Windsurfing Foiling 2018

If I may bring up a practical question from and average Joe consumer who is shopping around for a hydrofoil. How long will it take me to enjoy hydrofoiling after I buy Naish? I have watched a promotional video from Robby Naish going very easy on his foil at 6-10 knots wind with 5 m sail without harness. Should I expect to experience the same if I buy from Robby Naish? If so, would someone point me on a video of someone average Joe windsurfer opens Naish shipping box and goes foiling first time in his life? I have found several youtube videos of people just started foiling and you can easy find them too. These day 1,2,3,.. videos are published by consumers, not by the foil manufacturers. Will I experience similar hardship to learn as these consumers show on their videos? The reason I am asking is that misleading advertisement is illegal. For example, when I see Ford F-150 commercial I expect similar experience when I buy Ford F-150 and I go have the same experience. When I see Naish, JP, ..., and other foil promotional videos I am expecting to experience the same right after I opened the box and use the product. But videos from consumers reporting day1,2,...month1,... tell me that I will not experience the same as Robby Naish is telling me, while trying to sale me his product.
The reason I am bringing this up is because I have just received a notification from my subscription of frpgear youtube channel about a new video. I think frpgear is the only hydrofoil manufacturer in the world who honestly published day 1 and day2 use of its hydrofoil by an average inexperienced windsurfer. Now I can realistically assume my first day experience on frpgear new hydrofoil at very light wind as shown on the video.
If to go back to our argument about being more or less of an engineer, I have to notice that Naish and Co have failed to engineer a hydrofoil for a typical light wind situation showed on frpgear video. If to do more search Naish and co attempted but failed to engineer a semifoiling fin similar to frpgear flyfin. Comparing the video from Naish and Co vs the video from frpgear I feel like Naish is trying to make me buy illegally misleading me on the use of its product, while frpgear honestly shows me somebody like me and probably not as good as me on all the realistic videos.
In addition to this argument I would like to ask if someone can tell from frpgear video if it looks like it may be easier for me to start with frpgear foiling technology compare to the traditional foiling technology. Just to clarify for not engineers. FRPgear foiling technology has both lift generating foils: the front and the rear for advantage in light wind. It is dynamically unstable from engineering prospective (but looks stable enough on the video). The traditional foiling technology uses dynamic stabilization for easy ride (not sure how easy it is) - the stabilizer generates negative lift. It is dynamically stable as we can see from Robby Naish using it but not an average Joe windsurfer videos.

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You're a weird due XYZ...

What petermac33 says is basically bang on the money.

In that video it's actually pretty windy, I'd reckon ~12+kts, listen to the sound and look at the umbrellas. It's offshore so it doesn't look that windy. Consider; the bloke on that foil is doing an ustable ~10kts max, any one of the race foils from the current manufacturers would be doing ~ 22kts+ in the same conditions in a very stable fasion. Since you're such a fan of engineering that should tell you all you need to know.

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seanhogan said..
slowest and most unstable foil flight I have ever seen !!!
not to mention how uggly the blessed thing is !

Indeed, the real life differs from an advertisement video. This is why I would like foil manufacturers to present day 1 of inexperienced surfer on their product like frpgear does it. I agree that frpgear may not have experienced riders available so they use inexperienced riders. For me, a prospective customer, there is more value in these first Day videos because the first day video shows someone like myself trying the product for the first time. All the first day video looks ugly, slow and unstable. Here is an example of a video about first day on NF foil.

When I look at both first day experiences on frpgear foil and on NP foil I conclude that frpgear foil is safer and more stable compare to NP foil. I know that you can find a nice looking video of an experienced rider on NP foil. But we do not know yet if frpgear could be just as good or better if we attached similar experience to it. But from the two first days videos frpgear ride looks more attractive for me to buy because frpgear flight looks like A380 in small turbulence while NP looks like F16 lost control.
I assume your uggly comment it referring to frpgear prototype on the picture. Perhaps your are assuming that the production foils will look similar. I am sure you are mistaken because it says 140 cm span, which is obviously specifically made for experiments. It would be prohibitively expensive to make and ship such of a large foil. We just need to wait to see how frpgear reduces its concept into the final product.
From engineering prospective I see one important advantage in frpgear concept. It does not have any bolted connections under water, which means it can be made more compact for less drag.
As an engineer I would also like to comment on the speed. When you say "slowest you have ever seen" it is a compliment, while you attempted to devalue. If it was a regular windsurfer you could criticize it for being slow because a windsurfer does not need speed to stay on water. Hydrofoil is opposite. Hydrofoil needs speed in order to stay in flight. The faster it goes the easier it gets to stay in flight. I have noticed it as well. frpgear second day video slow a slow flight. (look at there first day video for more speed). I think your have been impressed by the slow speed but you made an incorrect conclusion. You slogan indicates your negativity towards frpgear probably because you seems to have a predetermined opinion about frpgear for a reason you are not telling. But for an engineer like myself without prejudge the conclusion from the video would be: "I have never seen a hydrofoil that can fly at such of low speed. Amazing!"
About the wind speed. I think it is a good idea frpgear is using to demonstrate light wing - show umbrellas. I think some well set beach tents can hold 12 knots wind. But not all the dozens of umbrellas on the beach shown. Even if it was just periodic 12 knot wind gusts all the umbrellas on the beach would be blown away periodically. But we see all the umbrellas well in order all around. My engineering estimate for the wind condition is 2-10 knots. Offshore wind is always very unstable. You can see how sometimes the foil does not take off. My safe bet is that frpgear hydrofoil prototype goes in flight at 7 knots wind.

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petermac33 said..
"Robbie Naish Windsurf foiling with a 5m sail in 6-10 knots" - unlikely from my experience of watching windsurf hydrofoils.

Around 10 knots would be needed with only a 5m,possibly more. With swells pushing you a long perhaps less.

Hydrofoil kites are still king in the super light 6-10 knot range. I watched a few the other day with what looked like relatively small kites planing in seriously nothing - guessing around the 6-10 knot range. I was amazed.

Same day 65kg Sean on his 6.2m hydrofoil windsurfer could not get going and it took him an hour to grovel back to his car.

With Hydrofoil kites the wind is stronger up high and their sails provide more lift being situated above the sailor.

Hydrofoil windsurfing still offers a huge improvement in planing threshold.

I can get pretty close to matching the kites for bottom end but no way when I'm on the gear I was on the day pete was talking about which was actually my 5.6 and small speed wing on my foil
To get me up and belting around with the kites in 6 to 10 knots I use a 10.0m and 80cm front wing on my foil

There appears to be a bit of twisting of reality when it comes to the Naish foil marketing stuff

XYZ while you maybe preaching to the converted, when trying to hilite the major company's marketing BS.
your focus on frp gear tends to taint your comments as biased.

from reading your last posts I would expect your best course is to buy a Naish foil, fail at foiling under 10kts with a 5m sail then sue them.

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RAL INN said..
your focus on frp gear tends to taint your comments as biased.

I am absolutely biased towards to anyone who refunds 100% of my money it I am not completely satisfied with my purchase.

Going back to engineering argument. Does anyone know if any of over 100 foil manufacturers provide basic hydrodynamic characteristics like Cy, Cx vs angle of attack in order to let consumers to accurately compare the performance? Correct - nobody does it, while everyone is pretending to be the best. Instead they publish videos with someone I will never become and call it 5 knots with 5 m sail. Apparently, some people think they tell you the real facts.

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XYZ said..

RAL INN said..
your focus on frp gear tends to taint your comments as biased.

I am absolutely biased towards to anyone who refunds 100% of my money it I am not completely satisfied with my purchase.

Going back to engineering argument. Does anyone know if any of over 100 foil manufacturers provide basic hydrodynamic characteristics like Cy, Cx vs angle of attack in order to let consumers to accurately compare the performance? Correct - nobody does it, while everyone is pretending to be the best. Instead they publish videos with someone I will never become and call it 5 knots with 5 m sail. Apparently, some people think they tell you the real facts.

I can't work out if you're a sophisticated troll or...just different. If any of these companies actually have hydrodynamic data as if they are going to publish it, it's I.P. You would be literally the only person who would buy a foil based upon this information, and that's assuming you actually know what you're looking at and looking for. Starboard and NP, and I use those two as they are the biggest in this game and have the most resources, would have tested hundreds of iterations of wings to reach their current production race foils. Whoever is pushing this FRP thing hasn't got a hope of getting close to the performance, it's just not realistic. As an aside if you can't see what's wrong with that design and why it will never compete with the current market leaders, I don't really know what else to say.

If you are actually serious about getting a foil go to a come and try day like Wind Surf and Snow ran in Sydney last summer. They had most of the big name foils ready and rigged on the beach for you to have a go on, no questions asked. This is the best way to find out what you like and even if this sport is for you. Given you only just tried a harness after 40 years....I'm sure I saw that somewhere, I'm honestly not sure it is?

Never tried a foil......but if Robby Naish can really get going in 6-10 knots with a 4.7m I'll buy one asap

I little exaggeration is understandable but that does seem a little over the top

From my limited experience of watching hydrofoils - kites get going way,way earlier.

Average weight,highly skilled Hydrofoil windsurfers start to plane in around 9-10 knots or around 2 knots earlier than a standard windsurfer. Hydrofoil kites plane at least 2 knots earlier than a hydrofoil windsurfer,probably around 7-8 knots.

Here's a video I took on my first day foiling, this was my fifth reach on the thing. I was on a friend's 135L board with an LP foil and a 5.5 in probably 15 knots. I had done some kitefoiling prior to this and watched a few foiling tutorials before getting on the water. While it's not particularly difficult I feel I am not a whole lot more efficient than with a fin, but I tend to ride small sails and medium foils.

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XYZ said..

petermac33 said..
Average weight,highly skilled Hydrofoil windsurfers start to plane in around 9-10 knots or around 2 knots earlier than a standard windsurfer. Hydrofoil kites plane at least 2 knots earlier than a hydrofoil windsurfer,probably around 7-8 knots.

Absolutely agree. I have noticed the same. And, engineering calculations deliver the same conclusion - Need min 10 knots wind to fly on 1000 cm foil, 100 kg total weight, 5m sail, without pumping.
True about the kites particularly for the high aspect ratio design. But these are some 20 sq. m. in size and operate at higher wind speed that you cannot measure.
To goargesailor: May I ask you to share with everyone what personal experience you have had with frpgear? It is because you appear to be trolling against them?

And may i ask you XYZ, what sailing experience you have with "normal" setup foils (naish foils in particular).

And where exactly did you get your engineering degree, and what specifically do you have an engineering degree in?

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XYZ said..

after watching Naish "light find foiling explained" my first impression was "this is it." But when I looked into I have discovered that all the foil manufacturers report impossible to achieve results.

Companies aren't exaggerating. After almost a year of practice (multiple times a week), me (86kg, 192cm), an avarage windsurfer, planing jibes, 33kts gps max on slalomgear, speedloop, but nothing too extreme, can fly with a 4.8 in 10kts gusts and keep flying below that. Ofcourse some things remain impossible, and the foil I use for racing/lightwind is one which I can keep in the air for some time by pumping even without a sail. Ofcourse in those minimal winds i do more often rig an 8.6 just for the extra power, but I've found out I can fly with really minimal sailsize.

At the defi I've seen philipe canari do a backloop with a 4.0 swart sail on his tiny when people with 9.6m slalomsails couldn't even get planing.

It does however take a lot of practice/ technique to get this kind of performance out of windfoiling kit, and ofcourse a foil which is meant for these kind of winds (like the horue, or my foil of preference the Lok?foil LK1 1200). In the Netherlands and france almost nobody uses the naish, so I couldn't comment on that. If you try to get this kind of light wind performance out of a Pryde for example you wouldn't make it, primairily because the pryde isn't meant for this kind of thing.

As for the FRPgear. I've tested I think 12 different foils extensively and own 5. The FRPgear isn't a hydrofoil, it's a planingassistant, and I believe it works, I just don't see the benefit over buying a full foil for 800? (mantafoils, pryde alu or the new Zulu race which is really beautiful).

I'm not sponsored by any of the foilbrands mentioned above, different ones even..

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XYZ said..

Subsonic said..
And may i ask you XYZ, what sailing experience you have with "normal" setup foils (naish foils in particular).
And where exactly did you get your engineering degree, and what specifically do you have an engineering degree in?

I did not have a pleasure to try Naish foils yet. as I said before I am shopping around for a solution to increase my time on water during the summer in particular when winds are light in my area. after watching Naish "light find foiling explained" my first impression was "this is it." But when I looked into I have discovered that all the foil manufacturers report impossible to achieve results. without an option to return their foils. The reason I brought up frpgear is because the allow returns and this is the reason why they are honest in their claims on product performance.

I have earned Ph.D. in engineering from the top world school and worked in aerospace for several global companies for over 30 years. And you...?

Yep. FRP guy. Designed some aerospace doodads and suddenly a windsurfing expert. btw, XYZ, are you regularly using harness yet or do you still have irrational homophobic issues?

"Thank you everyone for the harness suggestion. Yesterday I borrowed harness on my spot to try. ... Sometimes women on the spot talk to me about how I could ride without harness. When I used the harness yesterday a man came talk to me."

FRP come out with a new design every six months when it becomes blindingly obvious the previous iteration sucked. Finally watched his video - I think Sean's comments are an understatement. Any foiler watching is smacking his/her forehead.

God bless Jim Drake. Paid his dues before reminding everyone he was an engineer (and actually it was Starboard who did most of that).

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WhiteofHeart said..

like the horue, or my foil of preference the Lok?foil LK1 1200). In the Netherlands and france almost nobody uses the naish,

This is exactly what I have concluded. I am sure these manufacturers in France use engineering principals. You do not need to be an advanced engineer in order to tell that LK or horue foils deliver much better lift/drag ratio compare to Naish foils. I particularly admire forward swept LK1200, which increases critical angle of attack. Such of wing needs to have a very high torsion stiffness in order to prevent flatter. I absolutely agree that it is possible to fly a good foil like these from Europe at lighter wind as long as you can manage to accelerate fast enough to take off. The you have very small drag and enough lift. Pumping is probably the way to get in flight. US foils like Naish are very poor aerodynamic design with low lift/drag. This is why, as an aerospace engineer, I do not believe when Naish tells me it can fly at 10 knots 5 m sail as shown on Naish video.
Did you try MW Sails? The reason I am asking is because you would want to have a higher efficiency sail like MW. MW has a higher aspect ratio and better asymmetric profile. With regular sail you are not taking full advantage of the good foil you use. With your traditional sail you are probably going 1.6 times faster than wind speed. With MW sail you should go 2 times faster than wind speed. MW sail has two benefits that traditional sails do not: high aspect ratio for reduction of induced drag and different length of the air travel (longer travel distance for air on the convex side).
I do not see $800 prices from frpgear. It looks to be more like 400. But they say I can get a test sample for 200 when they have them. From my engineering prospective hydrofoil is more advanced compare to frpgear fly-fin if designed correctly. The only problem with an advanced foil is getting in flight. More efficient foil should be more difficult to get in flight. Also, foil needs to be deep for high efficiency. Frpgear fly-fin seems to be delivering better results in light wind as I can see on the video below. With MW sail frpgear fin will definitely do even better for even lighter wind. It works similar to a good LK1200 foil. Sail becomes a problem when frp or LK want you go faster. On frp videos I notice better acceleration - no need for pumping. Customer report better frp acceleration on other European forums. I am just thinking if somebody can combine frp easy acceleration with a good foil like LK1200 so I can get in flight in light wind without pumping. Since engineers are still scratching their heads, perhaps, gorgesailor already has a design solution.

Well that makes me want to rush out and buy one

Ya know, xyz, when you don't downhaul your sail properly, I'm not going to be listening real hard to the rest of what you have to say about how much Robby Naish is an idiot. The rest of the video is painful, too, in so many ways I can't even mention. Best of luck in your future endeavors.