Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..
The smaller foil is significantly better when the wind is up.
Engineers learn this at school.
Lift= .5 * dencity of air * coefficient of lify * wing area * (speed)^2. If you double wing area lift doubles. If you double speed lift increases in 4 times. The same with drag. Light wind foil generates significantly more drag at higher speed. This is why it is better to get a smaller wing to fly at 10 knots instead of large wing to fly at 9 knots. Naish wings are bad for the same reason.
I have ordered a smaller 80 cm span, 500 sq.cm area from frp because this reason. Will update upon arrival of my frp fly-foiling package.
Look at the three videos of frp testing starting with extra large wing (slow speed) and the last video with some but smaller wing (still large). Light wind flight cost you speed at strong wind.
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..Subsonic said..
The smaller foil is significantly better when the wind is up.
Engineers learn this at school.
Lift= .5 * dencity of air * coefficient of lify * wing area * (speed)^2. If you double wing area lift doubles. If you double speed lift increases in 4 times. The same with drag. Light wind foil generates significantly more drag at higher speed. This is why it is better to get a smaller wing to fly at 10 knots instead of large wing to fly at 9 knots. Naish wings are bad for the same reason.
I have ordered a smaller 80 cm span, 500 sq.cm area from frp because this reason. Will update upon arrival of my frp fly-foiling package.
Look at the three videos of frp testing starting with extra large wing (slow speed) and the last video with some but smaller wing (still large). Light wind flight cost you speed at strong wind.
P.S. Biplane design may be as good as the best in the history of aviation if it has been lead by engineering experts (not the expert pilots)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-2
www.flyer.co.uk/replacement-antonov-an-2-biplane-lifts-record-weight/
I frankly don't understand why this forum allows blatant commercials from people like XYZ. Is he the same person marketing the Wingsails? The strategy seems the same: ridiculous claims, bad mouthing pretty much anybody who has been developing windsurfing gear for the last three decades, posting ridiculous videos demonstrating nothing (other than 5' seconds long flight at speed that can be beaten by a SUP), claiming to purchase items that most likely he is actually producing ...
Really: can somebody stop these posts? For a while it was entertaining, now It is getting exceedingly annoying.
Select to expand quoteSubsonic said..
Few of the foilers in WA have the f4 foil, which comes with the two different size lift foils. From what theyve told me, The smaller foil is significantly better when the wind is up.
apparently they've dropped the smaller lift foil for the latest edition though 
Thanks. Thinking a 650 won't be worth the extra euros. I wish something around 750-800 was the second wing. When the wind comes up, I like to play on the water.
Naish Hydrofoil user posted a video of take off and going without cuts. Someone here has already explained how promotional videos are made: take hrs of footage and cut a few minutes to mislead consumers. Someone here has suggested to frpgear to invest into "professionally cut" videos instead of providing raw footage as is.
let's get a detailed look at this row footage of Naish foil in use.
1. Find the frame rate. Use comma or period button to click frame by frame and note the time changing on the video. This video is 30 frames per second.
2. Find the length of the board. The publisher conveniently provided the link to Naish website
www.naishsails.com/product/hover-windsurf-122/
the boards is 229 cm long
3. Count how many clicks ("," or ".") it takes to travel one length of the board. Use an air bubble on water surface as a reference. 11 clicks (frames) for 229 cm board to travel its distance. It is the same 10 clicks before the take off and in flight -the same speed.
4. Calculate the board speed . Travel (2.29m) / time (11/30 sec) = 6.25 m/sec =12 knots
Naish foil take off speed is 12 knots for a skinny 70 kg guy on the video. You can probably do better when you get some experience and do some pumping. But still 12 knots take off speed is very bad. Compare to 8 knots speed on frpgear takeoff row footage with the same size guy.
Another bad thing with of Naish foil is that it does not accelerate after it separates from water. It is obvious from the video, but you can do 1,2,3,4 steps to verify. Yes, it is very exciting to get in flight. But it is only for the first time. Then you want to take the full advantage of hydrofoil low drag that results in acceleration after take off. It is similar to getting on planing. Unfortunately, Naish foils do not deliver well desired acceleration. The reason for this is low aspect ratio of Naish wings that results in high drag. But it makes it more stable.
Now I would like to ask experienced windsurfers here. What wind speed do you need in order to move the board on the video (5m sail) with speed of 12 knots? let me make my unexperienced guess on this. At 12 knots wind this board will not get on planing under 5 m sail even without Naish 15 lb draggy hydrofoil with mounting plate attached to it. It means it will take over 12 knots of wind to move this boards at hydrofoil take off speed of 12 knots. When it get on the foil you cannot close the sale and accelerate at light wind because of too much of drag. If you close the sale as you should the whole system will stall. You need much stronger wind to close sail on Naish foil - Naish has a video of this.
Have to see good hydrofoils to understand the beuty of foiling. Do not look at Naish. Look at the leaders. You may have seen it on kites because kite foils are smaller and less drag lets it accelerate more. When a good foil gets in flight it starts to accelerate and the sail is closed and it accelerates more and the board goes twice as fast compare to the takeoff speed.
From engineering prospective, if to consider just the performance, Naish hydrofoil are like clearwaterfoils.com because both designs deliver similar results.
Poor performance of Naish is probably the main reason why Naish is not popular. Most of the videos of Naish are not from real consumers, but from Naish affiliates. Naish is currently a looser in hydrofoiling. Based on Naish 2018 model lineup Naish will remain a looser. Good foil do not use trolling. Naish is using trolling here. Trolling means criticizing others without presenting material facts. For example, one of Naish trolls even did a background check on frpgear and brought it up here. Here is my explanation of Naish attack on frp. Naish did not pretend to be the best in engineering of hydrofoils. Naish sale point was a low cost fiberglass/aluminum crap foil for an an average Joe windsurfer. Just some $600 and use it on any board with Naish mounting plate and easy to fly. Now frpgear stepped in with $500, full carbon/titanum easy to fly and set it on any board into existing finbox. Looks smooth and sexy. You do not need to be Naish to fly it. Any unexperienced windsurfer can easy fly frp, as we can see. And it can fly fast at wind conditions that Naish is steel dreaming to achieve. But the most devastating is that frpgear returns all your money if you did not like its product. In addition to all it is Made in the USA. Sorry Robby. I have to ask you. Have you been consulting with engineering experts on your hydrofoil design? Did it come as a surprise that you do not need to know how to windsurf in order to design a good hydrofoil? Perhaps, experienced windsurfers can give at least one example how windsurfing puts you in advantage as a hydrofoil designer.
Someone here has sarcastically asked me to report on performance of frpgear hydrofoil that I have recently purchased and waiting for delivery. It will be my pleasure to do so. I will make a video comparison between frpgear hydrofoil and Naish hydrofoil. I will keep the winner. and I will return the looser back to the manufacturer. FRpgear allows returns with nor questions asked. I am expecting Naish to do the same.
Aww c'mon, he's the new and improved Cosmic Charlie
This ones a ginger beer, they're almost as clever as an archiemetack.
Select to expand quoteelmo said..
Aww c'mon, he's the new and improved Cosmic Charlie
This ones a ginger beer, they're almost as clever as an archiemetack.
Obviously a lot of research went into that post.
Select to expand quoteRAL INN said..elmo said..
Aww c'mon, he's the new and improved Cosmic Charlie
This ones a ginger beer, they're almost as clever as an archiemetack.
Obviously a lot of research went into that post.
Seabreeze was the only forum to ever get the better of him, by being better at playing him at his own game, I've still got a couple of his alter ego's in my collection.
Kinda sad when he fell of the perch, a lot of forums got into trouble as half their membership (Brucies) stpped posting.
But now we have XYZ to keep us amused. KAAFA
The only way FRP (XYZ?) are ever going to sell foils is to line up against the best the rest have to offer, Naish, Pryde, Starboard etal and have a foil off. I mean I think we can all predict the result but money back guarantees aside (lawl) marketing is king and without that video all you have is unprofessionally filmed video of a very slow looking kooky foil. That's not how to sell something, regardless of how much more hydrodynamically optimal it is (lawl sarcasm italics) because you're average punter couldn't give two s*$# about lift to drag ratios.
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..
Blah Blah Blah
Hey more Garbage, what a surprise. Did you forget everybody knows you ARE FRPgear? You never bought anything from "them" because you are "them". Stop lying at least!
Select to expand quoteXYZ said..
Blah blah blah
Dude - you've really no idea what you're talking about.
You don't need to be planing to get up on the foil.
Practical experience beats your theoretical farts -
I foiled 54 km on a messy ocean yesterday on the Naish WS1 foil - 12 to 18 knot breeze, 4.7 wavesail. I'm 82kgs.
Top speed 20 knots - but speed is not what the WS1 foil is for - it excels at riding waves and swells, super loose and maneuverable.
I can assure you I wouldn't have bothered foiling 54 kms if the Naish foil is as crap as you so ignorantly theorise.
I paid full price for my Naish and additional kite and surf front wings. 60 sessions later I still love it - still heaps to learn.
Why don't you just STFU about Naish already - it's getting old
Not sure what the beef is with Naish foils but I agree it's getting old. I've used both 2018 and 2019 Naish foils.
This is was my second time on the 2019 Naish Hover 142 board (using the Thrust 70cm foil).
Select to expand quoteazymuth said..
XYZ said blah blah blah
Again, why all the Naish bashing? Did Robby refuse you an autograph in the past?
I don't know what to make of the video - a guy dragging a heap of seaweed avoiding the waves?
Nice Weimaraner
In an alternative universe: 1976 Windsurfing worlds. Some skinny kid yells starboard forcing an unknown Russian windsurfer to tack away. Kid goes on to win world championship while XYZ gets buried and finishes DFL in fleet. XYZ swears to get his revenge. "Some day. Some day, you little punk, I'll get even."
XYZ can you at least keep a consistent argument??? In previous posts you've been critical of the Naish not being able to fly below 14 knots. Responding videos and Naish foilers (of which I am one) experience has shown this to be false, and that they can actually be flow in 10-12 knots for a not so talented sailor such as me, or lower by more experienced foilers. Now you're changed your argument and are critical of "Naish affiliates" speaking up on the company's behalf. So the videos prove your statement to be false. Now you say you want videos that are not from Naish affiliates. Jeez mate - sook on! I'm not an affiliate - just a product user with experience both positive and negative. I saw the Naish video and as I have said before, it lead me to thinking I could do something SIMILAR to what Robby was doing on his board. The way I see it, is that the things that Naish have demonstrated show that the product is capable of doing what they say it can - ie get going in sub 10 knots. Now you're critical that only experts can get it going in super light conditions. It seems to me your argument is now that if you can't get the Naish foil to fly in sub 10 knots, then you want your money back. I can't get it going in sub 10 knots, but I can get it going with a much smaller sail and in much lighter winds than I can sail with conventional gear (2-3 knots less and 1-2m sail area less), and that was the take-home message for me. That was what Naish were trying to promote. Sail these foils in lighter conditions that would have you not planing with conventional gear. And that's what I'm getting and I'm having a blast. I'm not trading mine in or asking for money back as it's doing what they said it would - for me.
I don't think Naish can be held responsible if you're not talented enough, or too inexperienced to be able to sail the thing to it's full potential. In much the same way, you don't take a quad board back to the manufacturer and say "I can't do a double forward on this (because you're not talented enough) so I want my money back".
Maybe have a go of one of the Naish foils first and actually speak about the foils from experience rather than from videos that you've soured the net looking at and critiquing with very little idea about what the facts are.
Or keep banging on about how rubbish the Naish gear is and how good the frpgear is, and keep looking like a totally misinformed tool.
It's your reputation...
XYZ
Your foiling inexperience showed when you mentioned that I was foiling with open sail (which it wasn't)...but clearly you do not understand how to generate lift or foil upwind/down wind in light winds.
I ride and own a lot of different Foiling equipment. I also spend a lot of time on the water foiling, and experimenting with different combinations.
Lastly I enjoy communicating with foilers all over the world, sharing ideas, techniques and equipment with an open mind ... maybe you should do the same?
I think it's a shame that this topic has gone to **** this way.
please XYZ! Start your own Frp topic
Select to expand quoteRAL INN said..
I think it's a shame that this topic has gone to **** this way.
please XYZ! Start your own Frp topic
RAL a couple of shims could help, you choose where they should go.
Reading all XYZ's crap is like masturbating with a cheese grater......
Slightly amusing......
But mostly PAINFUL!!!
Select to expand quotewarwickl said..RAL INN said..
I think it's a shame that this topic has gone to **** this way.
please XYZ! Start your own Frp topic
RAL a couple of shims could help, you choose where they should go.
Warwickl there is a time and place for every shim.
some need inserting with a 3 row stainless wire brush.
the sad part would be having to bin the wire brush after a single use.
A quick foil video to lighten the mood
Forth time foiling. Was on a sb 162 and np aluminum (bluey)
drive.google.com/file/d/1oBF6ov63dwsvnjvNlABil9a3j_h1eT5R/view?usp=drivesdk
Still playing around with body weight placement and straps. I believe for that short clip I was reaching or going slightly down wind as my back foot was in the (single) chicken strap. Wish my board had a twin chicken strap setup like the sb 167s. Short harness lines helps too.
Select to expand quoteCAN17 said..
A quick foil video to lighten the mood
Forth time foiling. Was on a sb 162 and np aluminum (bluey)
drive.google.com/file/d/1oBF6ov63dwsvnjvNlABil9a3j_h1eT5R/view?usp=drivesdk
Still playing around with body weight placement and straps. I believe for that short clip I was reaching or going slightly down wind as my back foot was in the (single) chicken strap. Wish my board had a twin chicken strap setup like the sb 167s. Short harness lines helps too.
Looking good! If you lock out your rear leg, it can stabilize the flight
Select to expand quotewhitsun said..
Reading all XYZ's crap is like masturbating with a cheese grater......
Slightly amusing......
But mostly PAINFUL!!!
I tend to agree .He lost me a few times with his theory's. I think he's got the furniture up there but in the wrong rooms.
Select to expand quotemartyj4 said..
XYZ can you at least keep a consistent argument??? In previous posts you've been critical of the Naish not being able to fly below 14 knots. Responding videos and Naish foilers (of which I am one) experience has shown this to be false, and that they can actually be flow in 10-12 knots for a not so talented sailor such as me, or lower by more experienced foilers. Now you're changed your argument and are critical of "Naish affiliates" speaking up on the company's behalf. So the videos prove your statement to be false. Now you say you want videos that are not from Naish affiliates. Jeez mate - sook on! I'm not an affiliate - just a product user with experience both positive and negative. I saw the Naish video and as I have said before, it lead me to thinking I could do something SIMILAR to what Robby was doing on his board. The way I see it, is that the things that Naish have demonstrated show that the product is capable of doing what they say it can - ie get going in sub 10 knots. Now you're critical that only experts can get it going in super light conditions. It seems to me your argument is now that if you can't get the Naish foil to fly in sub 10 knots, then you want your money back. I can't get it going in sub 10 knots, but I can get it going with a much smaller sail and in much lighter winds than I can sail with conventional gear (2-3 knots less and 1-2m sail area less), and that was the take-home message for me. That was what Naish were trying to promote. Sail these foils in lighter conditions that would have you not planing with conventional gear. And that's what I'm getting and I'm having a blast. I'm not trading mine in or asking for money back as it's doing what they said it would - for me.
I don't think Naish can be held responsible if you're not talented enough, or too inexperienced to be able to sail the thing to it's full potential. In much the same way, you don't take a quad board back to the manufacturer and say "I can't do a double forward on this (because you're not talented enough) so I want my money back".
Maybe have a go of one of the Naish foils first and actually speak about the foils from experience rather than from videos that you've soured the net looking at and critiquing with very little idea about what the facts are.
Or keep banging on about how rubbish the Naish gear is and how good the frpgear is, and keep looking like a totally misinformed tool.
It's your reputation...
This is one out of 13 comments with relevant information. Thank you for supporting Naish foils discussion.
The other 12 comments are missing the subject matter but emotional that are irrelevant for intentions of an engineer like myself. Interesting to note that the current ratio 1 value added out of total 13 comments is typical for a common engineering meeting at work. Sorry for ignoring these 12 - just enjoy being next to the experts.
Please allow me to take the argument itemized:
- "you've been critical of the Naish not being able to fly below 14" - I assumed this is based on Naish video because the video shows 14 knots wind. If Naish showed a video foiling at 10 knots wind I would not question. But when Naish shows 14 knots wind telling me it was 6 knots wind I have questions.
- " can actually be flow in 10-12 knots for a not so talented sailor such as me" - Do you have a video 10-12 wind? 10-12 is a very consistent wind range. You got very lucky to have it. It must be in open ocean. So you say you are not good in foiling and you foil in open ocean?
- "critical of "Naish affiliates" " I am critical to Naish affiliates here because they are not giving me any relevant product information. They are making many short posts with a general guideline to criticize competitors of Naish. As a value added argument they could say: "Look at the windfinder data at the day Naish video was taken to see 6-10 knots wind recorded. No, Naish video keeps silence about the time and location of the video.
- "I'm not an affiliate - just a product user with experience both positive and negative." I would actually want to talk to Naish affiliate in order to get information from the source. Unfortunately Naish affiliates are not telling anything here, but just trolling. May I ask about your negative experience with Naish?
- "Naish have demonstrated show that the product is capable of doing what they say it can - ie get going in sub 10 knots" - I will agree when I see this demonstration. I have seen Naish demonstrated his product at 14 knots wind. I have not seen Naish demonstration at sub 10 knots. If Naish says wind was under 10 knots it does not mean wind was under 10 knots. Do you have a video of you flying Naish under 10 knots?
- "I can get it going with a much smaller sail and in much lighter winds than I can sail with conventional gear (2-3 knots less and 1-2m sail area less), and that was the take-home message for me." The same for NP, JP, Starboard, and all other foiling products. The different in wind speed may be more significant if to compare Naish vs Starboard. You improve your surfing with foil regardless if your surfing was good or not. Naish has more room for improvement, for example, it needs light wind performance improvement.
- "Sail these foils in lighter conditions that would have you not planing with conventional gear." FYI, I am 80 kg and I can plane on a conventional windsurfer gear at 9 knots wind. Naish did not demonstrate foiling at 9 knots wind. This is why I did not buy Naish foil because it does not improve my light wind sailing. Indeed you may have a different conventional gear so even Naish foil can improve it.
- "That was what Naish were trying to promote." Correct. Conventional Naish gear is not so good so Naish is promoting his hydrofoil that is an improvement compare to Naish conventional gear. But I agree with Naish that for the price it finds some customers. I would not buy Naish just for learning because I would not be using it in a few weeks because I would buy the real high performing foil.
- "I'm not trading mine in or asking for money back as it's doing what they said it would - for me." I think it should be an option for all the consumer products to return with no questions asked so you do not need to explain to Naish affiliates why you are returning. And we can read here these affiliate who or similar kind will be communicating with you on the reasons for your return. Would it be a correct assumption: you cannot return to Naish even you want to return?
