between the straps on my freeride setups aswell. This to be able to put my weight over the foil, increasing balance tremendously (maybe after a short adjustment period)

Fter you have that sorted, there's 2 general techniques:
The first one requires a longer distance between the mastfoot and the foil, as you keep the nose down through mastfoot preassure. By pushing the sail forward and away from you you distribute your weight between your legs and the mastfoot by hanging your weight from the boom. This works very well for flying in a straight line and getting the upwind angles.
If you want to have a more manouvre oriented style move the sail back all the way and boom up, you'll be able to sail more upright and really distribute the weight more over your legs, and have pretty much no weight hanging down from the boom.
The first technique is easier on racing equipment with the straps outboard, the latter is easier with more manouvre oriented straps and maybe even (partly) strapless. Learning the second technique properly is also key for the foiling duckjibe for example, as in the duckjibe you have no way to preassure the mastfoot to stabilize rideheight.

One thing which matters a great deal in control and is paramount for both styles is sailtrim and harnessline positioning. I disagree with thightening the leech to increase acceleration. The less twist you have the less acceleration and the more power you'll feel in the sail. I advice learners to always trim their sail as normal!! Regular sails need the open leech to work properly, as thats the way the sail is designed!! It has its shape thought out by the sail designers, and generally you shouldnt go too far of the way it is supposed to be set. A more open leech will make the sail feel a lot softer in the gusts and accelerate better. A leech which is too thight might bring you out of balance in the gusts because it is very jerky.
Second, the harness lines have to be dead center. When on the foil try sailing with no hands. If the sail falls forward move your lines forward, if it falls backward move them back. For the foil I trim my lines down to the mm and am able to sail over 20 seconds with no hands. I put my lines all the way together, but thats a personal preference, when i started foiling I had them a handwidth apart, but i feel I have more control and faster response to gusts when they are closer together. Simply put, how far they are apart determines your room of error, but also the responsiveness of your sail to gusts by a great deal!

berowne
NSW, 1273 posts
2 Jan 2020 9:15PM
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remery said..
I'm experiencing similar adjustments, I had the mast forward to keep the nose down but found myself all twisted and leaning forward. After watching Heliboy999's latest video I moved the mast back and the boom up and felt much more comfortable. (I'm on a Naish 122 / Thrust)



Exactly!
I was suffering like this at first... now I'm riding a race foil 1000 AFS with a 10.0 on the deck, and the mast track at the BACK (130cm mark).!!!

When I started fooling, I tried the mast all the way forward, extensions on the foot straps to move them forward etc etc.... all WRONG.
Move the mast to where you ride slalom style (slapper?), move the harness lines BACK to where you ride them slalom style...
Build up some speed, lift the foil, and use the BACK HAND to push the nose down. This can be scary, who wants MORE power when the nose is lifting, but commiting can help.

Sheeting in and using the sail pressure to push the nose down is the best way I have found. (Works on race/cammed sails I haven't tried on RAF but think it should be the same).

Also, if you are riding too high... Tilt the foil (to windward unless going deep off the wind), as a foil on an angle has less up lift!

Stability is king, but the wind is unstable, so ride as stable as you can, and when you can't, make sudden, abrupt changes with your feet. If I'm too high upwind I'll use rail pressure to angle the board (or toe pressure with back foot on the centre line if sailing deep off the wind). It might only take one pulse to change the ride hight/angle. This works if you are too low, pulse the front foot down, and the extra drive of the foil will lift you back up (sheet in and lean the mast back too).

Time on the water helps too!

berowne
NSW, 1273 posts
2 Jan 2020 9:21PM
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WhiteofHeart said..
There's many factors and different techniques. In racing I have both legs straight 99% of the time, independent of windstrength, and am even more comfortable with my backfoot in the backstrap in high than low wind. Freeriding I bend through the frontleg a lot. Both require different trims.

First, in a quick and dirty manner of speaking, your foiltrim is 'correct' when you can keep flying with your front foot in the strap and your backfoot at least 2/3rd back inbetween the straps. My setups keep flying when I put my backfoot next to the frontstrap! Having the foils' power forward is paramount in stability, and trying to learn the right technique is impossible if you foils' power is too far back. If you cant pull your backfoot out of the strap and put it about halfway between the straps without landing you have to do some trimming before you continue. (Moving the foil forward, increasing angle on the stab etc.) Take about where I put my foot in this jibe as a reference: www.instagram.com/p/B0tWz4DgpsW/?igshid=1ws1sc0dogcdb

Personally I'm not a big fan of "the front wing should be center between your feet" quick and dirty way of trimming. In the kit on the video my front wing is 8cm behind the frontstrap, so that would be over 3/4th! I run somewhere between 2/3rd and 3/4th forward between the straps on my freeride setups aswell. This to be able to put my weight over the foil, increasing balance tremendously (maybe after a short adjustment period)

Fter you have that sorted, there's 2 general techniques:
The first one requires a longer distance between the mastfoot and the foil, as you keep the nose down through mastfoot preassure. By pushing the sail forward and away from you you distribute your weight between your legs and the mastfoot by hanging your weight from the boom. This works very well for flying in a straight line and getting the upwind angles.
If you want to have a more manouvre oriented style move the sail back all the way and boom up, you'll be able to sail more upright and really distribute the weight more over your legs, and have pretty much no weight hanging down from the boom.
The first technique is easier on racing equipment with the straps outboard, the latter is easier with more manouvre oriented straps and maybe even (partly) strapless. Learning the second technique properly is also key for the foiling duckjibe for example, as in the duckjibe you have no way to preassure the mastfoot to stabilize rideheight.

One thing which matters a great deal in control and is paramount for both styles is sailtrim and harnessline positioning. I disagree with thightening the leech to increase acceleration. The less twist you have the less acceleration and the more power you'll feel in the sail. I advice learners to always trim their sail as normal!! Regular sails need the open leech to work properly, as thats the way the sail is designed!! It has its shape thought out by the sail designers, and generally you shouldnt go too far of the way it is supposed to be set. A more open leech will make the sail feel a lot softer in the gusts and accelerate better. A leech which is too thight might bring you out of balance in the gusts because it is very jerky.
Second, the harness lines have to be dead center. When on the foil try sailing with no hands. If the sail falls forward move your lines forward, if it falls backward move them back. For the foil I trim my lines down to the mm and am able to sail over 20 seconds with no hands. I put my lines all the way together, but thats a personal preference, when i started foiling I had them a handwidth apart, but i feel I have more control and faster response to gusts when they are closer together. Simply put, how far they are apart determines your room of error, but also the responsiveness of your sail to gusts by a great deal!


Good tips on the harness lines, I might try that too, thanks!
and great gybe on insta :)

Paducah
2517 posts
2 Jan 2020 9:55PM
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Slightly off-topic but how do you keep from backwinding the sail at that low wind speed?



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"Front foot pressure, how do I get it?" started by Stretchy